The bar definitely wants to leave your back if you get it up really fast.
[quote]Xen Nova wrote:
actually louie reccomends higher rep work at some times, and re days, hell he’d be the first to tell you “Why the fuck are you doing it if it doesn’t work?”
that said, as far as lower body day, i will do de squats but i honestly get NO carryover from it unless i use some accomodating resistance bands, chains, something. so you might want to try that. It’s hard to get the “FASTER” feeling w/o it. It’s not just the super strong who need to use accomodating resistance imo it’s also people who are already naturally fast. that seems to be you (and usually is with a lot of lighter guys) or maybe you can just use more than 50% of your max play with a bit and find what works for YOU (though it seems to be RE work so go back 2 that if it fits ur goals)
also i got a LOT more usefulness out of jum training. Jump on boxes, off boxes, weighted jumps, etc. Weighted jumps the bar alone can cause a lot of improvement. you dont realize that 45# is a whole helluva lot to be jumping with.
and because i dont bench much, i use 1 arm jerks as my ‘de’ movement but increase the % used, (not 50% de, more like 80%) because its a naturally fast movement but im focusing on bar speed.
[/quote]
Can I asked you something about weighted jumps ? You put the barbell on your back and just jump ? How much weight (as a percentage of your one rep max) do you use ? I read somewhere that you should use about 30% of your one rep max but that really seems quite a lot to me.
teotjunk
To have a big raw squat you need stopping power and reversal strength. A squat suit helps alot with both of these. Box squats build starting strength, not so much the other two. A raw squatter needs starting strength too, but it’s not as important. I don’t think more than 1/4 of your squats should be off a box if you’re training for a big raw squat. (I don’t use one at all).
If you’re single ply, maybe 1/3. If you use double ply gear, starting strength is everything because the suit will stop you in the hole. The box squat is much more specific.
But if most of your squatting volume is off the box, you will not learn how to stop yourself or use the stretch reflex effectively.
[quote]Hanley wrote:
HERESY!!! You’ve received a warning for not blindly following Louie and elite. Repent now or you’ll be forever doomed to the confines of fitness hell.
[/quote]
Don’t you get tired of doing this in EVERY WESTSIDE THREAD ON EVERY FUCKING FORUM on the Net?
We get it already.
Maybe I can come into every goddamned Sheiko thread in cyberspace (where I’m sure you’ll also be) and start ripping on Boris Sheiko? Point out how it didn’t work for me, make fun of people that use it and claim success, and eventually punk out like a fucking bitch when confronted with the fact that I’ve never met him and don’t really have the goddamndest clue how he sets his stuff up?
[quote]ChuckyT wrote:
Hanley wrote:
HERESY!!! You’ve received a warning for not blindly following Louie and elite. Repent now or you’ll be forever doomed to the confines of fitness hell.
Don’t you get tired of doing this in EVERY WESTSIDE THREAD ON EVERY FUCKING FORUM on the Net?
We get it already.
Maybe I can come into every goddamned Sheiko thread in cyberspace (where I’m sure you’ll also be) and start ripping on Boris Sheiko? Point out how it didn’t work for me, make fun of people that use it and claim success, and eventually punk out like a fucking bitch when confronted with the fact that I’ve never met him and don’t really have the goddamndest clue how he sets his stuff up?[/quote]
I’m pretty sure that was a joke.
[quote]ChuckyT wrote:
Hanley wrote:
HERESY!!! You’ve received a warning for not blindly following Louie and elite. Repent now or you’ll be forever doomed to the confines of fitness hell.
Don’t you get tired of doing this in EVERY WESTSIDE THREAD ON EVERY FUCKING FORUM on the Net?
We get it already.
Maybe I can come into every goddamned Sheiko thread in cyberspace (where I’m sure you’ll also be) and start ripping on Boris Sheiko? Point out how it didn’t work for me, make fun of people that use it and claim success, and eventually punk out like a fucking bitch when confronted with the fact that I’ve never met him and don’t really have the goddamndest clue how he sets his stuff up?[/quote]
Wooooooah someone forgot to take their happy pills today. Relax there dude.
Some important differences to note;
-I don’t blindly tell everyone to do sheiko training cos it worked for me
-I don’t say “boris says this” or “boris says that” without stopping to think and question WHY it is being said or whether it applies in all cases and what to do when it doesn’t
-I probably train closer to “westside” not than I do to “sheiko”. Do I call it “westside”?? No, because it’s not. But I have applied some of Louie’s principles to my own training and seen good results.
-Sit down for this one, I didn’t rip on westside. I didn’t rip on Louie. I’m ripping on the fanboys. I’m ripping on the people who read EliteFTS’s latest article and come on telling everyone what to do without actually trying it or thinking about it.
Now, how about we all sit down and chill the fuck out?
[quote]Ramo wrote:
To have a big raw squat you need stopping power and reversal strength. A squat suit helps alot with both of these. Box squats build starting strength, not so much the other two. A raw squatter needs starting strength too, but it’s not as important. I don’t think more than 1/4 of your squats should be off a box if you’re training for a big raw squat. (I don’t use one at all).
If you’re single ply, maybe 1/3. If you use double ply gear, starting strength is everything because the suit will stop you in the hole. The box squat is much more specific.
But if most of your squatting volume is off the box, you will not learn how to stop yourself or use the stretch reflex effectively. [/quote]
This is actually quite interesting and now that I think about it would seem to make sense. Buttt… I’ve recently started box squatting and found that they have a positive carryover to my regular squat. I’ve been box squatting to below // and I typically stick about an inch or two above. Box squatting has really helped me to power thru this since I’ve had to generate alot of force off the box to break thru the sticking point.
How does one train reversal strength? Or can it be trained?
I absolutely don’t think you need a box to build a big squat. I know far too many people who squat very big without using a box for this to be the case. But I guess as you said it’s another tool that can be used from time to time.
I don’t think anyone think that following blindly what someone else says over the web is very clever. I hope you all try different things from time to time to find what works best for you.
Im new to westside, but DE isn’t a westside concept. ME, DE and RE are general strength training concepts, and you dont have to do them the way westside does, if it doesn’t work for you.
The way westside trains, is for elite powerlifters. Most likely your not elite powerlifter, so for you to follow their plan exactly would be like a 130lb guy trying to add muscle with one a bodybuilder’s routine.
The point of DE work, is to lift the weight fast. Your trying to increase the rate of force development, as well as the stretch reflex, and other aspects of the motor program.
The only things that matter for DE are:
1.you achieve fast speeds, and stop when speed slows
2.you achieve high forces by using proper weight
3.You maintain good form
So basically you want to use a light weight, but not so light that you cant generate force, and not so heavy that you cant maintain form.
I believe that you should always lift a weight with as much explosion as possible, except for warmups. If your doing a set of 5 with 80% of your 1rm, and you aren’t lifting with the intent of max speed, then your holding yourself back.
The only difference with DE work, is that I would increase the speed of eccentric movements, and use something like a foam pad at the bottom to minimalize collision when possible.
so RE work would be fast controlled eccentric/ explosive concentric
and DE work would be near maximal speed eccentric (but controlled) and explosive concentric.
Thats all DE work is, its not complicated, and its not gonna carryover to amazing gains. In the end to get stronger your gonna have to lift heavy weights.
And like someone said, if you have good max strength, but poor speed, then do lighter speed sets, or even better box jumps, and if your good at speed and poor at max strength, then stick with RE work or speed work up to 70%.
I dont think bands or chains are that necessary, unless your really serious and are already experienced with De work.
Also, what im doing since I dont have chains, or bands, is warm-up to near 90% 1rm, rest, then do DE sets with 60-70%. And after a few sets with 60%, I was feeling the sets were too easy, and so I upped it to 65%. Felt like a good workout.
I’ve been using a box for raw squats; simple 5x5 or working up to a max single. It seems to work really well.
I don’t see the point in DE days for me just yet. I need to build a lot more strength and mass before I start worrying about anything else.
i really like what people are saying on this thread…
anyway for jumpsquats
[quote]teotjunk wrote:
Xen Nova wrote:
actually louie reccomends higher rep work at some times, and re days, hell he’d be the first to tell you “Why the fuck are you doing it if it doesn’t work?”
that said, as far as lower body day, i will do de squats but i honestly get NO carryover from it unless i use some accomodating resistance bands, chains, something. so you might want to try that. It’s hard to get the “FASTER” feeling w/o it. It’s not just the super strong who need to use accomodating resistance imo it’s also people who are already naturally fast. that seems to be you (and usually is with a lot of lighter guys) or maybe you can just use more than 50% of your max play with a bit and find what works for YOU (though it seems to be RE work so go back 2 that if it fits ur goals)
also i got a LOT more usefulness out of jum training. Jump on boxes, off boxes, weighted jumps, etc. Weighted jumps the bar alone can cause a lot of improvement. you dont realize that 45# is a whole helluva lot to be jumping with.
and because i dont bench much, i use 1 arm jerks as my ‘de’ movement but increase the % used, (not 50% de, more like 80%) because its a naturally fast movement but im focusing on bar speed.
Can I asked you something about weighted jumps ? You put the barbell on your back and just jump ? How much weight (as a percentage of your one rep max) do you use ? I read somewhere that you should use about 30% of your one rep max but that really seems quite a lot to me.
teotjunk
[/quote]
I do it from a hang clean postion.I just jump up hard.
I do 3 reps per set and never go heavier than 50 kg.
[quote]LUEshi wrote:
I’ve been using a box for raw squats; simple 5x5 or working up to a max single. It seems to work really well.
I don’t see the point in DE days for me just yet. I need to build a lot more strength and mass before I start worrying about anything else.[/quote]
Bingo. I’ve gotte great results with this too.
[quote]Hanley wrote:
ChuckyT wrote:
Hanley wrote:
HERESY!!! You’ve received a warning for not blindly following Louie and elite. Repent now or you’ll be forever doomed to the confines of fitness hell.
Don’t you get tired of doing this in EVERY WESTSIDE THREAD ON EVERY FUCKING FORUM on the Net?
We get it already.
Maybe I can come into every goddamned Sheiko thread in cyberspace (where I’m sure you’ll also be) and start ripping on Boris Sheiko? Point out how it didn’t work for me, make fun of people that use it and claim success, and eventually punk out like a fucking bitch when confronted with the fact that I’ve never met him and don’t really have the goddamndest clue how he sets his stuff up?
Wooooooah someone forgot to take their happy pills today. Relax there dude.
Some important differences to note;
-I don’t blindly tell everyone to do sheiko training cos it worked for me
-I don’t say “boris says this” or “boris says that” without stopping to think and question WHY it is being said or whether it applies in all cases and what to do when it doesn’t
-I probably train closer to “westside” not than I do to “sheiko”. Do I call it “westside”?? No, because it’s not. But I have applied some of Louie’s principles to my own training and seen good results.
-Sit down for this one, I didn’t rip on westside. I didn’t rip on Louie. I’m ripping on the fanboys. I’m ripping on the people who read EliteFTS’s latest article and come on telling everyone what to do without actually trying it or thinking about it.
Now, how about we all sit down and chill the fuck out?[/quote]
I got it the first time!
[quote]rmexico wrote:
If your max squat is 400 lbs and you’re squatting 200 lbs with 400 lbs of force, how do you not catch air? Sorry if it’s a stupid question.[/quote]
DE did nada for me in the squat with straight weight but worked Ok to start with bench for straight weight. Why? Like almost everybody my sticking point in the squat is down low, where in the BP it is lockout. Squatting DE needs bands or chains AND suit bottoms. BP DE needs to be carfeully done because you are benching DE raw. i actually like benching with chains better, and use less band tension off the chest and boards for lockout work.
Still, there is nothing wrong with RE work, and Louie said his guys neglected RE the most. If you are doing RE right you will be beat after 8-10 doubles with 30-60 second rest. Circa max left me on the floro for 10 minutes. DE and CM also made my legs grow even better than sets of 10 high bar.
Final thing. i liked DE work but found transitioning to IPF depth rebound squatting needed some changes. i worked off a low box but still needed to practice not stopping in hole. Big difference between a single ply poly suit and a canvas with boss briefs. When i added in RE work one day and alternated ME and DE the other i made great progress again.
You need to adpat to what your weakness is and attack it in your training.
jack
You might not be strong enough to get any benefit.
I don’t like DE upper work, and I think DE bench has come under much fire lately…so stick with RE work.
As for me, athletically, I find jumping does more than DE squats.
But…for DLing, DE work has a positive carryover, if for no other reason than perfecting form.
Some added thoughts from me…
DE work for conventional deadlifts seems to work very very well.
Regular (non DE/ME) sets of 5 off a box are working really well for my squat at the moment.
DE bench work has helped to an extent, but alot of guys in my gym are now seeing good results using chains for sets of 3-5 and doing between 5-10 sets. Maybe up around 70% or so. I plan on testing it out soon myself too.
Also;
Using a box has helped me actually use my glutes and hams, strengthen my lower and upper back enough so I no longer cave coming out of the hole, and it doesn’t irritate my hips even with a wide stance.
I even use it to warm up on “free squat” days.
Instead of using DE on the bench press, I tend to set personal goals in the 6-8 range, strive to move it fast and kick up the weight EVER so slowly. This gives me the stimulation I need hypertrophy-wise and helps me work on form.
Either that or just bench heavy once a week, with light triceps and shoulders, and bomb the shit out of your shoulders and tri’s on DE/RE day. Probably wouldn’t work too great for experienced guys, but for someone who’s just getting started (i.e. me) it seems to work fairly well.
What made me tought DE work might do the trick for was because of my sticking point in both the squat and the bench.
On the bench, I tend to lose it in the middle, still of the chest but just before my triceps really kicks in. I tought a little more speed could help me get over this sticking point.
On the squat it is the same story, I can get it out of the hole but if I miss it, I know it halfway trough.
I’m not strong nor big, still chasing my 2xBw Squat and getting better on the Dl. Anyway, I’m going back to RE stuff for now. Good to hear a lot of opinions.