Novice Masters Level Lifter, Snatch Help

NewWorldMan · May 13, 2010, 6:09pm

I am struggling ‘getting under the bar’ on my snatch. I tend to power snatch then overhead squat (I think I was initially doing the squat after the snatch to get used to overhead squatting the weight.) I have tried the last two workouts (plus work at home w/pvc pipe) to work on initiating my squat sooner to get under the bar - bu he video evidence suggests I’m not getting it.

Any help would be greatly appreciated (sorry for the poor quality BlackBerry phone video).

Here’s from a few weeks back in April:

These are from two days ago:

Here’s some cleans as well ( if any cares to comment/correct):

April:

recent:

Currently I have a 165 back squat/ 110x3 front squat/195 conventional deadlift; I managed to power clean 63.5 once, power clean 87.5, jerk 90.

I lift Tuesday/Thursday evening at a club with a Sr. Coach (he’s been away for a few weeks) who is great w/coaching points but hasn’t offered any programming advice.

I also lift Saturday AM at a local high school (inferior equipment - power bar and a few composite rubber bumper plates.)

I have been focusing on the full lifts after full broomstick/bar only warm up Tues/Thurs. and usually finishing up w/front squats.

Saturday (due to no coaching/inferior equip.) I usually warm up my snatch and stop around 95 lbs, then squat (cycle 3x5,3x3,5/3/1), bench and/or standing press (similar cycle to squat), power clean → high pulls → clean deadlift, then finish up w/dips:pullups and some ab work.

Coach wants to take a full team to the Keystone games at the end of July, so this would be a first competition for me. This is still 10 weeks out - is my current ‘programming’ sufficient or should I alter my training/meet prep. in any manner?

Thanks in advance!

KGeorge · May 13, 2010, 8:10pm

It seems we have similar problems. I’m 45 and seeing your snatch in particular, reminds me of my style. You are stronger than I am and with your squat numbers you should be snatching in the 80+kg region with better technique. I snatch 65 but in the almost power position and I power clean and jerk 85kg.

In my younger days, I could power snatch 205 lbs and C& power jerk 285lbs with awfull technique but with a 505x3 back squat.

What has been helping me now that I started olympic lifting (this past year) is “snatch-squat balances” or “overhead squats” or whatever it is they call them. Our gym coach has prescribed them for our beginner lifters and it’s working for them. I have knee issues and I’ve been very slow in improving but what seems to help is good wraps and a thorough warm up.

What you do with the movement is keep the bar behind the neck as in a squat (get it from racks or boxes) push the bar up but only slightly as if you are push jerking but you don’t want to send it up too high, and try to get under the bar as quickly as possible in the full squat position.

I started with the bar until I could do the movement and then it started carrying into my snatch. I try to combine doing two sports and currently I am off the olympic lifts so I just do clean pulls, snatch pulls, etc but come October I’ll be getting back into the full movements. Snatch squats after squats after snatches once a week will be a part of my routine for sure.

Good luck in your next comp. Your overall techinque by the way is not half bad for a rank beginner as you say.

lulupuff · May 14, 2010, 4:00am

Hi Guys,

This could be a good chapter in this Olympic Lifting section. A masters section.

Ok! my two cents worth. I have been involved with the sport since I was 11 years old. Now 51 years old. Coached the sport for 20 years Jnr and Snr. Now I have decided to come out the woodwork and train and compete next year as a master. Kgeorge has a few good points here. Newworldman you should do drop snatch and overhead snatch.

I would also do drop snatch from the front. These will not hurt your wrists as you have proved by doing the snatch. So your wrists are conditioned already. What this exercise does is make’s you move under the bar real quick so this increases your speed. It also makes you push the bar a lot harder into the receiving lockout position. As I think you are lacking in this aspect.

All in all your technique is pretty decent. Remember as we get older concentrate on mobility work as opposed to to much flexibility work. The mobility work counts for more in the masters olympic weightlifter.

All the best,
Andy

PsychBiker · May 14, 2010, 4:20am

I had hernia surgery nearly 11 weeks ago and just started lifting heavy again. During recovery I was just doing bar weight snatches and really focused getting my hips involved. I did probably 30 hanging snatches a day and really enforced banging the bar around my hip. This got me used to the feeling of where the bar is supposed to hit.

I also did a lot of bar weight overhead squats to get my knees loose and flexibility. Snatch grip presses with the bar behind the neck also has strengthened my shoulders and is allowing me to catch the weight and really lock it out too.

Also, when pulling from the floor make sure you are on your heels and your head, shoulders, and hips all rise at the same time.

I started going back to my Oly gym the passed two weeks and they noticed my better form. I already PRd and my legs arent even completely back from surgery.

NewWorldMan · May 14, 2010, 11:20am

KGeorge - thanks for the reply! I incorporate the drop snatches/overhead squats in my warm up routine and often do these w/a pvc pipe at home when I get a few minutes. Looking forward to following your O-lifting this fall.

Andy - thanks for dropping by and congratulations on planning to compete next year! I like your ideas: - agreeing w/KGeorge, front drop snatch ( will try this at home first),mobility work, and perhaps the best idea → a thread to discuss/track the ‘journey/needs’ of Masters level lifters.

Do you have any specific thoughts on mobility work? I am mostly familiar w/Joe Defranco's 'Agile 8'.

PsychBiker - Glad to hear you’re recovering and staying in the game! Interesting idea - snatch grip press BTN - gonna play w/these. Congrats on the PRs! Any vids/training logs?

PsychBiker · May 14, 2010, 3:07pm

^^ No logs or vids yet. Compared to the lifters at my gym, 160k snatches for these guys, I’m lifting peanuts which makes getting 100% serious again a little difficult. I want to get to a 400lb back squat, 100k C & J, 90k snatch but want my stomach to shrink, abs to develop and my 32" pants to still fit hahahah. We’ll see.

NewWorldMan · May 23, 2010, 2:17am

Here’s the program I’ve settled on (3x/week) per Glenn Pendlay’s suggestion for an older lifer

Tuesday:
Snatch: 10-20 singles on the minute (OTM) starting @ 80% of current max.
Clean and Jerk: same as above (perhaps slightly longer than 1:00 rest).
Back Squat: suggested:2x5 (I’m thinking a Wendler style 5/3/1 progression).
Abs/Lower back work
Dips/Pull-chin ups (as energy levels allow)

Thursday:
Snatch: work up to a training max, then back off and get 1 or 2 sets of doubles.
Clean and Jerk: same as above.
Clean or Snatch Pulls: 3x3
Standing Overhead Press: 3x3 or a 5/3/1 cycle

Saturday:
same as Tuesday except Front Squat (3x3) instead of back squat.

Any thoughts on this type of progression?

Any thoughts on how to taper or adjust for a weekend meet?

Thanks!

olylifter106 · May 27, 2010, 9:24pm

I think that looks good! I lift 4x’s per week, so will adopt something similar to that once I finish bringing up my squat. I’m 37 yrs old (end of June) and compete as a Master lifter. Looking forward to seeing some more threads about Master Oly lifters.

Koing · May 28, 2010, 2:02pm

[quote]PsychBiker wrote:
^^ No logs or vids yet. Compared to the lifters at my gym, 160k snatches for these guys, I’m lifting peanuts which makes getting 100% serious again a little difficult. I want to get to a 400lb back squat, 100k C & J, 90k snatch but want my stomach to shrink, abs to develop and my 32" pants to still fit hahahah. We’ll see. [/quote]

My 32" wilL NEVER fit due to the size of my legs

34" with a belt and even then it’s pretty uncomfortable depending on the cut of the jeans…

Your lifts look good OP.

I would video yourself doing bar work with the Snatch,

3 basic positions on toes and one from the start of the 2nd pull

On toes
Head up high,

1st position: bar at just below sternum
2nd position: bar at waist
3rd position: bar where ever it is with straight arms

Focus on DROPPING UNDER THE BAR in to a FULL SNATCH POSITION.

Do 3reps x 3sets at each position at the start of every session. Same for the Snatch. I prescribe this to all my lifters. It’s the best way to learn.

If you can’t do perfect technique with an empty bar YOU WILL NOT DO IT BETTER WITH WEIGHT ON THE BAR. The weight is TOO HEAVY for you to work on technique or the technique isn’t ingrained enough in to you YET. Do more bar work if your not already and drop the weight to 30-40kg and get the videos up. I gurantee after a few sessions of bar work you will be faster, if not you need to just be a bit more patient and give it some time for more bar work.

The weight is light for you, just that your not inrained enough with the technique to pull under it fast without having to Power Snatch then squat.

Snatch Balance/ Drop Snatch is another very useful exercise to do. If you can’t do it fast you will not Snatch a lot of weight.

Not bad.

My lifters will do bar work for another 3month solid before we can rain it back to about 1 set per position.

Koing

Koing · May 28, 2010, 2:06pm

[quote]NewWorldMan wrote:
Here’s the program I’ve settled on (3x/week) per Glenn Pendlay’s suggestion for an older lifer

Tuesday:
Snatch: 10-20 singles on the minute (OTM) starting @ 80% of current max.
Clean and Jerk: same as above (perhaps slightly longer than 1:00 rest).
Back Squat: suggested:2x5 (I’m thinking a Wendler style 5/3/1 progression).
Abs/Lower back work
Dips/Pull-chin ups (as energy levels allow)

Thursday:
Snatch: work up to a training max, then back off and get 1 or 2 sets of doubles.
Clean and Jerk: same as above.
Clean or Snatch Pulls: 3x3
Standing Overhead Press: 3x3 or a 5/3/1 cycle

Saturday:
same as Tuesday except Front Squat (3x3) instead of back squat.

Any thoughts on this type of progression?

Any thoughts on how to taper or adjust for a weekend meet?

Thanks![/quote]

Gurantee you won’t be able to do 20 singles with a minutes rest for the C&J @ 80%…

Theres also a HUGE variance between 10 and 20 singles for the Snatch…granted it isn’t as fatiguing for the Snatch as the C&J, 20 seems a lot for OTM and it would be at the detriment of your C&J imo.

Let us know how you get on.

Koing

NewWorldMan · June 1, 2010, 12:39am

[quote]Koing wrote:

[quote]NewWorldMan wrote:
Here’s the program I’ve settled on (3x/week) per Glenn Pendlay’s suggestion for an older lifer

Tuesday:
Snatch: 10-20 singles on the minute (OTM) starting @ 80% of current max.
Clean and Jerk: same as above (perhaps slightly longer than 1:00 rest).
Back Squat: suggested:2x5 (I’m thinking a Wendler style 5/3/1 progression).
Abs/Lower back work
Dips/Pull-chin ups (as energy levels allow)

Thursday:
Snatch: work up to a training max, then back off and get 1 or 2 sets of doubles.
Clean and Jerk: same as above.
Clean or Snatch Pulls: 3x3
Standing Overhead Press: 3x3 or a 5/3/1 cycle

Saturday:
same as Tuesday except Front Squat (3x3) instead of back squat.

Any thoughts on this type of progression?

Any thoughts on how to taper or adjust for a weekend meet?

Thanks![/quote]

Gurantee you won’t be able to do 20 singles with a minutes rest for the C&J @ 80%…

Theres also a HUGE variance between 10 and 20 singles for the Snatch…granted it isn’t as fatiguing for the Snatch as the C&J, 20 seems a lot for OTM and it would be at the detriment of your C&J imo.

Let us know how you get on.

Koing[/quote]

I manage to get 15-20 snatches @55k with no misses (most sets are on the minute -occasionally longer rests - get to talking or something).

I agree the C&J aren’t on the minute (more like 1:30 in between) and usually only get 10/12

I got this from Glenn Pendlay and he suggests 20/20 but 10/10 for ‘masters’ (I’m 39).

NewWorldMan · June 1, 2010, 12:47am

[quote]Koing wrote:

3 basic positions on toes and one from the start of the 2nd pull

On toes
Head up high,

1st position: bar at just below sternum
2nd position: bar at waist
3rd position: bar where ever it is with straight arms

Focus on DROPPING UNDER THE BAR in to a FULL SNATCH POSITION.

Do 3reps x 3sets at each position at the start of every session. Same for the Snatch. I prescribe this to all my lifters. It’s the best way to learn.

Koing[/quote]

Thanks for the reply/interest!

I am a little confused w/your suggestion. Are you saying do full snatch squats from each of the 3 positions listed above for 3x3 each position for clean and snatch? By chance is the any video footage of what you’re suggesting?

I do bar work as warm ups for my snatches - start w/RDLs then pulls, then a few power snaches, overhead squats - stretching/holding the bottom position - then I do the drop snatches.

Should I be doing the drop snatches with more than the bar weight?

I will try to get videos of my bar work, and stick w/my reps around 40k.

Again - thanks for the help - I AM really wanting to learn - but still learning to be PATIENT!

Koing · June 1, 2010, 9:28am

[quote]NewWorldMan wrote:

[quote]Koing wrote:

[quote]NewWorldMan wrote:
Here’s the program I’ve settled on (3x/week) per Glenn Pendlay’s suggestion for an older lifer

Tuesday:
Snatch: 10-20 singles on the minute (OTM) starting @ 80% of current max.
Clean and Jerk: same as above (perhaps slightly longer than 1:00 rest).
Back Squat: suggested:2x5 (I’m thinking a Wendler style 5/3/1 progression).
Abs/Lower back work
Dips/Pull-chin ups (as energy levels allow)

Thursday:
Snatch: work up to a training max, then back off and get 1 or 2 sets of doubles.
Clean and Jerk: same as above.
Clean or Snatch Pulls: 3x3
Standing Overhead Press: 3x3 or a 5/3/1 cycle

Saturday:
same as Tuesday except Front Squat (3x3) instead of back squat.

Any thoughts on this type of progression?

Any thoughts on how to taper or adjust for a weekend meet?

Thanks![/quote]

Gurantee you won’t be able to do 20 singles with a minutes rest for the C&J @ 80%…

Theres also a HUGE variance between 10 and 20 singles for the Snatch…granted it isn’t as fatiguing for the Snatch as the C&J, 20 seems a lot for OTM and it would be at the detriment of your C&J imo.

Let us know how you get on.

Koing[/quote]

I manage to get 15-20 snatches @55k with no misses (most sets are on the minute -occasionally longer rests - get to talking or something).

I agree the C&J aren’t on the minute (more like 1:30 in between) and usually only get 10/12

I got this from Glenn Pendlay and he suggests 20/20 but 10/10 for ‘masters’ (I’m 39).
[/quote]

A big difference between OMT 60 and 90seconds

I fancy having a go at OTM for my Snatch’s with 110kg. Matse are backing only about 5-6reps! mofo! I reckon at least 50% if not more…but we shall see. I’ll have a crack after the next comp. It’ll be interesting! Granted 110 is more then 80%. Can’t imagine it on the C&J…first 4-5reps would be okay to start but by 4-5 OTM it would be SAVAGE…

Anyone got a video of someone doing this?!

Koing

Koing · June 1, 2010, 9:32am

[quote]NewWorldMan wrote:

[quote]Koing wrote:

3 basic positions on toes and one from the start of the 2nd pull

On toes
Head up high,

1st position: bar at just below sternum
2nd position: bar at waist
3rd position: bar where ever it is with straight arms

Focus on DROPPING UNDER THE BAR in to a FULL SNATCH POSITION.

Do 3reps x 3sets at each position at the start of every session. Same for the Snatch. I prescribe this to all my lifters. It’s the best way to learn.

Koing[/quote]

Thanks for the reply/interest!

I am a little confused w/your suggestion. Are you saying do full snatch squats from each of the 3 positions listed above for 3x3 each position for clean and snatch? By chance is the any video footage of what you’re suggesting?

I do bar work as warm ups for my snatches - start w/RDLs then pulls, then a few power snaches, overhead squats - stretching/holding the bottom position - then I do the drop snatches.

Should I be doing the drop snatches with more than the bar weight?

I will try to get videos of my bar work, and stick w/my reps around 40k.

Again - thanks for the help - I AM really wanting to learn - but still learning to be PATIENT!
[/quote]

Yes 3reps x 3sets from each position. This will help you learn the lifts and improve your mobility in the positions. All of my lifters do this bar none. After each comp they can drop a set. Take about 10-15-30seconds rest inbetween sets. This is also used as a warm up before the full lifts

No video. I’ll have to get around to making one, but there are a bunch by tommy kono etc about how to Snatch and C&J etc already.

Drop Snatch with just the bar first. Focus on speed. Anyone can push press it and squat down slowly. This will not help you your Snatch. If the bar feels fine and you feel fast then stick on some 5’s on each side and keep going.

Yes get videos so people can assess what your looking like. Easier to correct form and see issues with a video.

Koing

NewWorldMan · June 1, 2010, 1:55pm

[quote]Koing wrote:

A big difference between OMT 60 and 90seconds

I fancy having a go at OTM for my Snatch’s with 110kg. Matse are backing only about 5-6reps! mofo! I reckon at least 50% if not more…but we shall see. I’ll have a crack after the next comp. It’ll be interesting! Granted 110 is more then 80%. Can’t imagine it on the C&J…first 4-5reps would be okay to start but by 4-5 OTM it would be SAVAGE…

Anyone got a video of someone doing this?!

Koing[/quote]
Well, this ‘OTM’ workout came from Glenn Pendlay ( cant’ link it here - different forum) not sure if there’s vids out there or not. I know 20 snatches for me isn’t bad - my snatch max is low compared to my strength levels. Now the cleans, it DOES take more than 60 seconds and I only get 10.

Here’s a quote from Glenn replying to a training log…

"And one last thing, dont underestimate the GPP effect of the lifts done on a clock. They might not feel that hard at first, but once you have the weight adjusted up to the right level, and maybe even go from 10 to 20 reps of each lift, its a killer. Myself and Donny Shankle have done 140kg and 142.5kg respectively for 20 reps in 20 minutes on the snatch, and I think we both saw Jesus by the end. I had the puke bucket waiting at the edge of the platform, although I didnt use it. Caleb Ward did 160kg for 20 singles in 20 mnutes on the clean and jerk, his max at the time was I think 185kg. You have to be in damn good physical condition to do that. We had a heart rate moniter on a lifter who did 100kg for 20 singles in about 18 minutes, back in around 2001-2002. His max was 110kg. by the 5th or 6th minute his pulse was over 160, by the second 10 minutes I believe I remember that it stayed in the 165 to 195 range the whole time. And I dont remember him being nearly as smoked as Me, or Donny, or Caleb when he was done. I guarantee you we were all in fairly good overall condition from this type of training alone.

In any event, good luck with your training, ill be interested to see your blog.

glenn "

Another:
"Its fairly deceptive. You have to be in pretty good shape to do it with weights in the 85% range, and 85 to 90% is probably where it is most effective.

20 snatches in 20 minutes with 85% followed by 20 clean and jerks in 20 minutes with 85%… is a killer.

Once upon a time back when I was strong, I did 20 snatches in 20 minutes with 140kg. At the time this was about 85% of my max. I felt so sick by rep 13 or 14 that i brought a trash can over to the side of the platform just in case. Dont think I ever actually threw up, but I was close. Not sure how much of this was me being out of shape and how much of it was the workout being hard. But I was doing squats with bands and chains at the time, 10 doubles, at a one set per minute pace where the weight at the bottom was about 450-500lbs and the weight at the top was over 700, and moving them all fast right up to the last set, so I couldnt have been THAT out of shape…

Of course, several years later Donny Shankle beat that, by doing 142.5kg for 20 singles in 20 minutes, he was looking a bit pale by the end also.

Maybe the most amazing performance on this type of workout that I have seen was Justin Brimhall, who did 125kg for 20 singles in about 22 minutes… at a bodyweight of around 73kg and with a snatch max of 131kg. He was 16 at the time I think, might have just turned 17 but I dont think so… Whatever you want to say about Justin, he was in tremendous shape. The really crazy thing about Brimhall is that he would do things like this, then clean and jerk, then squat heavy… then be able to come back to the gym in 3-4 hours and basically repeat the exact same performance… then be totally ready to repeat it all again the next day. He was exceptional in many ways…

Glenn "

Now I understand the conditioning aspect of this BUT I’m not sure it’s beneficial to someone new to the sport to get sick enough to puke, can’t imagine that much fatigue/mental stress is good for form/technique.

That being said, there seems to be some merit on these 20/20 type programs (i.e. Joe Mills/Dan John/etc.). I am not a SLAVE to the clock but I think it’s a good idea to use the clock to make sure we aren’t getting too lazy (rest between attempts but don’t sleep!).

NewWorldMan · June 1, 2010, 2:01pm