Topping the list of the 10 universities with the lowest African-American male student-athlete graduation rates was Iowa State with 30 percent. South Florida, Arizona and Arkansas were close behind at 31 percent.
[quote]H factor wrote:
What do the players who were brought in to play a game and weren’t very good at school to begin with that don’t graduate get? Unemployment? Medical bills perhaps? Lifetime of pain?
[/quote]
An opportunity to make their dream come true and at least 1 free year of higher education.
By all rights many of these people shouldn’t even be let through the doors of a college.
“Unemployed?”, If they weren’t exceptionally good at sports what would they be?
[quote]
It’s easy to focus on the guys who will make millions, but what about the guys who won’t? The guys brought to school for ONE reason…to play sports. You think Alabama gives a fuck about your studies as long as you’re eligible? [/quote]
In my opinion, the guys that won’t make millions in the pros won’t make anything in college either.
[quote]zecarlo wrote:
Topping the list of the 10 universities with the lowest African-American male student-athlete graduation rates was Iowa State with 30 percent. South Florida, Arizona and Arkansas were close behind at 31 percent.
They are focusing on their job.
I mean, they are focusing on that thing that brought them to the school and is the reason they got the “free” education that they are told not to make a priority. the thing that dries up the moment they stop meeting their requirements.
Maybe we should just start saying athlete-student so we put the emphasis on what comes first to many of them. And the thing the university pushes harder than the student part on many of the kids?
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/9873192/notre-dame-comes-winner-graduation-rates[/quote]
Interesting.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
What do the players who were brought in to play a game and weren’t very good at school to begin with that don’t graduate get? Unemployment? Medical bills perhaps? Lifetime of pain?
[/quote]
By all rights many of these people shouldn’t even be let through the doors of a college.
[/quote]
Now you’re starting to hit it on the head. Can’t meet the academic requirements without serious help, but are brought to the school for one reason and one reason only. Because they are insanely talented at a sport and that sport generates millions of dollars for the university. Come on in, let us use you as long as we can. The moment you get in trouble or get injured and lose your “value” to the university forget you.
Not that we cared about your education in the first place.
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
What do the players who were brought in to play a game and weren’t very good at school to begin with that don’t graduate get? Unemployment? Medical bills perhaps? Lifetime of pain?
[/quote]
By all rights many of these people shouldn’t even be let through the doors of a college.
[/quote]
Now you’re starting to hit it on the head. Can’t meet the academic requirements without serious help, but are brought to the school for one reason and one reason only. Because they are insanely talented at a sport and that sport generates millions of dollars for the university. Come on in, let us use you as long as we can. The moment you get in trouble or get injured and lose your “value” to the university forget you.
Not that we cared about your education in the first place. [/quote]
The difference is you see it as these kids being exploited for money, I see it as these kids getting a gift of an opportunity because of the money sports generates.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
What do the players who were brought in to play a game and weren’t very good at school to begin with that don’t graduate get? Unemployment? Medical bills perhaps? Lifetime of pain?
[/quote]
By all rights many of these people shouldn’t even be let through the doors of a college.
[/quote]
Now you’re starting to hit it on the head. Can’t meet the academic requirements without serious help, but are brought to the school for one reason and one reason only. Because they are insanely talented at a sport and that sport generates millions of dollars for the university. Come on in, let us use you as long as we can. The moment you get in trouble or get injured and lose your “value” to the university forget you.
Not that we cared about your education in the first place. [/quote]
The difference is you see it as these kids being exploited for money, I see it as these kids getting a gift of an opportunity because of the money sports generates. [/quote]
That’s how college Presidents see athletics as well. Hell of an opportunity to make a lot of cash. Just can’t let kids see any of that. They already see enough. Coaches, AD’s, TV deals, shoe deals, etc. All of those can go up indefinitely and we need to make sure we keep the students in the same boat as 30 years ago.
It is a great opportunity, but let’s not sit around pretending it isn’t their job or they weren’t brought there to do one thing. This isn’t the band. This isn’t the dance team. You’re here because you can play. If you graduate great. Some schools will help more than others. Your number one job is to win at your sport. You’re a “student athlete” after all. And our TV deals, shoe contracts, and multi-million dollar coaching contracts count on you being good. Not on you graduating. Not on you being successful after this stint. On you being what WE need right now.
It’s a great deal for some kids, a horrific deal for other kids. And a cash cow for the NCAA.
[quote]H factor wrote:
You know what you’re getting into is a poor argument when the discussion is whether or not the status quo should change. [/quote]
Yes, and yet again you’re strawmanning most people’s arguments here. I’ve not seen a SINGLE person say the status quo should not be changed. I certainly did not, and in fact I’ve said the opposite in a number of ways including agreeing with Jack that if anybody deserves the Teamsters its the NCAA. If that’s not a damning indictment of the status quo I don’t know what is.
But you’re arguing against ghosts here. Nobody has argued what you stated above, least of all myself.
[quote]H factor wrote:
They don’t want any “greedy” athlete who may want some health insurance taking away money from them. [/quote]
This is a strawman AGAIN. I already addressed this above–injuries sustained in university activities/sports/games/training/practice are covered up to and including surgeries and physical therapy on the UNIVERSITY’S insurance. ACL repair? check. Physical therapy? Check. University’s dime? Check.
It is already built into the system. The only big caveat is that some may drop your scholarship–which I already stated was fucking bullshit and unacceptable so I am already agreeing with you as far as that goes. Other health insurance for sickness or whatever is usually on the parents or purchased through the university as a student plan. This is the same for all people athlete or non-athlete.
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
What do the players who were brought in to play a game and weren’t very good at school to begin with that don’t graduate get? Unemployment? Medical bills perhaps? Lifetime of pain?
[/quote]
By all rights many of these people shouldn’t even be let through the doors of a college.
[/quote]
Now you’re starting to hit it on the head. Can’t meet the academic requirements without serious help, but are brought to the school for one reason and one reason only. Because they are insanely talented at a sport and that sport generates millions of dollars for the university. Come on in, let us use you as long as we can. The moment you get in trouble or get injured and lose your “value” to the university forget you.
Not that we cared about your education in the first place. [/quote]
The difference is you see it as these kids being exploited for money, I see it as these kids getting a gift of an opportunity because of the money sports generates. [/quote]
That’s how college Presidents see athletics as well. Hell of an opportunity to make a lot of cash. Just can’t let kids see any of that. They already see enough. Coaches, AD’s, TV deals, shoe deals, etc. All of those can go up indefinitely and we need to make sure we keep the students in the same boat as 30 years ago.
It is a great opportunity, but let’s not sit around pretending it isn’t their job or they weren’t brought there to do one thing. This isn’t the band. This isn’t the dance team. You’re here because you can play. If you graduate great. Some schools will help more than others. Your number one job is to win at your sport. You’re a “student athlete” after all. And our TV deals, shoe contracts, and multi-million dollar coaching contracts count on you being good. Not on you graduating. Not on you being successful after this stint. On you being what WE need right now.
It’s a great deal for some kids, a horrific deal for other kids. And a cash cow for the NCAA. [/quote]
The fact remain, ZERO of these players would have an opportunity if colleges/NCAA didn’t make any money. ZERO of these kids would get an education.
USA today doesn’t seem to agree the Universities make millions off sports.
“Nearly every university loses money on sports. Even after private donations and ticket sales, they fill the gap by tapping students paying tuition or state taxpayers.”
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
The fact remain, ZERO of these players would have an opportunity if colleges/NCAA didn’t make any money. ZERO of these kids would get an education.
USA today doesn’t seem to agree the Universities make millions off sports.
“Nearly every university loses money on sports. Even after private donations and ticket sales, they fill the gap by tapping students paying tuition or state taxpayers.”[/quote]
I never said it was bad money is being made. What is bad is this endless myth that it’s not a job and that kids are there for the education and that they get a free one.
This shows a direct lack of knowledge about the process. Did tuition and books cover all of my college expenses? No it did not. And like I said I was far different than a big college in what was asked of me.
If all these colleges are losing so much money apparently then why are TV, coaching, shoe deals, etc. skyrocketing? Maybe because college athletics is an arms race? Because universities place emphasis on these “just a game” type things? Or because all the non profitable athletic programs that exist?
55% increase in coaching salaries over the last six seasons? Gigantic stadiums being built?
I’m looking at an article that says 68 million in profit for Texas college football. 52 millions for Georgia. Does this add up to a bunch of places with no money? If it’s not profitable why does it continue? Shouldn’t any business or university that is losing that kind of money scrap things?
Kinda makes you wonder who’s all getting big off of this stuff huh? Sorta like a bailout the secret is in making sure you don’t know.
I’d say Forbes spits in the face of the USA Today article.
[quote]Aragorn wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
They don’t want any “greedy” athlete who may want some health insurance taking away money from them. [/quote]
This is a strawman AGAIN. I already addressed this above–injuries sustained in university activities/sports/games/training/practice are covered up to and including surgeries and physical therapy on the UNIVERSITY’S insurance. ACL repair? check. Physical therapy? Check. University’s dime? Check.
It is already built into the system. The only big caveat is that some may drop your scholarship–which I already stated was fucking bullshit and unacceptable so I am already agreeing with you as far as that goes. Other health insurance for sickness or whatever is usually on the parents or purchased through the university as a student plan. This is the same for all people athlete or non-athlete.[/quote]
You sure about all that? Not everyone is so lucky apparently. If I’ve learned one thing about college sports from people it is that different programs and universities have different ways of doing things. Saying it’s already there leaves out all the conflicting evidence and people who “thought” they were covered that weren’t.
And that says nothing of the care needed AFTER school by some people.
I assume this is the article:
“Last year Texas had income of $109 million; no other team made more than $90 million. The biggest source of revenue was ticket sales, which contributed $34.5 million last season, an increase of more than $2 million from the previous year. Texas football also collected $30 million from contributions and another $15 million from Big 12 and NCAA distributions.”
-I don’t see TV or shoe deals on the list? I also don’t see merchandise sales?
"As our methodology indicates, there are some rather well-defined ways to create value with college football.
First, and most obviously, is that successful teams generate a positive operating income for a school?s athletic department. Football is ordinarily an athletic department?s biggest revenue driver, and that income is required to support non-revenue sports like golf and swimming. If a team is profitable enough to cover those costs and still put its athletic department in the black, then revenue can be directed back to the parent university to support academic programming.
This is particularly true for the top SEC schools. Florida led the way last year, contributing $7.2 million to academic programming, with $1.5 million of that earmarked for non-athletic scholarships. Alabama wasn?t far behind, providing nearly $6.5 million to the university to help pay for scholarships, faculty support and the school?s Acts of Kindness fund. Other big donors were Ohio State ($5 million) and Georgia ($4 million)."
-Revenue from football helps supports athletic programs that make no money and then academics. What do you think will happen to both if athletes start getting paid?
[quote]H factor wrote:
I’d say Forbes spits in the face of the USA Today article.
http://www.forbes.com/special-report/2012/business-of-college-football.html[/quote]
The forbes article(s) don’t mention expenses at all.
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
You’re going to pretend these star athletes are being exploited because they don’t get paid? They do get paid, on draft day. Wiggins will get plenty for showing off his skills at KU. [/quote]
What do the players who were brought in to play a game and weren’t very good at school to begin with that don’t graduate get? Unemployment? Medical bills perhaps? Lifetime of pain?
[/quote]
You are absolutely breaking several rules of argumentation here. First ALL students must be academically eligible to attend college. If you want to attack that eligibility requirement to say…make it higher and assure only “good” students are eligible, that is certainly a good option. However as far as I am aware the NCAA requires you 1) graduate from high school and 2) earn a minimum of a 2.0 or C average plus a 21.5 composite in the ACT. This is certainly low but not completely out of the ordinary because a number of State Universities allow their in-state students to be admitted on a 2.0 GPA, and a larger number allow you to be admitted on an ACT composite of 21.5-22 which is just about identical to the NCAAs requirement. So your argument based on entrance requirements is going to have to also attack the general admissions requirements for ALL university students as needing to be raised.
Second, if you are offered a free education and you choose to piss it away that is your responsibility AS AN ADULT. You have been arguing all thread long that these kids deserve the right to control their image because they are legally adults and I don’t disagree. But guess what? Being an adult comes with some fucking responsibility and you can’t whine and cry about them getting “unemployment” when they are ADULTS who VOLUNTARILY chose to piss away their opportunity at free education. That is on them. Their fault they chose to do that. If you want to talk parenting or something that’s something else and I might very well agree with you but that is NOT the NCAAs fault.
You can’t argue that it is impossible or “too much” to expect that D1 athletes handle both sports and academics, plenty and I mean plenty of people do that. I knew and still know a ton of college athletes at the school I do research at. Both money making sports and non-money makers. They get degrees. They are responsible and handle both sports and school. The people who don’t don’t get to blame the NCAA for that shit, that’s their fucking fault they didn’t use the opportunity given them.
You are given opportunities in life. You either use them or not, but as an adult you don’t get to whine when your own negligence or laziness or short sightedness costs you.
[quote]H factor wrote:
I never said it was bad money is being made. What is bad is this endless myth that it’s not a job and that kids are there for the education and that they get a free one. [/quote]
It’s not a job, it’s an after school activity.
[quote]
This shows a direct lack of knowledge about the process. Did tuition and books cover all of my college expenses? No it did not. And like I said I was far different than a big college in what was asked of me. [/quote]
Did you have a full scholarship? Were you expected to go pro in a year or finish school?
[quote]
If all these colleges are losing so much money apparently then why are TV, coaching, shoe deals, etc. skyrocketing? Maybe because college athletics is an arms race? [/quote]
Yes, to increase enrollment of NON-athletes. Their primary function.
[quote]
Because universities place emphasis on these “just a game” type things? Or because all the non profitable athletic programs that exist? [/quote]
Big sports help pay for little sports and academics.
[quote]
55% increase in coaching salaries over the last six seasons? Gigantic stadiums being built? [/quote]
That’s what the fans wants. The market dictates these things, isn’t that what you want?
[quote]
I’m looking at an article that says 68 million in profit for Texas college football. 52 millions for Georgia. Does this add up to a bunch of places with no money? [/quote]
Well I mean that is only 2 schools.
[quote]
If it’s not profitable why does it continue? Shouldn’t any business or university that is losing that kind of money scrap things? [/quote]
No, because the point of college sports isn’t to make money. That might be what it has become, but I don’t think that was ever the intent.
[quote]
Kinda makes you wonder who’s all getting big off of this stuff huh? Sorta like a bailout the secret is in making sure you don’t know. [/quote]
Not really, for me personally anyway.
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
What do the players who were brought in to play a game and weren’t very good at school to begin with that don’t graduate get? Unemployment? Medical bills perhaps? Lifetime of pain?
[/quote]
By all rights many of these people shouldn’t even be let through the doors of a college.
[/quote]
Now you’re starting to hit it on the head. Can’t meet the academic requirements without serious help, but are brought to the school for one reason and one reason only. Because they are insanely talented at a sport and that sport generates millions of dollars for the university. Come on in, let us use you as long as we can. The moment you get in trouble or get injured and lose your “value” to the university forget you.
Not that we cared about your education in the first place. [/quote]
- You shouldn’t be a dumb shit and get into criminal trouble in the first place 2) for the vast vast vast majority of D1 “money maker” scholarship athletes you do not get dumped when you’re injured. They still want you to keep playing if you’re able so they’ll rehab you. It does occasionally happen and that is bullshit and needs changed like years ago, but this tends to happen extremely rarely because if you’re able to play they want you on the field, even if you take a year off.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
I’d say Forbes spits in the face of the USA Today article.
http://www.forbes.com/special-report/2012/business-of-college-football.html[/quote]
The forbes article(s) don’t mention expenses at all. [/quote]
Yes it does. It shows revenue and profits. Texas made 78 million according to the article. It has others for the top 20.
[quote]H factor wrote:
You sure about all that? Not everyone is so lucky apparently. If I’ve learned one thing about college sports from people it is that different programs and universities have different ways of doing things. Saying it’s already there leaves out all the conflicting evidence and people who “thought” they were covered that weren’t.
And that says nothing of the care needed AFTER school by some people.
[/quote]
Pretty positive. Hell I know cheerleaders that tore ACLs that were covered by the University. Now its not as iron clad as it needs to be but I already mentioned that and I know you read that.
I did not mention after school in my post because I’ve already mentioned it in prior posts as needing to be addressed and fixed. I’m sure you read those as well.