I loved reading all this and gives me a few things to consider in the future. Though, Im dialed in pretty well with 1500-1600 TT and low to mid 20s on E. I think we can all agree that we would love to see more $$ put in to research and more insurance covering the cost for us. We all agree we need this and sadly many men don’t have it for whatever reason. So, Im glad youre both advocates even if you disagree on the details of the therapy. You have more in common than not. Great discussion and hijack of the thread. LOL.
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Click on my profile pic (the D) and you will see my FB profile and email address
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To get back in topic, what’s your protocol? Do you take an AI?
Your T:E ratio is quite high.
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I do. my doc wanted me to. I was still having some irritability with E in the low 40s. 200mg T, 0.5 AI, HCG 1000 IU All divided in 2 subQ injections weekly. Usually Monday and Thursday. I lift and am in pretty good shape, with low teens BF%. Im 43 and luckily my SHBG is in check. Usually, my free T runs about 3.5%. I get my own labs every 6 months and my doc does it yearly.
If I lowered my T dose, Id have to drop the AI.
Forgive me for saying, but this is a protocol destined to fail. I’ve seen this countless times.
Question: Do you need to be fertile right now? Is that why you are taking HCG?
You want evidence? How about the hundreds of trt forums across the internet where most the problems stem from an unbalanced androgen:e2 ratio. Injections release in a way that the body struggles to balance itself 100%. Yes estrogen is good and the actual number doesnt matter, but when it is not at the right ratio to dht (as usually the case with injections) problems occur. The problem is not ais its the doses recycled around forums, even the typical ‘micro doses’ guys speak of are too much. The aim is not so much to lower estrogen as it is to slow down its conversion into e2 shuttlling it more towards dht shifting the ratio. As for your theory of ‘injecting every day problem solved’ all that means is you have a flatline level of whatever ratio you are at there are plenty who haven’t had success with that.
I don’t think I fully understand your statement. However, why would you suspect that some men would have issues when they have consistent levels through frequent administration? I don’t see how that can be possible unless the dose itself is incorrect.
When we suggest frequent administration it has nothing to do with slowing down conversion, or being concerned about DHT (the docs don’t measure that either). It has everything to do with finding an ideal free T level where symptoms are resolved and preventing that level from fluctuating through frequent administration. This is why guys are doing so well with the transscrotal cream (which also raises DHT more so than injections).
What do you feel is wrong about it? already have kids, but want the down stream hormone production from LH & FS that the HCG provides.
And, Ill be doing this the rest of my life, so I dont want shrinkage. LOL. True though.
That whole downstream hormone production from LH etc is the old way of thinking, made popular by Dr Crisler and Dr Saya. HCG is not real LH. The subunit is different. Most of the docs I deal with jumped on that HCG bandwagon for quite some time until they began to realize it was causing more complications than anything else. None of them use HCG anymore unless fertility is of importance right now. If fertility is required years from now it can be added at that time. I was on TRT for 4 years, added 500iu HCG twice weekly, which made me feel absolutely miserable but got the job done. I got off the second my wife was pregnant and, frankly, I will never touch that poison again. You would be MUCH better off experimenting with pregnenelone and DHEA, by trying one at a time. I do personally do well with DHEA but prenenelone tanks my libido. Others report increased well being on the stuff. It is very different for everyone.
I would personally ditch the HCG and the AI and simply do the 200mg twice weekly for awhile. If you can do more frequent administration, then even better.
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I need to add this:
When guys suspect it is there T/E2 ratio that is off, they suspect that their T is fine and their E2 is too ‘high’. In practice, what we see extremely often is their free T is not sufficient (we don’t worry about the E2 and we don’t even measure it anymore). Once free T levels are sufficient, the problems vanish.
Having a healthy T/E2 ratio simply means having optimized free T levels and allowing the body to attain a natural balance with E2.
You can say it has everything to do with a free t level sufficent enough, but technically its sufficient dht that stems from the extra free t, but you can have too much free t and therefore too much conversion into dht and thatsvwhen low e2 symptons appear.
I can easily stop the HCG for a bit to experience the difference. I feel fine though. 3 years in this Feb. Youre saying bedroom time gets better without it? Im always up for more boners.
I need to also add:
The normal estradiol range is based on men not on TRT. When we are on TRT we are getting our testosterone levels optimized for maximum benefit. In turn, E2 levels will be higher than the normal range.
It’s amazing that T can be ‘high’, and nobody says anything but if E2 gets ‘high’, since it follows T, everyone freaks out and blames the E2. It just doesn’t work that way.
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What we are seeing with many guys is that HCG will spike E2 and throwing off the balance it would have ideally had. Then again you are also taking an AI. If you really want to do an experiment, ditch both.
Yea absolutely we need it higher and thats where some of the main benefits come from.
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Yeah, the AI is compounded. Im stuck with it.
Compounded how? Mixed in with your testosterone oil or…?
yup.
Oh for fuck’s sakes…really? Sheesh!
You could consider asking your doc that you’d like to try just the testosterone for awhile as an ‘experiment’. None of the guys I work with use an AI or take HCG (unless they need to be fertile right now).
emailed you