NYPD's Finest?

I think not…

Police fire 50 rounds, kill groom on day of wedding
November 25, 2006

NEW YORK (AP) – Police fired 50 rounds Saturday at a car of unarmed men leaving a bachelor party at a strip club, killing the groom on his wedding day in a shooting that drew a furious outcry from family members and community leaders.

The spray of bullets hit the car 21 times, after the vehicle rammed into an undercover officer and then an unmarked NYPD minivan twice, police said. Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly would not say if the collisions were what prompted police to open fire.

It was too early to say whether the shooting was justified, Kelly said. (Watch police give their view of the shooting Video)

Police thought one of the men in the car might have had a gun. But armed with a search warrant, police found no weapons.

“Although it is too early to draw conclusions about this morning’s shootings … we know that the NYPD officers on the scene had reason to believe that an altercation involving a firearm was about to happen and were trying to stop it,” Mayor Michael Bloomberg said in a statement.

Kelly said the incident stemmed from an undercover operation inside the strip club. Seven officers in plain clothes were investigating the Kalua Cabaret, and five were involved in the shooting. The gunfire also hit nearby homes and a train station, though no residents were injured.

A veteran officer fired his weapon 31 times, emptying two full magazines, Kelly said. All the officers carried 9mm handguns.

The groom, who was driving, was identified as Sean Bell, 23. Joseph Guzman, 31, was in the front seat and was shot at least 11 times. Trent Benefield, 23, who was in the back seat, was hit three times. Both men were taken to Mary Immaculate Hospital. Guzman was listed in critical condition and Benefield was in stable condition. (Watch an injured man scream as he’s taken away Video)

Kelly said there may have been a fourth person in the car who fled the scene.

Three officers, including the undercover officer hit by the car, were treated and released. Another detective remained hospitalized for hypertension, Kelly said.

Abraham Kamara, 38, who lives a few blocks from the club, said he was getting ready for work at about 4 a.m. when he heard bursts of gunfire.

“First it was like four shots,” he said. “And then it was like pop-pop-pop like 12 times.”

A grand jury was investigating the incident. Kelly said none of the five officers, who had a combined 49 years of force experience, had previously discharged their weapons in the line of duty. He has not been able to interview the officers because the district attorney must first complete an investigation, he said.

The undercover officers were inside the club to document illicit activity, Kelly said. With one more violation the club would be shut down, Kelly said.

He said the establishment has a “chronic history of narcotics, prostitution and weapons complaints.”

The shooting drew angry protests from family members and the Rev. Al Sharpton.

Sharpton went to the hospitals where the men were taken and afterward held news conferences. At Jamaica Hospital, the civil rights advocate stood with about two dozen members of Bell’s and his fiancee’s family.

“I will stand with this family,” he said. “This stinks. Something about the story being told did not seem right.”

Sharpton said Bell and his fiancee had two children, ages 3 years and 5 months.

At Mary Immaculate Hospital, Sharpton said he was outraged to find the survivors handcuffed to their hospital beds. He said Guzman suffered 17 wounds, though it was unclear how many were bullet wounds, and Benefield was shot three times.

“We’re not anti-police … we’re anti-police brutality,” he said.

Robert Porter, who identified himself as Bell’s first cousin, said he was supposed to be a DJ at the wedding. He said about 250 people were invited and were flying in from all over the country. He said his cousin wasn’t the type to confront police and that he was “on the straight and narrow.”

“I still don’t want to believe it,” Porter said, “a beautiful day like this, and he was going to have a beautiful wedding, he was going to live forever with his wife and children. And this happened.”

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/11/25/nyc.shooting.ap/index.html

You really do hate the police don’t you?

Did you even watch the video? A group of guys claimed to have a weapon, then tried to run down police officers with a vehicle. What do you expect?

[quote]NDM wrote:
Did you even watch the video? A group of guys claimed to have a weapon, then tried to run down police officers with a vehicle. What do you expect?[/quote]

First, how does pointing out questionable actions by police constitute “hatred” of the police? Distrust? Yes. Is that somehow not supposed to occur? Do you trust every official with authority over you without question?

I did watch the video. I listened to the speaker for the police department make the statement that no gun was ever seen but that because they mentioned a gun in an altercation (which could have been just talk if this was a fight…I know I have heard similar especially when someone is being ganged up on as a threat), it was assumed that they had a weapon.

They were followed after they left the strip club in a car by an undercover officer. “Undercover officer 1” walked in front of the car as they were pulling out (they didn’t mention why he did this) and was hit by the car. The car then hit a police mini-van. 50 rounds were then fired into the Nissan (from the sounds of things, the attempt by the police was to box the car in considering it was described by the end of that tape that another cop car was coming down the other end of street at the same time the mini-police van pulled in front of the Nissan).

No gun was found. We can argue about how “innocent” these guys were, but the one thing that seems to be fact, is that 50 rounds were fired into a car filled with unarmed men.

“Yo, go get my gun.” was the comment that was overheard by the undercover cop. Based on this, 50 rounds were fired in belief that a gun was present.

50 rounds.

No gun was found.

50 fucking rounds.

I wouldn’t even fault the cops for attempting to pull the guys over after a near fight where a threat was uttered. However, it doesn’t sound like the technique used here to box them in, have one cop out of uniform walk in front of the car and then a mini van pull in front as another car pulls in back went over too well.

[quote]NDM wrote:
Did you even watch the video? A group of guys claimed to have a weapon, then tried to run down police officers with a vehicle. What do you expect?[/quote]

50 shots into a car on suspicion of a gun? Give me a break…

If they did try to run down (looks like he was trying to flee going by the words of the news conference) the officers does that warrant 50 shots into the car?

Did you watch the video? They said “get my gun” NOT I have a gun.

It would be interesting to see why the two officers didnt shoot while 5 others plugged away.

2 officers that were in a MINI VAN jumped out and plugged 34 shots. ONE guy shot 31 fucking times. Thats over 1/2 the shots! Ummmmmmmm…RED FLAG???

[quote]Professor X wrote:
NDM wrote:
Did you even watch the video? A group of guys claimed to have a weapon, then tried to run down police officers with a vehicle. What do you expect?

First, how does pointing out questionable actions by police constitute “hatred” of the police? Distrust? Yes. Is that somehow not supposed to occur? Do you trust every official with authority over you without question?

I did watch the video. I listened to the speaker for the police department make the statement that no gun was ever seen but that because they mentioned a gun in an altercation (which could have been just talk if this was a fight…I know I have heard similar especially when someone is being ganged up on as a threat), it was assumed that they had a weapon.

They were followed after they left the strip club in a car by an undercover officer. “Undercover officer 1” walked in front of the car as they were pulling out (they didn’t mention why he did this) and was hit by the car. The car then hit a police mini-van. 50 rounds were then fired into the Nissan (from the sounds of things, the attempt by the police was to box the car in considering it was described by the end of that tape that another cop car was coming down the other end of street at the same time the mini-police van pulled in front of the Nissan).

No gun was found. We can argue about how “innocent” these guys were, but the one thing that seems to be fact, is that 50 rounds were fired into a car filled with unarmed men.

“Yo, go get my gun.” was the comment that was overheard by the undercover cop. Based on this, 50 rounds were fired in belief that a gun was present.

50 rounds.

No gun was found.

50 fucking rounds.

I wouldn’t even fault the cops for attempting to pull the guys over after a near fight where a threat was uttered. However, it doesn’t sound like the technique used here to box them in, have one cop out of uniform walk in front of the car and then a mini van pull in front as another car pulls in back went over too well.[/quote]

The OP has a history of starting threads regarding so called officer misconduct. He has even referred to the police as “Pigs” in the title of the mentioned thread. So yea, I would say he has a problem with the police. He probably got a speeding ticket or something, and now he’s being a bitch about it.

Yea, 50 rounds sounds like a lot. Those 50 rounds could have easily been shot in under 10 seconds with a semi-auto 9mm pistol. One officer shot about 31.

Most of these cops have a lot of experience. None of them have discharged a weapon on duty. Factor that in before we go ahead and accuse them.

I think this tragic incident should be investigated to find out just what the hell happened. It’s a shame.

No weapon was found in the car. One guy did flee the scene. I don’t really blame him. If I was in a car that was getting sprayed, I would get my ass out of there too. I wonder if he has come forward yet, and if he hasn’t, why not?

This doesn’t look like it was officer negligence. It appears to be a situation that took a turn for the worst. The reason this story made news is because the the guy that died was about to get married, and there were a shitload of bullets flying.

These men and women put it all out on the line everyday for us. The least we can do is give them the benefit of the doubt before the investigation is over.

[quote]NDM wrote:
Wrote a bunch of stuff…
[/quote]

I’ve never gotten a ticket in my life aside from past due registration. Completely BMW’s fault, not mine, and they payed for it.

[quote]PGA wrote:
NDM wrote:
Did you even watch the video? A group of guys claimed to have a weapon, then tried to run down police officers with a vehicle. What do you expect?

50 shots into a car on suspicion of a gun? Give me a break…

If they did try to run down (looks like he was trying to flee going by the words of the news conference) the officers does that warrant 50 shots into the car?

Did you watch the video? They said “get my gun” NOT I have a gun.

It would be interesting to see why the two officers didnt shoot while 5 others plugged away.

2 officers that were in a MINI VAN jumped out and plugged 34 shots. ONE guy shot 31 fucking times. Thats over 1/2 the shots! Ummmmmmmm…RED FLAG???[/quote]

Dumbass. When they were in the bar, the guy said to a stripper that he was carrying a gun. Go watch it again. I was just doing a search, and all your comments towards law enforcement were negative. So tell me, what did a cop ever do to you? I really want to know where this hatred is coming from.

Red flag? I would say the guy asking for his gun, threatening to kill a man, and then trying to kill people by running them over is a red flag.

[quote]NDM wrote:
Dumbass. When they were in the bar, the guy said to a stripper that he was carrying a gun. Go watch it again. I was just doing a search, and all your comments towards law enforcement were negative. So tell me, what did a cop ever do to you? I really want to know where this hatred is coming from.

Red flag? I would say the guy asking for his gun, threatening to kill a man, and then trying to kill people by running them over is a red flag.[/quote]

Ok I dint insult you. Nice to see that you cant control yourself. I hope you’re not a cop…

He PATTED his side. Since when does that equate I HAVE A GUN?

So I say to someone “i’m going to kill you let me get my gun.” That gives officers the right to plug me? Brilliant!

BTW NDM you have 52 posts. I’m glad you’ve summed up my post history in the prolonged time you’ve been here…

[quote]NDM wrote:

Dumbass. When they were in the bar, the guy said to a stripper that he was carrying a gun. Go watch it again. I was just doing a search, and all your comments towards law enforcement were negative. So tell me, what did a cop ever do to you? I really want to know where this hatred is coming from.

Red flag? I would say the guy asking for his gun, threatening to kill a man, and then trying to kill people by running them over is a red flag.[/quote]

He didn’t say that at all. An undercover cop over heard a conversation and saw him pat his waist…and ASSUMED he had a gun and that was what he was indicating. First, why are undercover cops who are supposed to be watching a stripclub doing so much surveillance and assumption of these guys? No gun was ever seen or even stated to have been held by any of these guys. The closest thing to it was the undercover cop over hearing, “yo, go get my gun”, and then nothing came of it. The guys didn’t go get a gun. They got in the car and drove off which does nothing but indicate that they talk a lot but don’t back anything up…so that leads to 50 rounds?

Maybe the undercovers should have minded their own business more because even during the altercation described, apparently not punches were thrown and it was all talk.

I hear worse walking down the street in my old neighborhood. Some people do a lot of talking. Talking shouldn’t get you killed like that.

[quote]NDM wrote:
PGA wrote:
NDM wrote:
Did you even watch the video? A group of guys claimed to have a weapon, then tried to run down police officers with a vehicle. What do you expect?

50 shots into a car on suspicion of a gun? Give me a break…

If they did try to run down (looks like he was trying to flee going by the words of the news conference) the officers does that warrant 50 shots into the car?

Did you watch the video? They said “get my gun” NOT I have a gun.

It would be interesting to see why the two officers didnt shoot while 5 others plugged away.

2 officers that were in a MINI VAN jumped out and plugged 34 shots. ONE guy shot 31 fucking times. Thats over 1/2 the shots! Ummmmmmmm…RED FLAG???

Dumbass. When they were in the bar, the guy said to a stripper that he was carrying a gun. Go watch it again. I was just doing a search, and all your comments towards law enforcement were negative. So tell me, what did a cop ever do to you? I really want to know where this hatred is coming from.

Red flag? I would say the guy asking for his gun, threatening to kill a man, and then trying to kill people by running them over is a red flag.[/quote]

I’m not trying to get involved in the flame battle here - but I agree completely with your last paragraph. This article seems heavily biased against the police. If it didn’t have the drama of it being his wedding day it wouldn’t even be on CNN. Police officers (rightfully so) have a duty to protect themselves and their comrades when they feel they are in danger, and with what they knew and saw, there was no reason to believe that someones life was NOT in danger.

If I knew someone claimed to have a gun and then he tried to run over a good friend of mine and was acting very belligerant as they were, I sure as hell would have done the same.

Just my opinion.

[quote]kevbo wrote:
Police officers (rightfully so) have a duty to protect themselves and their comrades when they feel they are in danger, and with what they knew and saw, there was no reason to believe that someones life was NOT in danger. [/quote]

Could you explain how you came to that conclusion based on these guys DRIVING AWAY? The undercover cop walked in front of the car. At this point, we still don’t know why he would do that, but it sounds like they were attempting to block the car in.

Due. you don’t know what your talking about, Unless you have been there and looked the tiger right in the eye , go back to your keyboard.

I was and am one of the top shooters in my department and scred 97 or better at the range.

I hit my assailant 2 times out of 17 at the big distance of 8 feet. It changes things when you are are about be dead. Sights trigger control everything goes out the window,

PGA email me, I am the supervisor of a gang unit ina major metro police Department. Go for a ridealong and I will let you be first in the door at a shooting scene and we will see how calm, collected and and what wonderful decisions you make, You are probably right I have only done this job for 24 yeras what do I know?

[quote]JeffreyJ wrote:
Due. you don’t know what your talking about, Unless you have been there and looked the tiger right in the eye , go back to your keyboard.

I was and am one of the top shooters in my department and scred 97 or better at the range.

I hit my assailant 2 times out of 17 at the big distance of 8 feet. It changes things when you are are about be dead. Sights trigger control everything goes out the window,

PGA email me, I am the supervisor of a gang unit ina major metro police Department. Go for a ridealong and I will let you be first in the door at a shooting scene and we will see how calm, collected and and what wonderful decisions you make, You are probably right I have only done this job for 24 yeras what do I know?[/quote]

I disagree, if you are firing your weapon you should be sure of your target. The article says they fired 50 times and only 21 hit the car. Thats 29 rounds flying off into a neighborhood, 29 rounds that could easily have hit innocents. You said that you had 2 out of 17 rounds hit your assailant, thats 15 rounds into the air, but your are firing at a human ,that I assume was firing back at you,maybe a small target.

They were firing at a CAR, that wasn’t shooting back and I think that is a big target to miss. Luckily no one was hurt in the area. To Protect and To Serve , if you kill an innocent you are no longer Protecting. I have friends and relatives that are officers, so I am not anti Police. In my opinion if you fire you weapon you are accountable to where the rounds go.

Before we all get our panties in a wad, let’s wait and try to get both sides of the story. Right now what you are reading in the paper is an article written to sell newspapers. On the other side we have the police department trying to sort things out and doing damage control.

Since I work for a government agency that gets a lot of press, I have some personal experience with this sort of thing. I cannot tell you how many times I have read newspaper stories about cases that I am personally involved with that are blatantly wrong, misleading, or written to be as sensational as possible. I have also read quotes from our own Director or Public Interest Center rep that are inaccurate and wrong. So, don’t believe everything you read or hear - from either side. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

Look, I am also wondering why the hell anyone would need to fire 50 rounds into a car. But I’m also wondering how one officer was able to fire 31 rounds from a 9mm that has a 15 round clip. That would mean he would have to reload twice.

It is little bits of info like this that make me sceptical about the “facts” we are being fed.

[quote]gojira wrote:
But I’m also wondering how one officer was able to fire 31 rounds from a 9mm that has a 15 round clip. That would mean he would have to reload twice.
[/quote]

Carrying a round in the chamber is a requirement for every police department and security agency that I am aware of, so 1+15+15=31. He only had to reload once.

Not that that has any bearing, just being a math/gun nerd.

  1. I think intentionally ramming someone with your car might be assault with a deadly (3500 lb) weapon.

  2. Anybody Al Sharpton ever defended is guilty as hell.

I’ve been trained at a high level with defensive pistol use, and the 50 rounds isn’t that disturbing. If they had a right to shoot, the number of rounds is irrelevant.

If they had no right to shoot, one round is excessive. It’s not the number, but whether they should have fired in the first place.

With a few officers, 50 rounds could be fired in 5 seconds, not 10.

But that’s not the point, even though people always focus on it. The point is I don’t think they should have even fired.

What makes a shooting legitimate or not, is often hard to understand for an untrained individual. For instance, and average person can cover 21 + ft. plus in under two seconds. this puts a police officer at risk if a person doesn’t comply with commands.

A person with a concealed knife could be a lethal threat and appear unarmed. Testing has shown even older, arthritic people could cover 7 yards in less than two seconds.

As for a car, there are multiple factors, but in this case it looks like the cops screwed up big time with the information listed.

[quote]gojira wrote:
Before we all get our panties in a wad, let’s wait and try to get both sides of the story. Right now what you are reading in the paper is an article written to sell newspapers. On the other side we have the police department trying to sort things out and doing damage control.

Since I work for a government agency that gets a lot of press, I have some personal experience with this sort of thing. I cannot tell you how many times I have read newspaper stories about cases that I am personally involved with that are blatantly wrong, misleading, or written to be as sensational as possible. I have also read quotes from our own Director or Public Interest Center rep that are inaccurate and wrong. So, don’t believe everything you read or hear - from either side. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

Look, I am also wondering why the hell anyone would need to fire 50 rounds into a car. But I’m also wondering how one officer was able to fire 31 rounds from a 9mm that has a 15 round clip. That would mean he would have to reload twice.

It is little bits of info like this that make me sceptical about the “facts” we are being fed.

[/quote]

As said, a round is chambered and the magazine holds 15 rounds. The term clip isn’t accurate and often misused.