Translation: 'Wiped Off The Map'

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
1

Iran’s President Did Not Say “Israel must be wiped off the map”

To quote the exact words of Ahmadinejad in farsi: “Imam ghoft een rezhim-e ishghalgar-e qods bayad az safheh-ye ruzgar mahv shavad.”

Imam (Khomeini) ghoft (said) een (this) rezhim-e (regime) ishghalgar-e (occupying) qods (Jerusalem) bayad (must) az safheh-ye ruzgar (from page of time) mahv shavad (vanish from).

Ahmadinejad does not even refer to Israel by name, he instead uses the specific phrase “rezhim-e ishghalgar-e qods” (regime occupying Jerusalem).

“The Imam said this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time”.

(Word by word translation)
(full transcript of the speech at www.president.ir/farsi/ahmadinejad/speeches/1384/aban-84/840804sahyonizm.htm)

So this raises the question… what exactly did he want “wiped from the map”? The answer is: nothing.

That’s because the word “map” was never used. The Persian word for map, “nagsheh”, is not contained anywhere in his original farsi quote, or, for that matter, anywhere in his entire speech.

Nor was the western phrase “wipe out” ever said. Yet we are led to believe that Iran’s President threatened to “wipe Israel off the map”, despite never having uttered the words “map”, “wipe out” or even “Israel”.

In his speech, Ahmadinejad declares that Zionism is the West’s apparatus of political oppression against Muslims. He says the “Zionist regime” was imposed on the Islamic world as a strategic bridgehead to ensure domination of the region and its assets.

He’s referring to Khomeini’s unfulfilled wish: “The Imam said this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time. This statement is very wise”.

This is the passage that has been isolated, twisted and distorted so famously. By measure of comparison, Ahmadinejad would seem to be calling for regime change, not war.

The inflammatory “wiped off the map” quote was first disseminated not by Iran’s enemies, but by Iran itself.

The Islamic Republic News Agency, Iran’s official propaganda arm, used this phrasing in the English version of some of their news releases covering the World Without Zionism conference.

International media including the BBC, Al Jazeera, Time magazine and countless others picked up the IRNA quote and made headlines out of it without verifying its accuracy, and rarely referring to the source.

Iran’s Foreign Minister soon attempted to clarify the statement, but the quote had a life of its own.

2

Good to know!

Now if they quit stoning gays, give up messing with the internet, stop tracing regime opposing bloggers, allow women to wear what they want, to sing & dance or travel around on their own…

…I might visit Iran after all.

3

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
Now if they quit stoning gays, [/quote]

Meh.

You’re one to talk? Germany outlawed nmap and other tools.

Still, net neutrality is extremely important, but the danger comes from the US seeing that the backbone is mostly there.

There are at least a hundred countries that do the same.

Yeah right! Hypocrisy at its finest.

This is allowing women to wear what they want:

http://www.thelocal.se/9599/20080108/

They can’t “sing & dance”? Where did you get that from?

On behalf of Iran, let me tell you that they aren’t relying on the tourist money to fuel their economy. So, you don’t want to visit Iran; big whoop!

You are missing the OP’s point. People keep claiming that Iranian leaders call for wiping Israel off the map as a justification to attack them or isolate them when it’s clear that the ones suffering from such actions are the populace and not the leadership.

If I said in the 80s that the regime governing Pretoria will vanish from the pages of history, it would not be interpreted as “wiped off the map”, now would it? The fact of the matter is that Israel in its current form is unsustainable. Sooner or latter, Arabs will outnumber Jews there, and there shall be a genocide of epic proportions. Israelis should rethink their laws and attitude towards the Palestinian issue of they want to avoid such thing. Sadly, future generations don’t get to vote.

4

Your point is he wants Israel to “vanish” instead of being “wiped off the map”?

It means the same thing.

He wants them to vanish just like he means homosexuality has vanished in his country. He kills them.

Couple his statements with the Death to America, Death to Israel, Great Satan and Little Satan talk and rallies and I don’t see how any rational person could not see Iran has the worst intentions for Israel and America.

Yet somehow you think that because the proper translation of his speech is closer to “vanish” than to “wiped off the map” his (and the ruling mullah’s) intentions are good.

5

OK

So, the people of Israel = the zionist governament of Israel.

If you’re against Zionism, you’re against the Israeli population.

Makes sense.

Thanks for clarifying the issue.

6

[quote]jeffdirect wrote:
OK

So, the people of Israel = the zionist governament of Israel.

If you’re against Zionism, you’re against the Israeli population.

Makes sense.

Thanks for clarifying the issue.[/quote]

Yes. Most people in Israel support their form of government even if they may differ in opinion from those in charge at any particular moment.

Making their government “vanish” and replacing it with an unknown form of government that is likely based on an Iranian model (since Iran is the one pushing for the change in this discussion) would be bad for the people of Israel and they would oppose it.

Since zionism is a political movement to create a Jewish homeland in Israel I suspect they kind of support it.

Do you know what zionism is or do you think it is some evil magical dirty word that you can use as a talking point?

7

[quote]lixy wrote:
Schwarzfahrer wrote:
Now if they quit stoning gays,
Meh.
[/quote]
what?

Why are you so fond of criticizing US and A if you now apply the lowest measures of morality? Even Guantanamo, which you are so keen to bash (and rightfully so), is a joke compared to middle east high profile prisons.

So the wanna go topless? They can go naked for all I care? I don’t really get it what you are trying to prove through the link. Are you suggesting that women have to be firmly leashed, else they go crazy?

No, woman are not allowed to overtly song or dance. Do your homework.

No, I really meant what I say.
Apart from many posters here who only visit foreign countries with the military or the television, I like to actually speak with the locals.

I find the OPs post rather meaningless. It’s not a big deal if he did say that or not. I’m even pretty sure he said that multiple times. Arabs swear more thoroughly then westerners. It’s not such a big deal for me. Mostly Pro-War PR in my opinion. (HE WANTS TO KILL ALL ISRAELIS!!!)
BUT: No matter what he said or meant, the land is a shithole still, with a terrible regime, that’s what I wanted to say.

8

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
jeffdirect wrote:
OK

So, the people of Israel = the zionist governament of Israel.

If you’re against Zionism, you’re against the Israeli population.

Makes sense.

Thanks for clarifying the issue.

Yes. Most people in Israel support their form of government even if they may differ in opinion from those in charge at any particular moment.

Making their government “vanish” and replacing it with an unknown form of government that is likely based on an Iranian model (since Iran is the one pushing for the change in this discussion) would be bad for the people of Israel and they would oppose it.

Since zionism is a political movement to create a Jewish homeland in Israel I suspect they kind of support it.

Do you know what zionism is or do you think it is some evil magical dirty word that you can use as a talking point? [/quote]

Ever heard of Ashkenazi and Sepharidic jews ?
Do you know how Ashkenazis are treating Sepharidics ?

Ever heard of Jews against Zionism ? http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/

Ever heard of Jews not Zionists ? http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/

Ever wondered why Iranian Jews refused Israeli cash incentives of £30,000 to relocate to Israel ?

Ever wondered why they unanimously said “Jewish Iranian identity is not a commodity that passes from the hands of one merchant to another in return for money.” ?

Do you know what is the current jail sentence for trying to convert a Israeli Jew to christianism ? Or to hand a bible to a Jew ?

9

[quote]jeffdirect wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
jeffdirect wrote:
OK

So, the people of Israel = the zionist governament of Israel.

If you’re against Zionism, you’re against the Israeli population.

Makes sense.

Thanks for clarifying the issue.

Yes. Most people in Israel support their form of government even if they may differ in opinion from those in charge at any particular moment.

Making their government “vanish” and replacing it with an unknown form of government that is likely based on an Iranian model (since Iran is the one pushing for the change in this discussion) would be bad for the people of Israel and they would oppose it.

Since zionism is a political movement to create a Jewish homeland in Israel I suspect they kind of support it.

Do you know what zionism is or do you think it is some evil magical dirty word that you can use as a talking point?

Ever heard of Ashkenazi and Sepharidic jews ?
Do you know how Ashkenazis are treating Sepharidics ?

Ever heard of Jews against Zionism ? http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/

Ever heard of Jews not Zionists ? http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/

Ever wondered why Iranian Jews refused Israeli cash incentives of £30,000 to relocate to Israel ?

Ever wondered why they unanimously said “Jewish Iranian identity is not a commodity that passes from the hands of one merchant to another in return for money.” ?

Do you know what is the current jail sentence for trying to convert a Israeli Jew to christianism ? Or to hand a bible to a Jew ?

[/quote]

And what is the sentence in Iran for converting from Islam to Judaism or Christianity?

We have had far better anti-semitic trolls than you.

You are not intelligent or interesting enough to play this game well.

10

Here’s one for the Zionists lovers (that’s you):

On Dec. 29, 1977, Christians in Israel and the occupied territories protested a new law passed by the Israeli parliament making it illegal for missionaries to proselytize Jews.

The law made missionaries liable to five years imprisonment for attempting to persuade people to change their religion, and three years imprisonment for any Jew who converted.

It came into force on April 1, 1978, prohibiting the offering of material inducement for a person to change his religion.

A material inducement could be something as minor as the giving of a Bible.

11

Stick it in her pooper…
wait, wrong category

12

[quote]jeffdirect wrote:
Here’s one for the Zionists lovers (that’s you):

On Dec. 29, 1977, Christians in Israel and the occupied territories protested a new law passed by the Israeli parliament making it illegal for missionaries to proselytize Jews.

The law made missionaries liable to five years imprisonment for attempting to persuade people to change their religion, and three years imprisonment for any Jew who converted.

It came into force on April 1, 1978, prohibiting the offering of material inducement for a person to change his religion.

A material inducement could be something as minor as the giving of a Bible.

[/quote]

In that case they should be “wiped off the map”, er excuse me, made to “vanish”.

I like how you tried to switch topics here. Since it is your thread I suppose you can do whatever you want. For the record I support religious freedom. I think you should try to go to Iran and try to hand out Bibles and convert Muslims and see how they treat you. Then compare your treatment to how the Israelis treat you.

13

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Since zionism is a political movement to create a Jewish homeland in Israel I suspect they kind of support it.

Do you know what zionism is or do you think it is some evil magical dirty word that you can use as a talking point? [/quote]

Yes, i know what Zionism is .

Jews also know it:

“Zionism is wrong from the Torah viewpoint, not because many of its adherents are lax in practice or even anti-religious, but because its fundamental principle conflicts with the Torah.”

“No one has had to create any antagonism between our Torah and Zionism because such antagonism exists by virtue of the essence of Judaism itself, which can never tolerate the heresy of Zionism.”

“There are many Jewish movements, groups and organizations whose ideology regarding Zionism and the so-called “State of Israel” is that of the unadulterated Torah position that any form of Zionism is heresy and that the existence of the so-called “State of Israel” is illegitimate.”

http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/

14

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote: For the record I support religious freedom. I think you should try to go to Iran and try to hand out Bibles and convert Muslims and see how they treat you. Then compare your treatment to how the Israelis treat you.

[/quote]

You still havn’t answered my question about Ashkenazi and Sepharidic jews.

Would you like to be a Sepharidic jew living in Israel ?

Yes ?

“The Life of an American Jew in Racist-Marxist Israel” by Jack Bernstein
(assasinated 2 years after this publication)
http://100777.com/node/61

15

[quote]lixy wrote:
Schwarzfahrer wrote:
Now if they quit stoning gays,

Meh.

give up messing with the internet,

You’re one to talk? Germany outlawed nmap and other tools.

Still, net neutrality is extremely important, but the danger comes from the US seeing that the backbone is mostly there.

stop tracing regime opposing bloggers,

There are at least a hundred countries that do the same.

allow women to wear what they want,

Yeah right! Hypocrisy at its finest.

This is allowing women to wear what they want:

to sing & dance or travel around on their own…

They can’t “sing & dance”? Where did you get that from?

…I might visit Iran after all.

On behalf of Iran, let me tell you that they aren’t relying on the tourist money to fuel their economy. So, you don’t want to visit Iran; big whoop!

You are missing the OP’s point. People keep claiming that Iranian leaders call for wiping Israel off the map as a justification to attack them or isolate them when it’s clear that the ones suffering from such actions are the populace and not the leadership.

If I said in the 80s that the regime governing Pretoria will vanish from the pages of history, it would not be interpreted as “wiped off the map”, now would it? The fact of the matter is that Israel in its current form is unsustainable. Sooner or latter, Arabs will outnumber Jews there, and there shall be a genocide of epic proportions. Israelis should rethink their laws and attitude towards the Palestinian issue of they want to avoid such thing. Sadly, future generations don’t get to vote.[/quote]

Having the Israel wipe from the pages of time is worse than wiping them off the map…He calling for a complete annihilation and a rewriting of history so as if it never existed…Called by an Imam you say? Shocking, I always thought islam is a religion of peace…
And in case you haven’t noticed yet, the arabs out number the Jews like 20:1 in that region and yet the arabs can’t seem to get rid of them even though every border country and territory wants them removed from the face of the earth.

I am not actually worry about it, the driving force behind all of this hate is islam. Islam is divided and driven by pure hate, it is self destructing before our very eyes…One of two things will happen, there will be a drastic change in islam itself, which mush happen in order to survive; or it will do itself in. One thing is certain, it cannot and will not stand as it is right now.

16

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
lixy wrote:
Schwarzfahrer wrote:
Now if they quit stoning gays,
Meh.

what? [/quote]

You heard me.

Anti hacker tool laws? WTF?

It’s bloody binaries to test networks. The people passing these laws don’t have the tiniest clue about what they’re doing.

What’s next? Ban cryptography?

[quote]There are at least a hundred countries that do the same.

Why are you so fond of criticizing US and A if you now apply the lowest measures of morality? Even Guantanamo, which you are so keen to bash (and rightfully so), is a joke compared to middle east high profile prisons. [/quote]

Where did I criticize the “US and A”? I said that there are plenty of countries that do exactly the same and even worse. For example, blogging in Morocco about how bad the regime is gets you thrown out in jail.

There needs to be relativism here.

[quote]allow women to wear what they want,
Yeah right! Hypocrisy at its finest.
This is allowing women to wear what they want:
http://www.thelocal.se/9599/20080108/

So the wanna go topless? They can go naked for all I care? I don’t really get it what you are trying to prove through the link. Are you suggesting that women have to be firmly leashed, else they go crazy? [/quote]

Ha-ha!

I am saying that in one of the most feminist countries on Earth, people are still struggling to allow women to wear (or not wear) what they want.

And speaking of women’s rights, the Saudis have it much worse. Yet all the West does is give the Al-Sauds more support and weapons.

[quote]to sing & dance or travel around on their own…
They can’t “sing & dance”? Where did you get that from?

No, woman are not allowed to overtly song or dance. Do your homework. [/quote]

Overtly isn’t the best term here. Publicly would be more appropriate.

But saying that Iranian women are not allowed to sing and dance is absolutely not true. Yes, they can’t go out in the street and start dancing, but such activities are very common behind closed doors. In general, anything that might signal sexual interest publicly is forbidden. In many contexts, dancing falls into that category.

A woman can sing and dance with her family.

[quote]…I might visit Iran after all.
On behalf of Iran, let me tell you that they aren’t relying on the tourist money to fuel their economy. So, you don’t want to visit Iran; big whoop!

No, I really meant what I say.
Apart from many posters here who only visit foreign countries with the military or the television, I like to actually speak with the locals. [/quote]

Good for you.

From your post, I thought you were a horny tourist looking for a place with lightly dressed women, singing and dancing in the streets and that can travel alone. Guess I misunderstood…

[quote]I find the OPs post rather meaningless. It’s not a big deal if he did say that or not. I’m even pretty sure he said that multiple times. Arabs swear more thoroughly then westerners. It’s not such a big deal for me. Mostly Pro-War PR in my opinion. (HE WANTS TO KILL ALL ISRAELIS!!!)
[/quote]

If I am not mistaken, the OP started this thread in response to Mikeyali saying that the Iranian leadership overtly says that they want to nuke Israel. This is a common misconception that needs to be dealt with once and for all. So no, his post is not meaningless. It’s a reminder that Iranians have officially rejected the translation, and that the only person with any say in foreign affairs, has issued plenty of conciliatory statements. In fact, even Ahmadinejad cleared up what he meant in his speech shortly after.

And this IS a big deal. The current campaign to demonize Iran is reminiscent of the one preceding the attack on Iraq. Might not be a big deal to you, but to the people who are sick of war, it is very important to get the facts straight. Yes, Mahmoud is a mouth piece, and his attitude is not helping one bit, but he would never say that he “WANTS TO KILL ALL ISRAELIS!!!”. That would be a literal suicide. You don’t go out to the strongest guy in the block and say that you want to kill him. That’ll be insane. Despite all his shortcomings, Mahmoud is not insane.

Damn it! If Iran really called for killing “all Israelis”, do you think I’ll be defending them?

One more thing: Iranians are NOT Arabs.

Well, what he said and meant is important in this thread. This is not about how terrible the regime is in Tehran. It’s about straightening out what he said and meant in that much publicized speech. That quote is being used by belligerent pricks who want to push for attacking Iran.

And I’ll tell you, given the choice between Iran and Saudi Arabia (or Syria, the Occupied Territories, Egypt, Morocco, etc.), I’ll pick the former anytime. It maybe a shithole, but it still beats the regime under the Shah.

17

[quote]pat36 wrote:

Having the Israel wipe from the pages of time is worse than wiping them off the map…He calling for a complete annihilation and a rewriting of history so as if it never existed…Called by an Imam you say? Shocking, I always thought islam is a religion of peace…
And in case you haven’t noticed yet, the arabs out number the Jews like 20:1 in that region and yet the arabs can’t seem to get rid of them even though every border country and territory wants them removed from the face of the earth.

I am not actually worry about it, the driving force behind all of this hate is islam. Islam is divided and driven by pure hate, it is self destructing before our very eyes…One of two things will happen, there will be a drastic change in islam itself, which mush happen in order to survive; or it will do itself in. One thing is certain, it cannot and will not stand as it is right now.
[/quote]

Please say a “hello” from me next time you see O’Reilly.

18

[quote]jeffdirect wrote:
Here’s one for the Zionists lovers (that’s you):

On Dec. 29, 1977, Christians in Israel and the occupied territories protested a new law passed by the Israeli parliament making it illegal for missionaries to proselytize Jews.

The law made missionaries liable to five years imprisonment for attempting to persuade people to change their religion, and three years imprisonment for any Jew who converted.

It came into force on April 1, 1978, prohibiting the offering of material inducement for a person to change his religion.

A material inducement could be something as minor as the giving of a Bible.

[/quote]

Chalk me down as a Zionist lover. I prefer to be on the right side.

19

From your own wikipedia article:

"Orthodox Jewish Opposition

Under Herzl’s leadership, Zionism won orthodox Jewish support. However, cultural and socialist Zionists increasingly broke with tradition and used language contrary to the outlook of most religious Jewish communities. As a result, many religious organizations opposed Zionism, both on the grounds that it was a secular movement and on the grounds that any attempt to re-establish Jewish rule in Israel by human agency was blasphemous, since (in their view) only the Messiah could accomplish this.[29]

Some Orthodox Jews thus retreated into the traditional Jewish belief that the Land of Israel was given to the ancient Israelites by God, and that while the right of the Jews to that land was permanent and inalienable, the Messiah must appear before Israel could return to Jewish control.

Prior to the Holocaust, Reform Judaism rejected Zionism as inconsistent with the requirements of Jewish citizenship in the diaspora.[30]"

Wonder why no media talks about orthodox jews opposing Zionism ??

20

[quote]jeffdirect wrote:
pat36 wrote:

Having the Israel wipe from the pages of time is worse than wiping them off the map…He calling for a complete annihilation and a rewriting of history so as if it never existed…Called by an Imam you say? Shocking, I always thought islam is a religion of peace…
And in case you haven’t noticed yet, the arabs out number the Jews like 20:1 in that region and yet the arabs can’t seem to get rid of them even though every border country and territory wants them removed from the face of the earth.

I am not actually worry about it, the driving force behind all of this hate is islam. Islam is divided and driven by pure hate, it is self destructing before our very eyes…One of two things will happen, there will be a drastic change in islam itself, which mush happen in order to survive; or it will do itself in. One thing is certain, it cannot and will not stand as it is right now.

Please say a “hello” from me next time you see O’Reilly.

[/quote]

What’s auto parts got to do with it?