I’ll never understand where the mentality came from that one should avoid isolation work if you’re a beginner. We see so many examples of the results of doing this on this very site with all the lagging arms threads and people complaining about their imbalanced physiques. So glad bodybuilders were my source of info as a beginner.
[quote]kingbeef323 wrote:
I’ll never understand where the mentality came from that one should avoid isolation work if you’re a beginner. We see so many examples of the results of doing this on this very site with all the lagging arms threads and people complaining about their imbalanced physiques. So glad bodybuilders were my source of info as a beginner.[/quote]
We’ve been saying it for years. Honestly, if by now people can’t look at the guys with the biggest arms and see what works, you can only blame them.
[quote]Samir wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Yeah…Chad is not a bodybuilder…and bodybuilders shouldn’t follow Chad.[/quote]
I agree. He is mostly focused on strength and health, hence some of his quirks like his obsession with pull-ups.
However, being a savvy businessman, Chad has provided hypertrophy routines in his books to have some cross-over appeal with the body builder crowd. And those routines all include direct arm work. [/quote]
This is what I don’t get about Chad though - why make a book called “Huge In A Hurry”, and then absolutely fill it with ‘sports stuff’. Since when does a bodybuilder care about all that?
Don’t get me wrong, I think he’s an expert at what he does, but the constant trying to make it some hybrid between bodybuilding and sports performance just gets slightly irritating and undermines your goals (biased). It’s like doing a google search for a “cordless drill” and getting a million articles telling you how a “cordless screwdriver” is so much better! lol
I know that the sort of exercises Chad gets clients to do are great for healthy joints/balanced development, but sometimes IMO it goes too far and that’s where he gets dogmatic as an author. Example; I really wanted to know why I should do ‘standing cable chest presses’ instead of your standard lying/seated pressing (asked in one of his live spills), got no response.
The question was, if you could bench press 400lbs on a bench, why would a cable press make your pecs grow more since obviously there’s no way you’d be able to press that load while standing upright? Simple long term hypertrophy logic, but the sports side always comes out/first (“oh you’re not really strong if you can’t do it standing up on one leg!”)
To be fair though (and not too negative), I have been greatly helped by much of his other stuff (just not exercise selection).
Oh, and back on topic - I haven’t trained my arms in over 3 weeks now (long story) and yes they have shrunk. This is not just inflammation going down, it’s strength/muscle loss.
I know this because it happened in the past too when I followed Chad’s advice (sorry Chad). If you stop doing direct work, then go back to it several weeks later, guess what? You’re not going to be as strong as before, and with the strength loss you lose muscle too.
It doesn’t matter if you can do 50 pushups, your triceps aren’t going to be as big as they can be if there’s un-tapped strength gains to be made. When I stop training triceps, my benching strength goes down (even though I train my chest 2-3 x/week).
I think what some are willing to overlook is the dieting aspect of bbing, eating clean, carb cycling, cardio on a fast, etc. does wonders for eliminating fat and physique enhancement.
I dare anybody to look at some of the national, world, and hell even olympic level lifters and throwers I have been on the field and platform with, who do little if any strict muscle isolation work and call them small and weak.
if they lost bodyfat and leaned up, even if they did no additional isolation work they would look more like bodybuilders,
I am proof of that, even though much smaller and weaker than i was 3-5 years ago, I have never looked “bigger”
my arms shrunk some with losing weight, but I lost 4 pant sizes, my arms look much bigger now.
never in my life until the last year or so have casual bystanders, like the people I treat in the ED randomly come up to me and say things like “your buff/huge/jacked/you a bodybuilder?” etc.
this has happened pretty much by just leaning out some, i have not added much if any direct muscle isolation work to my training.
I agree with X and kingbeef here on this, but since I make a living off of training people and getting results is this: If you focus on the big lifts with intensity and have progression and eat a whole lot of protein and good whole foods you will get bigger.(everyone knows this right?!-sarcasm)
Now if someone who is a beginner wants big arms and is paying me money to make them bigger I would have them do cg benches and dips alot with heavy weight and throw in some curls as well.
Now if someone is getting ready for a show or is already pretty big and wants bigger arms then we can build a routine to add in more exercises designed around said bodyparts.
Bottom line is alot of these routines we (T-Nation forun) are bashing is for everyday people with no aspirations of becoming a bodybuilder just people wanting to become stronger/bigger.
If I am working with a bodybuilder we access everything and work on the weak points first and foremost.
Most beginners need mass so working real hard on sqauts/deads/rows etc. is alot more beneficial than focusing on doing curls and pushdowns which alot of trainees put their effort into.
Everyone on here is on the average more educated and more advanced than alot of these routines are made for.
Does all this make sense?
[quote]heavythrower wrote:
I think what some are willing to overlook is the dieting aspect of bbing, eating clean, carb cycling, cardio on a fast, etc. does wonders for eliminating fat and physique enhancement.
I dare anybody to look at some of the national, world, and hell even olympic level lifters and throwers I have been on the field and platform with, who do little if any strict muscle isolation work and call them small and weak.
if they lost bodyfat and leaned up, even if they did no additional isolation work they would look more like bodybuilders,
I am proof of that, even though much smaller and weaker than i was 3-5 years ago, I have never looked “bigger”
my arms shrunk some with losing weight, but I lost 4 pant sizes, my arms look much bigger now.
never in my life until the last year or so have casual bystanders, like the people I treat in the ED randomly come up to me and say things like “your buff/huge/jacked/you a bodybuilder?” etc.
this has happened pretty much by just leaning out some, i have not added much if any direct muscle isolation work to my training. [/quote]
Who said olympic lifters were small and weak? That has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand. The discussion here is that the people with the biggest most impressive arms train them directly, period. From what I’ve seen, olympic lifters don’t have arms anywhere near as impressive (though some certainly have impressive physiques) as the best bodybuilders so I don’t understand why that was brought up. We’re not talking about making your arms look bigger but about actually making them BIGGER and more completely developed. You do that with direct arm work, which you don’t have to slack on compound movements to do. In fact, getting strong on arm isolation exercises can only HELP your compound movement numbers so it makes no damn sense to avoid it at any stage of experience in lifting.
[quote]FISCHER613 wrote:
I agree with X and kingbeef here on this, but since I make a living off of training people and getting results is this: If you focus on the big lifts with intensity and have progression and eat a whole lot of protein and good whole foods you will get bigger.(everyone knows this right?!-sarcasm)
Now if someone who is a beginner wants big arms and is paying me money to make them bigger I would have them do cg benches and dips alot with heavy weight and throw in some curls as well.
Now if someone is getting ready for a show or is already pretty big and wants bigger arms then we can build a routine to add in more exercises designed around said bodyparts.
Bottom line is alot of these routines we (T-Nation forun) are bashing is for everyday people with no aspirations of becoming a bodybuilder just people wanting to become stronger/bigger.
If I am working with a bodybuilder we access everything and work on the weak points first and foremost.
Most beginners need mass so working real hard on sqauts/deads/rows etc. is alot more beneficial than focusing on doing curls and pushdowns which alot of trainees put their effort into.
Everyone on here is on the average more educated and more advanced than alot of these routines are made for.
Does all this make sense?[/quote]
I can’t think of one person I’ve ever met in my life that started lifting weights and didn’t want bigger arms regardless of them being “everyday people with no aspirations of becoming a bodybuilder.” Who are these guys you’re training that want to get bigger and stronger but don’t want bigger arms?
As far as “most beginners need mass.” I don’t quite understand that statement as I thought EVERYONE who is working out to get bigger and stronger needs mass? I’d like to hear one good reason why someone, regardless of their stage in development, shouldn’t WORK HARD on compounds like squats/rows/deadlifts/bench press AS WELL AS curls/extensions.
[quote]kingbeef323 wrote:
[quote]heavythrower wrote:
I think what some are willing to overlook is the dieting aspect of bbing, eating clean, carb cycling, cardio on a fast, etc. does wonders for eliminating fat and physique enhancement.
I dare anybody to look at some of the national, world, and hell even olympic level lifters and throwers I have been on the field and platform with, who do little if any strict muscle isolation work and call them small and weak.
if they lost bodyfat and leaned up, even if they did no additional isolation work they would look more like bodybuilders,
I am proof of that, even though much smaller and weaker than i was 3-5 years ago, I have never looked “bigger”
my arms shrunk some with losing weight, but I lost 4 pant sizes, my arms look much bigger now.
never in my life until the last year or so have casual bystanders, like the people I treat in the ED randomly come up to me and say things like “your buff/huge/jacked/you a bodybuilder?” etc.
this has happened pretty much by just leaning out some, i have not added much if any direct muscle isolation work to my training. [/quote]
Who said olympic lifters were small and weak? That has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand. The discussion here is that the people with the biggest most impressive arms train them directly, period. From what I’ve seen, olympic lifters don’t have arms anywhere near as impressive (though some certainly have impressive physiques) as the best bodybuilders so I don’t understand why that was brought up. We’re not talking about making your arms look bigger but about actually making them BIGGER and more completely developed. You do that with direct arm work, which you don’t have to slack on compound movements to do. In fact, getting strong on arm isolation exercises can only HELP your compound movement numbers so it makes no damn sense to avoid it at any stage of experience in lifting.[/quote]
It is the “functional” debate all over again. It is how they sold routines. They told a whole generation that training arms made them gay or vain or…gasp…a bodybuilder. Now, we get people with arms that are really lagging wondering why they didn’t build huge arms from squats.
I agree with Fischer on his original point in that when I was training junior high kids, it was hard to get them to go hard for 3 lifts before they were jacking around because none of them really wanted to be there with the exception of a couple kids. If you want to get the most out of those 3 lifts you make them do full body lifts.
[quote]tveddy wrote:
I agree with Fischer on his original point in that when I was training junior high kids, it was hard to get them to go hard for 3 lifts before they were jacking around because none of them really wanted to be there with the exception of a couple kids. If you want to get the most out of those 3 lifts you make them do full body lifts. [/quote]
?
But that isn’t bodybuilding. Bodybuilders don’t play around the gym wishing they weren’t there.
I mean, I really don;t understand the stance some here are taking.
Bodybuilding does not equal “people in gyms who barely want to be there who only train chest and biceps”.
I think we are arguing just for the fun of it now. I am pretty sure nobody including Fischer or myself said anything negative about direct isolation work, and it is not only beneficial at times to whoever, it is absolutely necessary if you want to look like a bodybuilder.
And I don’t think either X or kingbeef are dim enough to believe that you can’t get very big muscles training like a strength athlete.
So what are we arguing about now?
[quote]heavythrower wrote:
So what are we arguing about now?
[/quote]
Probably the fact that as a forum, we get tired of people who do not have the goals this forum is about giving advice about how to reach those goals.
It would be one thing if that advice fell in line with what other bodybuilders thought in majority…but this “ignore arms” strategy seems to only be the new found toy of “functional strength” trainers.
No one knows how to build muscles bigger or better than bodybuilders.
That is something that it seems many find very hard to say.
I avoid the powerlifting forum…because I’m not into powerlifting.
Oh, and please, btw, do not try to paint me as one of those kettle bell wobble board, circuit training WOD crossfit functional idiots.
I got into lifting early not because I wanted to look like the guys on the cover of muscle and fitness, but because I was a short fat kid that got teased and bullied incessantly.
I lifted weights because I wanted to get bigger and stronger to be able to defend myself.
then I became a serious strength athlete, and I trained to be big and strong AND improve field performance, that is all.
and as you see, I have tiny arms.
[photo]34125[/photo]
btw, this is the only direct biceps work I do…puppy curls.
You don’t have tiny arms. But you don’t have “bodybuilder arms” either.
touche,
I said it before, some of the best bbers do lots of powerlifting and vice-versa
I think there are some people on this forum who want to look like a bodybuilder, who could benefit from scaling back 20-30 sets of arm iso work and adding in more heavy pressing and pulling, AND that goes for the strength/fitness guys too, they should add in some body part splits into their training from time to time as well.
one of my favorite coaches told me, everything works, but nothing works all the time.
“I avoid the powerlifting forum…because I’m not into powerlifting.”
I see what you are saying, I get that if you were to drop into the OL forum and start giving out advice to those guys you might get a similar reaction that you dish out to others who come into here.
I am not trying take away anything from bb methods…I can pull up many posts where i have said over and over,
“if your goal is to look like a bodybuilder, then train like one”
but if you want me to concede that a 16 year old 170lb kid spends the majority of his time on chest/tri day in the cable crossover machine, I will still say with impunity that he should spend a little more time in the rack, on the bench, or on the platform.
[quote]heavythrower wrote:
but if you want me to concede that a 16 year old 170lb kid spends the majority of his time on chest/tri day in the cable crossover machine, I will still say with impunity that he should spend a little more time in the rack, on the bench, or on the platform.
[/quote]
So will anyone posting in this thread though. Like you said, don’t do one at the expense of the other, and you’ll get where you need to go.
It’s not like having a big total, and doing arm work are mutually exclusive. And no one is saying they are. It’s just that in this particular forum, it is a touchy subject due to years of “all you need is chins and rows to have big arms”, and those people being literal.
Also, part of the problem is audience. I think a lot of the back-and-forth comes from some people posting advice towards everyone, even the clueless newb. Some people are tryign to save everyone that ever stepped in the gym.
And then other people are posting for those lifters that are going to survive, those that will still be passionate after year 3, 6 or 9.
I mean in the end, all we are talking about is lifting fucking wieghts, but when your serious enough to still be pounding away 10 years down the road, unless they are paying you, why give a shit about the newb that only does curls? I mean, shouldn’t you expect someone who wants it to figure at least some of this shit out for himself?
Honest question. Do you care about and try and save everyone? Or shoudl you wait until someone shows at least dermination, even if they have failed to progress, but at least kept coming back and trying, before you try and save them?
wtf am I even talking about anymore?
@ X and Kngbeef again, I agree with you. I am just making them realize that they need t focus their attention on how to get big and not copy an already big guy on what he does.
X a question, I remember reading about how you “evolved into the HS machines” over a period of time right?
So if a newbie comes along and asks you how to get big like +75lbs big, would you have him do your routine as your doing now or something different? Because if you answer something different then you are agreeing with me just maybe not in my methods.
By the way in the weightroom I train people to get strong. I don’t do functional crap with them. If I feel someone could benefit with a better work capacity we work with the tire, sled and sprints.
@ everyone I never said don’t do direct arm work-that is silly. Just that the routines you are bashing on are not geared in the first place for Bodybuilders.