There has been alot of posts with regards to arm training and I thought I would post mine. I think some writers are either misunderstood or flat out wrong when it comes to arm work. I hear alot of people saying arm work is overrated and not needed. This is flat out wrong. Im guessing guys who are pushing this type of training dont do much manual labor or intensive athletics like wrestling, strongman etc. I have a training partner who cant bench to save his life but with his unusual arm strenght he is a monster when it comes to doing any physical activity from farm work to grappling.
I do agree that too many people are doing way too much arm work and time would be better spent increasing heavy compound lifts. But The #1 problem with lack of arm results is not going heavy enough. With all the extra volume from pressing, rows etc people dont train heavy enough. Ive found that weights in the 4-6 range atleast part of the time will bring awesome results for arm strength and size. The arms are trained by most for a pump and they respond much better to strength increases, in fact more so then most other muscle groups. Im a competive armwrestler and people would be shocked how big their arms are at lower bodyweights and its because they train for strength and most dont do any heavy compound work which goes against conventional wisdom. So to sum it up: Focus on strength increases and spend atleast half your time in the 3-8 range. keith Wassungs 10,5,3 rotation works very well.
Curious what others thoughts are and if they have found similar results to what Ive found. Thanks in advance
From personal experience, I don’t know many people with arms near or above 20" who don’t train their arms directly and never did. I think the confusion comes because many beginners think the way they should train is the same way guys who have been lifting for several years should train.
I have never agreed with the current “avoid all isolation work” trend. It’s like some kind of fad lately and hopefully it will die as quickly as kettleballs did.
I think direct arm work is absolutely necessary past a certain point of development. I think it can’t hurt even for beginners. But only if it doesn’t cause a decrease in intensity on the big compounds that should come before it and doesn’t unduly interfere with recovery for beginners whose recuperative ability may not yet be ideal.
I don’t think it’s necessary for someone with 13 inch arms to be worrying about direct work. They could include some, but they could also add several inches onto their arms just by hitting the compounds hard and heavy.
Acquiring 16-17 inch arms should be achievable for most without direct work. Truly optimizing development and getting big probably won’t be.
The thing is, you are not going to change the matter of personal preference with any presentation of study, opinion, internet guru, forum expert. You can hope people join you in your opinion, or your observation of your own results, perceived or otherwise, but it isn’t going to happen.
[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
The thing is, you are not going to change the matter of personal preference with any presentation of study, opinion, internet guru, forum expert. You can hope people join you in your opinion, or your observation of your own results, perceived or otherwise, but it isn’t going to happen.[/quote]
I’m not sure what your point is. If people quit relying on theory or studies as their soul decision maker for every routine they choose and started also paying attention to real world results, many of these debates wouldn’t even exist. Along those same lines, if people were required to post some type of pictures of their progress, it is doubtful these discussions would last one page.
While some size can be gained through indirect stimulation from back exercises and the like, to reach your full potential, you can’t avoid ever doing biceps curls or isolation work. Until someone proves that statement as false across the board, there really isn’t an argument. There is only internet chatter and talk of theory.
[quote]aslater wrote:
The arms are trained by most for a pump and they respond much better to strength increases, in fact more so then most other muscle groups.
[/quote]
While we’re complaining about misconceptions, when will the “training for the pump” thing finally die? Unless you’re like Arnold and you derive sexual gratification from the engorgement of your arms, you should be focused on volume x weight / time with the pump as a possible but not necessary byproduct.
I think this whole “curls are useless” wave is right on the heels of the “bodypart splits are crap” movement. Since when did focusing on something become the inferior way to do something?
If someone’s wanting maximum development, why would the not work the muscles directly?If a law student wanted to be a good tax lawyer, would he just study law in general or focus on tax laws?
[quote]Kratos wrote:
I think this whole “curls are useless” wave is right on the heels of the “bodypart splits are crap” movement. Since when did focusing on something become the inferior way to do something?
If someone’s wanting maximum development, why would the not work the muscles directly?If a law student wanted to be a good tax lawyer, would he just study law in general or focus on tax laws?[/quote]
Until sombody produces a better physique than “the oak”, why is their even a question about body-splits? Jesus Christ… they work people. worked for Arnie, worked for Ronnie, worked for me. Fullbody’s, work great to. The mix works to. Everything works. Hell! for triceps, Kratos might train them twice a week and me 5 times, and both systems work. THE COLOR GREY EXISTS PEOPLE. Everything is not black and white.
ISOLATIONS WORK!.. AND REALLY FUCKIN’ WELL!
COMPOUNDS WORK!.. AND REALLY FUCKIN’ WELL!
ISOLATIONS & COMPOUNDS TOGETHER WORK EVEN BETTER SOMETIMES… THEY DO FOR ME!
I wouldn’t give up my deadlift, my bentover barbell row, my chin ups, my barbell curl, my dumbbell curl, and my isometric holds and bicep flexing for my development because it was a rule and written into the law.
I will break that fuckin law and do what works for me and have the best biceps I can possibly have.
Stop this molding shit! It’s as dumb as agreeing with a political party’s agenda, before you’ve ever even heard & understood what it is.
Im suprised no one disagreed with me yet. Thanks for your insights guys I appreciate it.
What do you guys think of my main point that the arms arent trained heavy enough and this holds back gains as much as anything? Ive seen guys doing curl after curl in the gym with almost no developement but on the other hand have seen armwrestlers do 5 sets a wk total with unbelievable arms with the only difference being the amount of weight used. . .
[quote]Professor X wrote:
jp_dubya wrote:
The thing is, you are not going to change the matter of personal preference with any presentation of study, opinion, internet guru, forum expert. You can hope people join you in your opinion, or your observation of your own results, perceived or otherwise, but it isn’t going to happen.
I’m not sure what your point is. If people quit relying on theory or studies as their soul decision maker for every routine they choose and started also paying attention to real world results, many of these debates wouldn’t even exist. Along those same lines, if people were required to post some type of pictures of their progress, it is doubtful these discussions would last one page.
While some size can be gained through indirect stimulation from back exercises and the like, to reach your full potential, you can’t avoid ever doing biceps curls or isolation work. Until someone proves that statement as false across the board, there really isn’t an argument. There is only internet chatter and talk of theory.
[/quote]
My point was, people simply don’t care. You can show someone all the proof in the world but if they don’t want to believe it, or incorporate it, they won’t.
Proving it across the board will not happen in any experiment. There are huge armed people that do little or no direct arm work. There are scrawny armed people that work very, very hard.
[quote]aslater wrote:
Im suprised no one disagreed with me yet. Thanks for your insights guys I appreciate it.
What do you guys think of my main point that the arms arent trained heavy enough and this holds back gains as much as anything? Ive seen guys doing curl after curl in the gym with almost no developement but on the other hand have seen armwrestlers do 5 sets a wk total with unbelievable arms with the only difference being the amount of weight used. . .[/quote]
Your point is about as valid as this… since I’m German and Hitler was German, than that must mean I hate Jews and I like to have erotic kinky sex. Only the second part is accurate.
Again your generlizations suck! I’ll disagree with anyone that wants to throw them at me. I can always find a million exceptions to these lousy rules.
No direct work for biceps! Get the fuck outta here. The best biceps I’ve even seen were worked DIRECTLY! Arnold, I believed was smart enough to use a whole arsenal of exercises to hit those pythons anyway he could.
Here’s a pic. Show me a better bicep worked with out “direct” work that looks better than this one. I dare ya.
[quote]Go heavy fool wrote:
aslater wrote:
Im suprised no one disagreed with me yet. Thanks for your insights guys I appreciate it.
What do you guys think of my main point that the arms arent trained heavy enough and this holds back gains as much as anything? Ive seen guys doing curl after curl in the gym with almost no developement but on the other hand have seen armwrestlers do 5 sets a wk total with unbelievable arms with the only difference being the amount of weight used. . .
Your point is about as valid as this… since I’m German and Hitler was German, than that must mean I hate Jews and I like to have erotic kinky sex. Only the second part is accurate.
Again your generlizations suck! I’ll disagree with anyone that wants to throw them at me. I can always find a million exceptions to these lousy rules.
No direct work for biceps! Get the fuck outta here. The best biceps I’ve even seen were worked DIRECTLY! Arnold, I believed was smart enough to use a whole arsenal of exercises to hit those pythons anyway he could.
Here’s a pic. Show me a better bicep worked with out “direct” work that looks better than this one. I dare ya.
[/quote]
I understand that the Syringe press is what helped these gentlemen to get those big arms.
See people do direct work for legs and back to bring it up…but for some reason when it comes to their arms,they somehow forget about isloations and training them hard.
To the OP:
I do prechers for 3x8,hammers for 2x10,press down 3x8,shoulder press 2x10,and sometimes I’ll do incline curls for 2x10.I do these as heavy as I can after my chest workout(why there isnt much tricep work,they are pretty tired after my chest)
I thinks some people are drawing conclusions of an uathors entire training philosophy based on an article or two.
Just because an article doesn’t contain explicit instructions for direct arm work doesn’t mean that the coach who wrote it doesn’t endorse or believe in it.
Too many dimwits looking to ride a wave instead of looking at the whole body of work.
About arms- I have observed and do believe that what you wrote about the dude with huge arms with regard to grappling and general labor is spot on. That has more to do with a build that is a product of an activity than anything. People that do X all day will become built to do X all day.
This seems to be a lot like the abs threads that pop up. People can do what they want and I’m not going to be the one to tell them they aren’t satisfied with their routines, but I can’t imagine doing no direct bi and tri work. Even forearm work. I guess I could maybe see getting away without that for some guys depending on what else is done, but I hit those a bit too. There seems to be a sort of snobbery for some where it’s a mark of eliteness or something to see how few movements you can get away with. Big compound excercises are the undeniably best foundation, but I don’t see how it follows that that makes more targeted work useless. I’ve never gotten that.
I think the whole ‘curls are for girls’ thing that some PLers and other athletes preach is a load of crap. I’m pretty sure Kaz did curls. Ted Arcidi, I believe the first man to bench 700lbs, also did barbell curls regularly. Even Mendy has advocated at least doing some hammer curls. Not to mention that pretty well all of the WSM competitors do curls. The moral of the story? As a general rule, big, strong people do curls.
For most people “no direct arm work” is about not neglecting that overall bodyweight is important to arm size and that specializing in weight gain for a good long time can be more effective for arm development than using limited time and energy on arm specialization.
Arm specialization workouts that only use the main compound arm movements like pullups, dips, and board/rack presses etc. are great programs for any level lifter using any type of fullbody or split routine. I remember an article by Alwyn Cosgrove that talked about this and its not the same as saying “no direct arm work” but I remember some people taking it that way.
There is certainly a lot of stimulus to arms from training chest, shoulders, and back but anyone who thinks the arms don’t benefit from any direct work or prioritization is having trouble grasping some very basic biology and exercise science.
Im not surprised that no one has replied to disagree with you and defend the notion because I don’t think any serious lifters or coaches give it any merit.
As far as training heavy goes of course people that rarely or never train arms with heavy weight will get new stimulus from doing so but who knows if thats the #1 reason for lack of progress. Your example of laborers, wrestlers, etc. having superior arm development suggest that perhaps volume is more important.
Point is muscle growth is a complex subject based on many variables and there will always be many successful ways to approach it.
Here is a pretty funny entry on Amazon.com for Poliquin’s book ‘Winning the Arms Race’.
“Someone should tell Mr. Poliquin that the best way to train arms is to not train them! They get plenty of work through pulldowns, rows, and pressing movements. Keep the poundages moving gradually upwards in the big exercises and the arms will follow.
Mr. Poliquin is knowledgeable when it comes to training elite athletes, but his methods would kill any normal individual. I highly recommend Stuart McRobert’s excellent books if you are serious about gaining muscle in a non-professional capacity.” (Gravelle, 2004)
I would really love to see the size of Rob Gravelle’s arms.
[quote]Man O’ War wrote:
Here is a pretty funny entry on Amazon.com for Poliquin’s book ‘Winning the Arms Race’.
“Someone should tell Mr. Poliquin that the best way to train arms is to not train them! They get plenty of work through pulldowns, rows, and pressing movements. Keep the poundages moving gradually upwards in the big exercises and the arms will follow.
Mr. Poliquin is knowledgeable when it comes to training elite athletes, but his methods would kill any normal individual. I highly recommend Stuart McRobert’s excellent books if you are serious about gaining muscle in a non-professional capacity.” (Gravelle, 2004)
I would really love to see the size of Rob Gravelle’s arms.
[/quote]
I’m not accusing anybody of anything, but there are people pushing McRobert’s books all over Amazon. Go to any strength training book on Amazon and you’ll see some cronie…er, I mean…some book reviewer claiming that “This book is good, but go with something by Stuart McRobert instead.”
[quote]OneEye wrote:
I’m not accusing anybody of anything, but there are people pushing McRobert’s books all over Amazon. Go to any strength training book on Amazon and you’ll see some cronie…er, I mean…some book reviewer claiming that “This book is good, but go with something by Stuart McRobert instead.”
Cult?[/quote]
That could well be the case. You can just write anything in there.
I should have actually left that bit out of the quote. The first half was all that was needed.
I just find it extremely amusing when people try to tell somebody with more education, more experience and a better set of arms how to train.
Not that I know the guy posting on Amazon, but I would have a stab in saying that Poliquin has him covered.
