[quote]AlisaV wrote:
Sifu:
I take Muslim extremism and illiberalism seriously. I am a feminist (yeah, yeah, let the fury begin) and I believe that the most serious problems facing women are often from traditional cultures, and yes, I think the burka is a limitation on women’s freedom and I would not be happy to see it prevalent in my country. But if we abandon our values in the interest of protecting them, we’ve lost. [/quote]
For the most part I see nothing wrong with feminism and I am supportive of the cause. Traditional cultures are not created equal, some are more open to change than others.
You say that you see the burqa as a limitation on women’s freedom. So I am wondering do you only see it as a women’s issue? Do you ever think about it in a wider context?
Personally I consider the burqa to be a blight upon an entire community that damages everyone. Certainly women bear the brunt of the damage but I also think there is a significant impact upon the men and children in a community where women are nothing more than objects.
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If you think it is wrong for women to be forced into the role of a full-time wife and mother with limited education, you can’t turn around and say that non-Muslim woman are failing their duty if they reject that role. [/quote]
I see nothing wrong with women doing more with their lives than just pooping out babies. However a society cannot long survive alongside another society that hates it and has a much higher birthrate. If making women start having babies isn’t an acceptable solution then you have to start looking for other solutions.
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If liberties matter to you, if civil society matters to you, you can’t have the government ban pieces of clothing, and you certainly can’t deport people based on their religion. Think about that, for a moment – that punishes the innocent with the guilty. Don’t you have Muslim friends and colleagues? [/quote]
Back at you. If civil liberties matter to you then you need to realize that in a democracy civil liberties are dependent upon majority rule. What the French have growing in their midst is a seperate nation that finds the French culture, values and civil liberties abhorrent.
What this debate is about is a lot more than a fashion choice.
It is interesting that you would have a problem with deporting muslims when they have absolutely no problem with driving others out of an area or a country that they have invaded. Because of the size of it’s muslim population France sees more attacks on Jews than any other country in Europe. French Jews are leaving France in greater numbers than at any time since the Nazi ocupation.
I have had muslim friends but not many. They like to keep to their own and not associate with us kuffers. My neighbors certainly didn’t want to have anything to do with me. Something that you need to bear in mind is that the ones who would be friends with you are not neccessarily representative of the overall community.
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I’m for moderate assimilation. Moderate, because I don’t want to stop anyone from having pride in a foreign heritage – but yes, I think people are better off learning the local language, and yes, I think that values like individual rights and tolerance ought to be shared even when they’re not part of an immigrant’s home culture. But assimilation comes from hope. People buy into the system when it offers them something, when becoming French or becoming British or American gives them a chance of a better life. When immigrants aren’t assimilating, maybe they’re being failed by society. I don’t see anything in your remarks that would be much good at encouraging assimilation. [/quote]
No, assimilation does not come from hope. Assimilation comes from openmindedness and a willingness to change, a willingness to see something good in your host culture that is worth adopting.
Just so you have some idea of the extremes of ideology that europeans go to. In some of the European countries taking pride in ones heritage can be seen as evil.ie In Britain if someone merely says they are English they will be accused of racism because the PC brigade says that the English must only refer to themselves as British which is a general term that does not denote ethnicity.
My remarks are the result of taking some time to study the ideology of Islam and the history. It is not an ideology that is open to change. That is why if you look at the history of how it has moved into new areas you will see that it has not done a lot of changing and adapting to suit the new cultures it was dealing with, instead it just wipes them out.
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Think about Chinese foot binding. It had been common practice in China for centuries, and then died out very rapidly in the early 20th century. A foreign campaign of educational information about the health consequences of foot-binding caught on among Chinese modernizers, and suddenly foot-binding became provincial, embarrassing, old-fashioned. Nobody would marry a girl with bound feet. And within a decade or two, it was gone. Culture can change. I think Wahhabist Islam is an illiberal culture which needs to change. But the thing is, it can, and it doesn’t need to be by the sword.[/quote]
If you ever look at an x ray of a womans foot that has been through foot binding is it is crushed and parts of it are pushed in at angles that it never was supposed to be in so the foot doesn’t function properly anymore. Or in other words the foot is crippled. In fact it is so crippled that it has to be kept bound just so the woman could hobble around on it.
If we could take an X ray of the psyche of a muslim woman who has been wearing a buqa since she was a young girl it would it would look something like a Chinese foot binding. The bottom would be the middle and up, the front and back would be the bottom, it would be a crushed, distorted and not functioning properly. It also woud have problems functioning outside the confines of the burqa. This is why there may be some women who still choose to wear them when given the choice. What you need to bear in mind is that the reason why is because they have been severely damaged by the experience.
Something that a lot of people in the west are not appreciating about the wahabists is that they are the direct descendents of mohammad and his followers. The wahabist strain of islam is the most unchanged version that there is.
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My point with the Times article is that my country went through a time when it seemed to make war on its own people, and it was a horror, and that nobody should do that again. You cannot treat a whole category of people like a mere problem. [/quote]