Dr mark gordons protocol is 40-60mg of test E a week.
No, it isnāt. He likes to get guys at the high end of normal. I know what protocols he uses since I interviewed him on YouTube and speak to him on a regular basis.
I agree with you a 100% on this, along with the
T:E2 ratio Iāve been saying for a while. It has been labeled as Bro science for a while, Iām glad it is finally getting the importance it deserves.
To give you an idea, the period I felt the best was when I was on Anastrazole monotherapy and my total T was only 550.
But my E2 was below 10, giving me obvious low E2 sides.
The thing we donāt agree on is that, beyond the ratio, E2 can give sides when out of a reasonable range, both high or low.
And most of all, what Iām keen on, is long term health. We donāt have safety studies regarding super high levels of T and E2 on the long run.
OK, question for you:
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Guy has E2 of 7 ng/dL. Complains of joint pain and low libido. I think this one is obvious, right?
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Another guy has Total T of 220, free T of 8, and E2 of 70. Complains of lack of libido. What do YOU do here and what can you tell about this patient without even seeing him (Iāll give you my answer later). What is the cause of him not feeling well?
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Another guy has free T of 55 and E2 of 110. Says heās never felt better and has sex 2-3 times a day with ease at 52 years old. But his E2 is āhighā, right?
Ooh I know this one
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Hahahahahaha!!!
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1- Obvious here.
2- This is probably telling you thereās an underlying issue or pathology. Could be sleep, alcohol or drug abuse. Heās probably significantly overweight.
He canāt feel well with that T:E2 ratio.
Itās just guessing work here, Iām not a doctor and I donāt have experience in the field.
3- I would be concerned of both his free T and E2, as said before. We donāt know how itās gonna impact his life on the long run. Same thing I would do with someone doing mild body-building cycles.
Iāve been there and I felt great the first year of abusing testosterone and DHT compounds.
Then the body started telling me I needed to stop.
Ah, and I forgot we donāt know how organs and tissues will react to such amount of hormones at an older age (60-70) especially the heart.
But someone will probably tell me he prefers to die at 60 and have sex every day.
It may be the old way of thinking, but tell that to Nelson Vergel, he has been on TRT for decades and started encountering problems, his libido vanished and mental decline. He had tried HCG years earlier with bad results, but revisited HCG and it brought back everything he had lost.
Nelson only gets the full benefits with TRT with HCG, he is against using AIās.
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Yes, this one is obvious
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In the vast majority of cases where you are seeing tanked testosterone levels and elevated estrogen levels, it is due to obesity. The obesity itself will lower testosterone levels and raise estrogen due to heavy aromatase. Bringing up T levels, getting them slowly exercising, and improving diet/nutrition will get them improved.
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āHigh T and E2ā, right? We have no long term studies, right? However, think of it this way. In over 80 years of research of the both of them, neither has been demonstrated to cause harm. However, we all know the benefits they provide. The benefits themselves are certain. The potential long term risks are an unknown. I would rather improve my health, increase lean muscle mass, decrease visceral fat, increase protection of cardiovascular health, improve lipids, improve insulin factors, improve cognition, libido, erections, sleep quality, lowered risk for Alzheimerās, lowered risk for Parkinsons, lowered risk for dementia, improved energy, etc. etc. etc. etc. Testosterone and estrogen does all this and more. It will do it for me with certainty. I prefer to deal with the certainty of benefits than worry about a potential risk down the road which we have absolutely no evidence that it even exists.
If I told you that I have a pill that would give you all these benefits, but we just donāt know what affect, if any, it will have in 20 years from now, would you take it? I sure as hell would.
Unfortunately this is all speculation, we donāt know what and when it will happen.
It took only 1 year for me in my early 20s to start losing all the benefits you said and start fighting with the side effects. And that was before nandrolone, that made the situation even worse, and which is now becoming a thing even in TRT.
Obviously I wasnāt having a total T of 1100, it was around 3000, but I start seeing people here on the TRT section running total T close to 2000 on through.
And no, even if it was 20 years from now, which is absolutely speculative for now, I would say no. The idea of leaving my wife in her 40s and my kid alone is enough to make me play it safe.
Everything is a maybe. Leaving my house tomorrow morning at 6am in a snowstorm to go take care of a client emergency makes it 99% certain that I make it back home and maybe 1% that something bad happens.
Improve everything across the board with certainty and maybe have a risk down the line that has not been found yet in over 80 years of research. Iām willing to take that bet. The thing is, my health should be so solid that, if anything negative does come up, Iāll probably be well equipped to handle it, versus turning down all those benefits and then I can only imagine what my health will be like in 20 years. I know things wonāt be good by then.
You have more chances of being in poor health in 20 years by having a deficiency than you have chances of something negative coming up in the future while on TRT. This cannot be denied.
Speculations aside, this doesnāt address people with a higher aromatization like me, despite a healthy lifestyle.
We are down to the same issue. You need to improve that T:E2 ratio, but adding more testosterone leads to more aromatization and decreasing it leads to insufficient androgens levels.
I deal with guys who get free T to 30-40 and then their E2 is over 100. Iāve seen a ton. Theyāre doing amazingly well. As long as free T is optimized the rest is irrelevant.
Iām happy for them, but it didnāt work for me.
Iāve been above a free T of 30 at through with an E2 of 62, so even a better ratio than them.
No AI.
Felt horrible. Anxiety, social anxiety, terrible insomnia, back acne that I never had, irritability, moodiness, extreme tiredness and extreme perspiration just to name few sides.
Even if I was the only with these sides, that would have proved that one size doesnāt fit all.
What was dose and protocol?
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Who are these people? Just name two of them. Iām on here quite a bit and havenāt seen them. Mine is 2000 on daily shots so thatās as high as it gets. It would be around 500 on a once a week trough.
Bear in mind if you have not been injecting daily what you experienced can be caused by the swing of hormones, not from the E2 number.
Yes, Im inexperienced noob but this is what Iāve read in hundreds of case studies. Plenty of guys complaining from these symptoms on once per week or bi-weekly injections. Many of them go daily and boof everything happens amazingly.
However I personally believe some very small percent of guys cannot tolerate higher estrogen but have zero evidence for that.
Iāve had much higher estrogen at some point in my life before I started TRT and felt amazing at that time. My estrogen was running around 50, total T no more than 700 but SHBG was relatively low around 25 and seems Iāve had a good free T that I didnt know what the F it was at that moment : D
Cholesterol is also very good for you but too much in your blood will cause all sorts of urgent problems. Now that I say this I read people dispute this that you canāt prove high cholesterol is the cause of disease.
Same with free t3 itās good for you. But too much you get serious issues.
Itās just not safe to say their is no limit on e2. Until we have studies following men with high e2 and high free t or whatever you think keeps e2 ok to be high, we just canāt say a very high e2 is ok.
Imo I think having an e2 in the 30s - 50s range can be ok and healthy.
And imo ai is poison. In my beginning trt days where you blamed everything on e2 I remember taking just .1 mg dex. It was the worst time.
You better to do other things if e2 may be too high - like get rid of fat or lower t dose as long as free t is in a good range.
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7.5 mg of T enanthate daily.
I keep hearing this nonsense of hormonal swing and side effects. Iāve already answered above and said that several TRT doctors works with bi-weekly protocols.
A steady level of T is not something happening in a natural healthy man.
And it doesnāt reach a total T of 2000, through or not. Period.
@charlie12 summarised it pretty well.
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