No Burqas in France

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
101

[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:
Irish, that’s a pretty dumb statement. They don’t “stay” with those kind of guys. They are born into it. It is not something they choose. Those who try to do otherwise are general beaten. [/quote]

There are people who are forced to behave a certain way (and dress accordingly) or risk being beaten, but it’s generally not the case in France. Relatively, it’s a free country with an independent and impartial justice that protect people being forced or coerced to do something they don’t want, or beaten.

Veiled women in France are much much more likely to be doing so by choice than coercion. Banning certain forms of dress at the state-level is oppressive.

102


On the other side of the argument, some anonymous Egyptian came up with the following.

What’s more outrageous: women compared to lollipops or men to flies? I can’t decide.

103

[quote]lixy wrote:
legendaryblaze wrote:
Irish, that’s a pretty dumb statement. They don’t “stay” with those kind of guys. They are born into it. It is not something they choose. Those who try to do otherwise are general beaten.

There are people who are forced to behave a certain way (and dress accordingly) or risk being beaten, but it’s generally not the case in France. Relatively, it’s a free country with an independent and impartial justice that protect people being forced or coerced to do something they don’t want, or beaten. [/quote]

That is not what French muslim WOMEN are saying. I would much sooner believe what they have to say about their lives than you.

Besides we all know damn well how gangs operate in a slum area. There is a lot of crime that doesn’t make it into the court system because gangs are dangerous to take on.

[quote]
Veiled women in France are much much more likely to be doing so by choice than coercion. Banning certain forms of dress at the state-level is oppressive. [/quote]

What choice is there when a young girl is forced into one of those things and it affects her psychological development so that when she is older she doesn’t feel like she can function in society without one?

More importantly, how does society figure out when a girl is forced into one of those things against her will and rescue her? There is no way to figure out each and every one. That is why a law is needed because even one girl forced into that barbarity is too much. If they make it illegal it will free all the girls who don’t want to wear it.

104

[quote]lixy wrote:
On the other side of the argument, some anonymous Egyptian came up with the following.

What’s more outrageous: women compared to lollipops or men to flies? I can’t decide.[/quote]

The fact that you muslims have some serious issues with controlling yourselves around women is a terrible indictment of your religion. Islam really brings the worst out of people.

105

[quote]Sifu wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:

It is not my Tory party, I voted for them for lack of a better option but I fully accept that there are still some total idiots in the party. The difference being that the Tories appeased Hitler in the run up to the Second World War as an effort to buy time to build an army. Yes there were people in the party at the time who sympathised with his views (and probably still are,) but if they voiced their views they would be thrown out of the party.

Politics in Britain suck. People in the US think there are no good choices but Britain really has poor choices. I wasn’t referring to the appeasement of the Hitler by Chamberlain. I was referring to the appeasement of the Arab muslims by Chamberlain. Through the Palestine mandate the Tories had control on whether or not the Jews could immigrate into their ancestral homeland. When Hitler put a group of Jews on a ship to see if anyone else in the world wanted to take them the Tories would not let them go to Palestine, instead they sent them back to Hitler.

[/quote]

Politics in Britain do truly suck. The structure is probably better than in the US where too much power is concentrated in the Head of State but the low standard of most candidates is truly scary.

Try reading up on Combat 18 and teh National Front and don’t let the Wikipedia page fool you.

Actually the history of racial violence in the UK is quite interesting. The Skinhead movement from which the modern white power movement grew actually started by the fusion of the existing Mod movement with the Jamaican rude boy influence.
If you can’t appreciate that subtle difference then you are truly lost.
[/quote]

By the way, not from Essex so try again.

You were born within earshot of Bows bells.[/quote]

Actually my Nickname is kind of a meta joke on me not being a Cockney. I was born in Kent and brought up in Hertfordshire. When I moved to Manchester I started following Manchester City football club (because I worked in a bar that got free tickets.)

Manchester City fans always claim that most Manchester United fans are actually from London and insult them by calling them Cockney Reds. So when I turned up at City games with a Southern accent, a friend of a friend’s response was ‘Fuck me a Cockney Blue.’ and it kind of stuck.

106

[quote]Sifu wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sifu wrote:
lixy wrote:
AlisaV wrote:
All right Sifu:

So do you or do you not support locking up US muslims in concentration camps against their will? Straight yes no answer please.

Why would that be neccesary? There are lots of islamic countries where they can be quite gfree to practice their religion without without having to be infuriated by our freedoms. I think that simply reuniting them with their own would suffice. So I would have to say no to that. [/quote]

Even though you suggested it in the past. So you have changed your mind?

107

[quote]Sifu wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sifu wrote:

The George flag has not been banned anywhere, flags in general have in some places, that is different (but still stupid to my mind).

Really?

http://www.goal.com/en/news/9/england/2009/03/20/1166314/arsenal-ban-blackburn-rovers-fans-st-georges-cross

Arsenal Ban Blackburn Rovers Fans’ St George’s Cross
Officials at the Emirates branded England’s national emblem ‘a racist symbol’ last week.
20 Mar 2009 16:39:43

Arsenal stewards have won few friends in one corner of Lancashire this week, after a group of Blackburn Rovers fans revealed that their flag of St George, England’s national flag displayed prominently all over the nation and a source of much pride to many English people, was confiscated as being a ‘racist symbol’.

A group of Rovers fans from the Havelock Inn pub in Blackburn had already unfurled the flag, emblazoned with the slogan ‘Havelock Blues’, at Fulham and Hull City without problems, and the St George’s cross is seen at almost every football stadium in England at every level of the footballing pyramid on any given weekend.

Manchester City fans displayed several last night during their tie with AaB Aalborg in Denmark, and representatives from Chelsea and Manchester United today confirmed to reporters from The Lancashire Evening Telegraph that they have no issue at all with any national flags being displayed at their stadia.

The Rovers fans themselves were left bemused and bewildered by the actions of the stewards.

“When we got there we started putting it out, and the steward came up and told us we couldnâ??t.,” one fan, David Iley told The Evening Telegraph.

“It never entered my head at first that the St George Cross wasnâ??t allowed. I thought it was just that we couldnâ??t put it there,” he continued.

"So we hooked it over the hoardings at the front instead, and the next thing we know a steward was taking it away, saying it could be seen as a racist symbol.

“I couldnâ??t believe it. When we took it to Hull the stewards even helped us put it up. Itâ??s the national flag and it’s absolutely stupid that Arsenal should ban it.”

An Arsenal spokesman explained that the measure dated back to 2006, when a Turkish-Cypriot season ticket holder enraged Greek Cypriots when he displayed a political banner at the Gunners’ stadium in December of that year.

Dan Tolhurst, communications manager at Arsenal, said, “Arsenal as a club prides itself on being inclusive with respect to all nationalities, cultural and ethnic groups. We have therefore decided that in order for all of our fans to enjoy their experience at Emirates Stadium, we are asking that only flags without any national emblems are displayed within the stadium.”

He also confirmed that the ban is lifted for international matches at the ground.

John Newsham, stadium safety manager at Blackburn Rovers, confirmed the Ewood Park outfit held a different perspective to that of their counterparts in London, stating, "We would never comment on the policy of other clubs in relation to flags.

“We have an open approach, providing the flags meet set criteria. For example, flags are vetted for any inappropriate wording which may be considered offensive by the club or any spectators and they must not be draped over emergency exit signs or advertising hoardings.”

[/quote]

That is exactly what I said, the St George Flag is not specifically banned, all national flags are except during international matches. This is due to problems between Greek and Turkish Cypriots (lots of Cypriots in North London, makes for good late night snacking!)

[quote]

I am not sure if I agree that race relations in the US are better than the UK but I certainly agree that there are a lot of idiots on local councils.

I have lived in both and I can tell you that it is a lot safer to go to an all black night club in Detroit than it is in the UK. Aside from random acts of robbery in Detroit I haven’t experienced blacks just assaulting white people like they do in Britain.

Also Americans aren’t all uptight and paranoid about racism like the British are. On season nine of The Ultimate Fighter we got to see a perfect example of this when Demarques ohnson made a smart ass remark about Michael Bisping being a pasty whiteboy and he got all bent out of shape. [/quote]

That has simply not been my experience, I have spent time in some pretty black dominant parts of London with no issue. Maybe it was your American accent they were taking exception to. You didn’t ask for directions to Lye-Cester Square did you?

108

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:

It is not my Tory party, I voted for them for lack of a better option but I fully accept that there are still some total idiots in the party. The difference being that the Tories appeased Hitler in the run up to the Second World War as an effort to buy time to build an army. Yes there were people in the party at the time who sympathised with his views (and probably still are,) but if they voiced their views they would be thrown out of the party.

Politics in Britain suck. People in the US think there are no good choices but Britain really has poor choices. I wasn’t referring to the appeasement of the Hitler by Chamberlain. I was referring to the appeasement of the Arab muslims by Chamberlain. Through the Palestine mandate the Tories had control on whether or not the Jews could immigrate into their ancestral homeland. When Hitler put a group of Jews on a ship to see if anyone else in the world wanted to take them the Tories would not let them go to Palestine, instead they sent them back to Hitler.

Politics in Britain do truly suck. The structure is probably better than in the US where too much power is concentrated in the Head of State but the low standard of most candidates is truly scary.

The BNP on the other hand has a paramilitary arm that is named after Adolf Hitler and the leaders and founders are on record as supporting Hitler and denying the Holocaust.

I have looked all over their website but I have yet to see any referrence to this paramilitary group named after Adolf Hitler that you refer to. I think you are either lying or greatly exaggerating and misrepresenting ties to a group that broke away from them and went off on their own because they changed their policies and became more mainstream.

Try reading up on Combat 18 and teh National Front and don’t let the Wikipedia page fool you.[/quote]

I think you are greatly overstating and deliberately misrepresenting any relationship to C18. This is what Nick Griffen has to say about C18.

http://bnp.org.uk/tag/combat-18/

Like the cemetery vandalism, the attacks on Romanians have been â??claimedâ?? by the neo-Nazi group Combat 18. This was set up by a man who later confessed to having worked for the Special Branch and, contrary to common media lies, far from being some kind of sympathetic â??spin-offâ?? from the BNP, was bitterly and even violently hostile to the party from the very beginning, and has always remained so.

With the jailing of several key members some years ago, Combat 18 ceased to exist in all but name, although thanks to sensationalist media attempts to use it to smear the BNP by association, there is enough public awareness of that name for it to be used from time to time as a flag of convenience by others.

Searchlight magazine, Red Action and other commentators on both the left and right spectrums of the media (including independent investigative journalist Larry O’Hara- see Turning up the Heat- MI5 after the cold War, Phoenix Press, 1994) have stated their belief that Combat 18 was the brainchild of the British secret service organisation MI5, being designed to discredit the BNP, whilst simultaneously acting as a ‘honey-trap’ to attract the most violent neo-Nazis in Britain into a single organisation, where they could be monitored. It is also believed that Combat 18 were used by MI5 to infiltrate Loyalist paramilitary groups in Northern Ireland. In 1998, the leader of Combat 18, Charlie Sargent, an alleged Special Branch informant, was sentenced to life imprisonment for the 1997 murder of another member of the group. This effectively ended the organisation, although a small group of people still use the name to describe themselves.

Splinter group that found the BNP too soft

Combat 18, which was first identified in 1992 when it broke away from the British National party, considering it ‘too soft’,

[quote]
Actually the history of racial violence in the UK is quite interesting. The Skinhead movement from which the modern white power movement grew actually started by the fusion of the existing Mod movement with the Jamaican rude boy influence.
If you can’t appreciate that subtle difference then you are truly lost. [/quote]

I am quite aware of the origins of the skinhead movement, I used to know some members of SHARP. The history of the skinheads shows just how much a group can change.

As a side note. Before they became the paramilitary wing of the Democratic party the Ku Klux Klan was a college fraternity. It was because of the actions of the KKK that the Republican party became strong supporters of the second amendment so people could defend themselves. This is also why the Democrats became very antagonistic to the second amendment.

[quote]
By the way, not from Essex so try again.

You were born within earshot of Bows bells.

Actually my Nickname is kind of a meta joke on me not being a Cockney. I was born in Kent and brought up in Hertfordshire. When I moved to Manchester I started following Manchester City football club (because I worked in a bar that got free tickets.)

Manchester City fans always claim that most Manchester United fans are actually from London and insult them by calling them Cockney Reds. So when I turned up at City games with a Southern accent, a friend of a friend’s response was ‘Fuck me a Cockney Blue.’ and it kind of stuck. [/quote]

Wow! What a fascinating and interesting bit of history. I had always wondered how you got such a unique and exotic screen name. I have to say that is the most interesting and compelling bit of history I have learned all day. I am moved by this knowledge.

109

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sifu wrote:
lixy wrote:
AlisaV wrote:
All right Sifu:

So do you or do you not support locking up US muslims in concentration camps against their will? Straight yes no answer please.

Why would that be neccesary? There are lots of islamic countries where they can be quite gfree to practice their religion without without having to be infuriated by our freedoms. I think that simply reuniting them with their own would suffice. So I would have to say no to that.

Even though you suggested it in the past. So you have changed your mind?[/quote]

I would only consider it as a last resort meant to encourage people to move. Aside from other problems, putting people in camps just makes them a burden.

110

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sifu wrote:

That is exactly what I said, the St George Flag is not specifically banned, all national flags are except during international matches. This is due to problems between Greek and Turkish Cypriots (lots of Cypriots in North London, makes for good late night snacking!)[/quote]

Now why did you have to go and mention Turkish street venders? Damn you! Now you are giving me flashbacks. There was one who used to park his van outside my local every night. He must have sold me enough doner kebabs to pay for the van. They were sooooo good. Now my stomach is roaring and the only meat in the house is in the freezer, thank you

[quote]
I am not sure if I agree that race relations in the US are better than the UK but I certainly agree that there are a lot of idiots on local councils.

I have lived in both and I can tell you that it is a lot safer to go to an all black night club in Detroit than it is in the UK. Aside from random acts of robbery in Detroit I haven’t experienced blacks just assaulting white people like they do in Britain.

Also Americans aren’t all uptight and paranoid about racism like the British are. On season nine of The Ultimate Fighter we got to see a perfect example of this when Demarques ohnson made a smart ass remark about Michael Bisping being a pasty whiteboy and he got all bent out of shape.

That has simply not been my experience, I have spent time in some pretty black dominant parts of London with no issue. Maybe it was your American accent they were taking exception to. You didn’t ask for directions to Lye-Cester Square did you?[/quote]

Actually all the attacks I was thinking about as I wrote that didn’t involve any talking. I had a guy try to take me out on a tube platform. I was just standing there waiting when the train came in, as soon as the doors opened he lunged out at me with a head butt. He got a real surprised look on his face and ran away when I talked to him. Maybe it was the accent, but I don’t think so.

I know how to bloody well pronounce Lester Square. You are not the only person on this board who can use received pronounciation. My father went to grammer school and my maternal grandmother came from an upper class family.

111

[quote]Sifu wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sifu wrote:

That is exactly what I said, the St George Flag is not specifically banned, all national flags are except during international matches. This is due to problems between Greek and Turkish Cypriots (lots of Cypriots in North London, makes for good late night snacking!)

Now why did you have to go and mention Turkish street venders? Damn you! Now you are giving me flashbacks. There was one who used to park his van outside my local every night. He must have sold me enough doner kebabs to pay for the van. They were sooooo good. Now my stomach is roaring and the only meat in the house is in the freezer, thank you
[/quote]

Wow! What a fascinating and interesting bit of history. I had always wondered how you got such a unique and exotic screen name. I have to say that is the most interesting and compelling bit of history I have learned all day. I am moved by this knowledge.

[quote]

Actually all the attacks I was thinking about as I wrote that didn’t involve any talking. I had a guy try to take me out on a tube platform. I was just standing there waiting when the train came in, as soon as the doors opened he lunged out at me with a head butt. He got a real surprised look on his face and ran away when I talked to him. Maybe it was the accent, but I don’t think so.

I know how to bloody well pronounce Lester Square. You are not the only person on this board who can use received pronounciation. My father went to grammer school and my maternal grandmother came from an upper class family. [/quote]

Well you are one up on Bruce Buffer then! Odd for someone to randomly attack you, never seen anything like that except when someone thinks they are being eyeballed. Mind you, the tube is full of nutters.

112

His mum went to “grammer” school. It’s her Sideshow Bob legacy…

113

[quote]Sifu wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Anyway Sifu, to save hijacking this thread further it is safe to say we disagree. Your reaction to the oppression of the Burqa is that it should be banned, I feel that using oppression to combat oppression makes no sense and will only serve to enflame the tensions. We both howver agree that the Burqa is wrong.

When a young women have been raped, had sulfuric acid thrown in their face and murdered for not wearing the burqa that is oppression. Under such circumstances it is not oppression to free women from such tyranny.

[/quote]

I don’t see how that justifies making them NOT wear it. Freedom of choice would be the ideal here. You’re just becoming the antithesis to the evil that is hardline Islam, except you sound just as evil.