[quote]Jereth127 wrote:
Well, at the risk of getting ripped a brand spanking new one, could somebody explain to me where the line is drawn on gear? I can see why the knee wraps are allowed but why is a belt allowed?
And no I’m not trying to be a smartarse, I just don’t know very much about power lifting and I’m genuinly curious as to why raw lifting (seemingly) isn’t.[/quote]
A belt and wrist wraps are supportive; they do not in any way impart energy into the bar.
Suits, shirts and knee wraps are assistive; they store energy and help the lifter impart energy into the bar.
Neoprene knee sleeves are a little bit assistive, but it’s similar to squatting in shorts vs. a soft wrestling suit. It’s minuscule enough that you can disregard it. Honestly, you get more “assistance” from lifting in tracksuit pants, but the sleeve provides more support and warmth for the knee.
Long story short, if you see someone lifting with wrist wraps, belt, and neoprene knee sleeves then you’re seeing what they can lift unassisted. If you don’t want to call that raw because they’re protecting their wrists, spine or knees, then don’t. [/quote]
A clear and concise response that cleared up the issue for me(and many others I’m sure).
[quote]Jereth127 wrote:
Well, at the risk of getting ripped a brand spanking new one, could somebody explain to me where the line is drawn on gear? I can see why the knee wraps are allowed but why is a belt allowed?
And no I’m not trying to be a smartarse, I just don’t know very much about power lifting and I’m genuinly curious as to why raw lifting (seemingly) isn’t.[/quote]
A belt and wrist wraps are supportive; they do not in any way impart energy into the bar.
Suits, shirts and knee wraps are assistive; they store energy and help the lifter impart energy into the bar.
Neoprene knee sleeves are a little bit assistive, but it’s similar to squatting in shorts vs. a soft wrestling suit. It’s minuscule enough that you can disregard it. Honestly, you get more “assistance” from lifting in tracksuit pants, but the sleeve provides more support and warmth for the knee.
Long story short, if you see someone lifting with wrist wraps, belt, and neoprene knee sleeves then you’re seeing what they can lift unassisted. If you don’t want to call that raw because they’re protecting their wrists, spine or knees, then don’t. [/quote]
A clear and concise response that cleared up the issue for me(and many others I’m sure).
Thanks. Thing is, 99.99% of guys who lift in equipment can tell you this just as easily, making the whole “What is raw?” debate kind of meaningless. Unfortunately, the understanding doesn’t seem to cut both ways.
You can understand why people get the shits when they have to go through this every single time gear comes up in a thread. Or why the usual response to “xxxx isn’t raw because people lift more with it” revolves around why the OP is an idiot.
[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:
. oh wait… thats just my squat going to shit because I blew both my knees out from all my raw squatting.[/quote]
If you are made of clay then stop lifting you big pussy.
[/quote]
Yeah Storm, take your 800+ deadlift out of here you pussy!!! Until your pulling 900 without a belt and learn an eastern European language your opinion is shit.[/quote]
HAHAHA. Yea, I will start working on that. I can’t really talk shit about squatting though, since I only do about 185lbs.
belts are not for safety as some claim, to prove it we’ve all seen vids of guys squatting without a belt with no problem. Belts have just become habitual, nearly everyone slaps one on without thinking why am I wearing this? do I need this?
squatting beltless is entirely possible for all lifters, it’s just harder and more chellenging, folks gotta back off poundages they’re used to squatting till they rebuild the strength needed to go beltless.
I agree with OP, RAW should be no belt no wraps, you wear non supportive cotton t-shirt and singlet.
for the record my last PR I squatted 610 not belt, no wraps
as to the argument that “Olympic Lifters wear a belt & no one seems to care”, Olympic Lifting is not “Raw” you want to wear a canvas suit?.. go ahead & give’r a shot
& I would take the position that belts do help deliver force to the bar
from personal experience I know that my no-no-no squat is less than my belt only, which is less than brief only, suit, etc…
So what people are saying is I lift raw = I don’t use a belt and I am more ALPHA than you even if I lift less weight.
That’s all it is isn’t it. A veiled excuse to brag.
I wear a belt due to a herniated disc from a car crash more often than not because if one thing goes wrong I can barely walk the next day. For me a belt is very much about health.
[quote]LikeWater wrote:
& I would take the position that belts do help deliver force to the bar
from personal experience I know that my no-no-no squat is less than my belt only, which is less than brief only, suit, etc…
…I’m just sayin… no need to get mean fellas[/quote]
Not trying to rip you a new one or anything, but I have to query this. How does a belt help deliver force to the bar? I know you can lift more in a belt and feel stronger, but can anyone explain how the belt itself contributes energy in any way, shape or form?
It’s always perpendicular to the force on the bar…
Like I said, a belt is purely supportive. If you think that raw shouldn’t have supportive equipment, good for you. I disagree, since the safety aspect makes it eminently more sensible, and 135 pound lifters don’t have the waist structure to squat and dead tremendous weights without risk. Not everyone is a heavyweight.
Every other sport allows athletes to use strapping tape or sleeves, which are purely supportive and help protect the athlete. Why not us? Is anyone who says “NO BELT! NO WRAPS!!!” actually been through a chronic wrist, knee or back injury?
[quote]Jereth127 wrote:
Well, at the risk of getting ripped a brand spanking new one, could somebody explain to me where the line is drawn on gear? I can see why the knee wraps are allowed but why is a belt allowed?
And no I’m not trying to be a smartarse, I just don’t know very much about power lifting and I’m genuinly curious as to why raw lifting (seemingly) isn’t.[/quote]
A belt and wrist wraps are supportive; they do not in any way impart energy into the bar.
Suits, shirts and knee wraps are assistive; they store energy and help the lifter impart energy into the bar.
Neoprene knee sleeves are a little bit assistive, but it’s similar to squatting in shorts vs. a soft wrestling suit. It’s minuscule enough that you can disregard it. Honestly, you get more “assistance” from lifting in tracksuit pants, but the sleeve provides more support and warmth for the knee.
Long story short, if you see someone lifting with wrist wraps, belt, and neoprene knee sleeves then you’re seeing what they can lift unassisted. If you don’t want to call that raw because they’re protecting their wrists, spine or knees, then don’t. [/quote]
I tend lean toward the school of thought that as long as it doesn’t impart force to the bar, it’s allowable for raw lifting. I know many will argue that you can lift more in a belt, but there are a million other factors that can add poundage to your lifts as well. A bench with a wider pad may allow you to lift more than one with a narrow pad. A bar with better knurling may allow you to SQ or DL more than one with that’s slick. You can SQ more in a pair of Chuck’s than a pair of squishy running shoes. The point is if you tried to eliminate anything that might add any poundage to a lift you would drive yourself crazy. Thus it seems much easier to only restrict those things that add energy to actually moving the bar.
Also remember that there isn’t a single competitive strength sport that doesn’t allow at least a belt and wrist wraps.
[quote]Wrah wrote:
I got an idea. Let the powerlifters squat in a smith machine. That way, they don’t have to stabilize anything. Or better yet, make it a leg press.[/quote]
[quote]Bambi wrote:
…
I wear a belt due to a herniated disc from a car crash more often than not because if one thing goes wrong I can barely walk the next day. For me a belt is very much about health. [/quote]
that applies to everyone, whether or not you have a prior injury like car crash. If something goes wrong in you lift you’re gonna be in terrible pain the next day.
[quote]LikeWater wrote:
& I would take the position that belts do help deliver force to the bar
from personal experience I know that my no-no-no squat is less than my belt only, which is less than brief only, suit, etc…
…I’m just sayin… no need to get mean fellas[/quote]
Not trying to rip you a new one or anything, but I have to query this. How does a belt help deliver force to the bar? I know you can lift more in a belt and feel stronger, but can anyone explain how the belt itself contributes energy in any way, shape or form?
It’s always perpendicular to the force on the bar…
Like I said, a belt is purely supportive. If you think that raw shouldn’t have supportive equipment, good for you. I disagree, since the safety aspect makes it eminently more sensible, and 135 pound lifters don’t have the waist structure to squat and dead tremendous weights without risk. Not everyone is a heavyweight.
Every other sport allows athletes to use strapping tape or sleeves, which are purely supportive and help protect the athlete. Why not us? Is anyone who says “NO BELT! NO WRAPS!!!” actually been through a chronic wrist, knee or back injury?
[/quote]
whether you call is “giving force to the bar” or “supportive” , point is it helps you complete a lift that you would not likely be able to without the belt or wrap, after all that’s why you’re wearing it in the first place. No you’d say i’m wearing just for support, but that support helps you get thru the lift.
sure the smaller lifters don’t have the bulk to move big pounds, that’s why we have weight classes, the light weight guys are not competing against the SHW who have the body mass and bulk. Your logic would imply that LWs lack of body mass must be made up by wearing the belt. But who are the LWs competing against? other LWs right who also lack the bulk, so all things are even.
oh storm the beach, your answers are priceless. but since we are talking about “bulk” why have we not brought up the bulk as being supportive in the squat? sumabeast i have to believe you get a lot of support from your bulk being you are only 5’8" and 300 pounds, my weight has stayed slightly constant but have not gone above 195lbs yet, even with the couple inches i’ve lost off my waist i’ve noticed a difference in supoort without a belt.
to everyone else, i feel like if you don’t compete you really shouldn’t have a say in a matter in which you don’t participate in. i don’t know anything about hockey but i have some sticks and hit a few pucks, but i don’t go on a hockey forum and tell them what the hell i think about their rules, a little off subject there but i think you get my point. one guy on a powerlifting forum wrote that he squatted something like 675 for a few reps with just a belt but had never done a meet and was not planning on doing a meet but he felt that raw meant no knee wraps…well if you haven’t ever done a meet and aren’t planning on doing one, why should we listen to what the hell you have to say when there are plenty of poeple that actually compete telling you what we want?
MORE BITCHIN!
[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:
Weight classes were invented so smaller people wouldnt have to try as hard.[/quote]
That hurts man!
Keep insulting us density challenged guys and I’ll give you a stiff uppercut to the knee cap.[/quote]
I don’t know what you’re complaining about. Get down under 60 and the effort required is so little I barely have to show up never mind have to put gear and shit on.
whether you call is “giving force to the bar” or “supportive” , point is it helps you complete a lift that you would not likely be able to without the belt or wrap, after all that’s why you’re wearing it in the first place. No you’d say i’m wearing just for support, but that support helps you get thru the lift.
sure the smaller lifters don’t have the bulk to move big pounds, that’s why we have weight classes, the light weight guys are not competing against the SHW who have the body mass and bulk. Your logic would imply that LWs lack of body mass must be made up by wearing the belt. But who are the LWs competing against? other LWs right who also lack the bulk, so all things are even.
[/quote]
More difference in structure than mass with the classes. Thicker waist means better leverage with stabilising muscles, and with the lighter weight classes you get a fair bit of variation depending on the lifters height. All I was saying was 2 simple things:
That the gear I outlined does not make you stronger; indeed, as you yourself said, it could be argued that all it does is increase your chance of getting the lift. (As a side note, the only argument against this is that the increase in intra-abdominal pressure from a belt increases muscle tension beyond what is possible otherwise)
Every other sport permits strapping and sleeves to perform the exact same purpose.
I see no reason for a lifter to reduce their chances of getting the lift and increase their chance of injury over something that doesn’t actually improve their potential on the day.
I understand people may feel differently, and they’re welcome to do so; I just want the arguments in favour to be aired to at least logically challenge some of the arguments against.
I do concede your point that it increases the likelyhood of getting the lift. It’s a valid one and I didn’t make it clear I agreed with it.