Lol, talk about 1st world problems…
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Let me type this for the third time. The fact that they cannot get a job is asinine.
A scholarship is a form of compensation. They make “money”.
College sports are a prison now? Or slavery? That’s ridiculous. [/quote]
To make that money they sacrifice a lot. Time, effort, they put in a lot of “work” for that.
Yes this is a great deal for some. It’s a horrible deal for others.
Either way WHY can’t they make money off themselves like everyone else who is over 18 can?
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Lol, talk about 1st world problems…[/quote]
It’s just unfair.
Let me say this one more time:
A kid can go to Alabama and get a full ride band scholarship. They can make all sorts of money off their musical talents AND STILL keep that scholarship and eligibility.
A football player can go to Alabama and get a full ride scholarship. They CANNOT make money off football in terms of autographs, in terms of jersey sales, commercials, etc.
No, it isn’t world hunger, but that doesn’t change it.
In a free market Manziel makes millions of dollars. He is entering one very shortly and watch how valuable he is. For the last two years he had tons of value, but the main person who made money off of him was Texas A&M. He COULDN’T make money off his talents because of regulations.
You say but he got something. You’re right. Far less than market value. Get ready to see what market value brings him.
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Let me type this for the third time. The fact that they cannot get a job is asinine.
A scholarship is a form of compensation. They make “money”.
College sports are a prison now? Or slavery? That’s ridiculous. [/quote]
To make that money they sacrifice a lot. Time, effort, they put in a lot of “work” for that.
Yes this is a great deal for some. It’s a horrible deal for others.
Either way WHY can’t they make money off themselves like everyone else who is over 18 can? [/quote]
Again, I didn’t say they shouldn’t be allowed to make money. As a matter of fact several times I said the opposite. I said they should not be paid to play. They get compensated to play, it’s called room and board.
They sacrifice a lot… They practice and prepare for a game. Most of us on T-Nation do that too, we just call them leisure activities.
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Lol, talk about 1st world problems…[/quote]
It’s just unfair.
[/quote]
Yes life can be.
I figure as this point I don’t need to re-type my position on student athletes making money, do I?
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Let me type this for the third time. The fact that they cannot get a job is asinine.
A scholarship is a form of compensation. They make “money”.
College sports are a prison now? Or slavery? That’s ridiculous. [/quote]
To make that money they sacrifice a lot. Time, effort, they put in a lot of “work” for that.
Yes this is a great deal for some. It’s a horrible deal for others.
Either way WHY can’t they make money off themselves like everyone else who is over 18 can? [/quote]
Again, I didn’t say they shouldn’t be allowed to make money. As a matter of fact several times I said the opposite. I said they should not be paid to play. They get compensated to play, it’s called room and board.
They sacrifice a lot… They practice and prepare for a game. Most of us on T-Nation do that too, we just call them leisure activities. [/quote]
Why highlight the game part? It isn’t a game. It’s an occupation for some.
Is the NFL just a football game? No, it’s a labor market.
That “game” generates millions of dollars for people. Coaches, bars, athletic trainers, concession stands. All the kids want is to have the right to make a little piece of the pie.
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Let me type this for the third time. The fact that they cannot get a job is asinine.
A scholarship is a form of compensation. They make “money”.
College sports are a prison now? Or slavery? That’s ridiculous. [/quote]
To make that money they sacrifice a lot. Time, effort, they put in a lot of “work” for that.
Yes this is a great deal for some. It’s a horrible deal for others.
Either way WHY can’t they make money off themselves like everyone else who is over 18 can? [/quote]
Again, I didn’t say they shouldn’t be allowed to make money. As a matter of fact several times I said the opposite. I said they should not be paid to play. They get compensated to play, it’s called room and board.
They sacrifice a lot… They practice and prepare for a game. Most of us on T-Nation do that too, we just call them leisure activities. [/quote]
Why highlight the game part? It isn’t a game. It’s an occupation for some.
Is the NFL just a football game? No, it’s a labor market. [/quote]
Because it’s just a game for everyone except the pros and that includes students that play football for their college.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Let me type this for the third time. The fact that they cannot get a job is asinine.
A scholarship is a form of compensation. They make “money”.
College sports are a prison now? Or slavery? That’s ridiculous. [/quote]
To make that money they sacrifice a lot. Time, effort, they put in a lot of “work” for that.
Yes this is a great deal for some. It’s a horrible deal for others.
Either way WHY can’t they make money off themselves like everyone else who is over 18 can? [/quote]
Again, I didn’t say they shouldn’t be allowed to make money. As a matter of fact several times I said the opposite. I said they should not be paid to play. They get compensated to play, it’s called room and board.
They sacrifice a lot… They practice and prepare for a game. Most of us on T-Nation do that too, we just call them leisure activities. [/quote]
Why highlight the game part? It isn’t a game. It’s an occupation for some.
Is the NFL just a football game? No, it’s a labor market. [/quote]
Because it’s just a game for everyone except the pros and that includes students that play football for their college. [/quote]
I guess. That “game” generates MILLIONS of dollars for colleges. And in return the players get controlled by the NCAA. And we’re sitting around acting like it’s no big thing? I mean their is a reason why these kids won the other day.
A reason the Ed Obannon lawsuit was successful. Courts are starting to listen to arguments that are grounded in logic, reason, and morality for these “game” players.
[quote]H factor wrote:
And in return the players get controlled by the NCAA. [/quote]
They are not slaves. They do not have to play college sports. They are free to do what they want.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
And in return the players get controlled by the NCAA. [/quote]
They are not slaves. They do not have to play college sports. They are free to do what they want.
[/quote]
I didn’t say they were slaves.
Yes, Wiggins was free to work at a grocery store instead of go to KU. You’re correct. So why did KU go after him so hard knowing he wouldn’t graduate?
Ask yourself why he was worth their investment in him? Why all the attention and people drooling over “getting him?” KU KNEW he wasn’t going to graduate. They knew why he was there.
They wanted him more than he wanted them. And in return he couldn’t make any money for one year.
Now he can. But your answer to this debate is “you don’t have to do it?”
I think you gotta believe there is more to it than that or you don’t follow college sports and the money they make that closely. One of the two.
At the very least the cumbersome regulations need to be lifted. Let kids make money and let’s quit treating them like commodities with no rights to their own name.
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
And in return the players get controlled by the NCAA. [/quote]
They are not slaves. They do not have to play college sports. They are free to do what they want.
[/quote]
I didn’t say they were slaves.
Yes, Wiggins was free to work at a grocery store instead of go to KU. You’re correct. So why did KU go after him so hard knowing he wouldn’t graduate?
Ask yourself why he was worth their investment in him? Why all the attention and people drooling over “getting him?” KU KNEW he wasn’t going to graduate. They knew why he was there.
They wanted him more than he wanted them. And in return he couldn’t make any money for one year.
Now he can. But your answer to this debate is “you don’t have to do it?”
I think you gotta believe there is more to it than that or you don’t follow college sports and the money they make that closely. One of the two. [/quote]
Coaches go after players because that is their job. That’s what they’re paid to do. If Wiggins didn’t want to play college ball he didn’t have to.
No H, my answer to this debate is:
1.) The emphasis needs to be put back on the classroom and not on sports. It’s COLLEGE not a business.
2.) They are already paid with room and board. Something 99.99% of students do not get for free.
3.) They should be allowed to work.
4.) I don’t care if they make money on the side.
Or, turn the athletic programs into a for profit business and make the athletes employees of the college. Pay them the millions they are worth and don’t make them go to class.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
And in return the players get controlled by the NCAA. [/quote]
They are not slaves. They do not have to play college sports. They are free to do what they want.
[/quote]
I didn’t say they were slaves.
Yes, Wiggins was free to work at a grocery store instead of go to KU. You’re correct. So why did KU go after him so hard knowing he wouldn’t graduate?
Ask yourself why he was worth their investment in him? Why all the attention and people drooling over “getting him?” KU KNEW he wasn’t going to graduate. They knew why he was there.
They wanted him more than he wanted them. And in return he couldn’t make any money for one year.
Now he can. But your answer to this debate is “you don’t have to do it?”
I think you gotta believe there is more to it than that or you don’t follow college sports and the money they make that closely. One of the two. [/quote]
Coaches go after players because that is their job. That’s what they’re paid to do. If Wiggins didn’t want to play college ball he didn’t have to.
No H, my answer to this debate is:
1.) The emphasis needs to be put back on the classroom and not on sports. It’s COLLEGE not a business.
2.) They are already paid with room and board. Something 99.99% of students do not get for free.
3.) They should be allowed to work.
4.) I don’t care if they make money on the side.
Or, turn the athletic programs into a for profit business and make the athletes employees of the college. Pay them the millions they are worth and don’t make them go to class.
[/quote]
The emphasis isn’t going to get put on the classroom my friend. Not as long as we have minimum age requirements that the leagues have. And the NCAA don’t get it wrong supports those age requirements. That gets elite players to go to college for a little while and make the universities piles of cash.
College sports IS big business. We may not want it to be, but it is. Follow the money. Look at how college contracts, tv contracts, shoe deals, jersey deals have gone up. Everyone is getting huge pieces of the pie. AD’s, coaches, endorsement deals, etc. And we STILL are saying “hey you know room and board isn’t a bad deal.”
Actually, it’s starting to look like a pretty damn bad deal for some people with insane value who are being told they can’t do anything with that value.
[quote]H factor wrote:
The emphasis isn’t going to get put on the classroom my friend. Not as long as we have minimum age requirements that the leagues have. And the NCAA don’t get it wrong supports those age requirements. That gets elite players to go to college for a little while and make the universities piles of cash.
[/quote]
Well that to me is the real problem.
[quote]
College sports IS big business. We may not want it to be, but it is. Follow the money. Look at how college contracts, tv contracts, shoe deals, jersey deals have gone up. Everyone is getting huge pieces of the pie. AD’s, coaches, endorsement deals, etc. And we STILL are saying “hey you know room and board isn’t a bad deal.”
Actually, it’s starting to look like a pretty damn bad deal for some people with insane value who are being told they can’t do anything with that value. [/quote]
I would modify the above by saying it’s a bad deal for very very few. I think if you start paying athletes the very very few starting making a shit ton of money and the vast majority get completely screwed. Say goodbye to scholarships, room & board, etc…
I still say if there is this huge market for 18-22 year old athletes, why hasn’t another league been formed?
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
I still say if there is this huge market for 18-22 year old athletes, why hasn’t another league been formed? [/quote]
Where is the incentive? We already have a place to see 18-22 year old athletes play. It’s called college athletics.
Why would the NFL create a league when the NCAA can do the dirty work of determining who is best for them?
The NCAA is happy to do it because they make tons of money. The NFL is happy to let them do it because it saves them the money of paying people.
Everyone wins.
Well…maybe not everyone 
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
I still say if there is this huge market for 18-22 year old athletes, why hasn’t another league been formed? [/quote]
Where is the incentive? We already have a place to see 18-22 year old athletes play. It’s called college athletics.
Why would the NFL create a league when the NCAA can do the dirty work of determining who is best for them?
The NCAA is happy to do it because they make tons of money. The NFL is happy to let them do it because it saves them the money of paying people.
Everyone wins.
Well…maybe not everyone [/quote]
Money is the incentive just like for the NCAA. It doesn’t have to be the NFL it could be a group of private investors.
I’m surprised someone like Mark Cuban hasn’t done it to be honest.
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]Aragorn wrote:
[quote]jjackkrash wrote:
Fuck the NCAA.
I was a student-althlete in college in a non-revenue-genrating sport (swimming and diving), and the NCAA made me choose between competing in college and earning a little extra spending money in the off season performing–not competing, performing–in a professional high-diving show. Who the fuck is the NCAA to tell me what I can and can’t do to earn money legally on my own time?
College football makes $Billions–with a B–$Billions off the backs of student athletes and then brands them cheaters and low-lifes if they put anything in their own pocket or even dare to suggest there is something unfair about this. What a racket. I hope the players break them.
Fuck the NCAA.[/quote]
I’m with you on this 120% too, as well as the NCAA being shitty as hell, but putting the definitional structure of “employer/employee relationship” onto a student-athlete is not the way to go. Unintended consequences galore, and I’m not talking about money the university is making…I’m talking the effect on university time as an education, not that it isn’t already partly a sham through special treatment and all.
You should be able to make money outside your time, but you should not be considered an employee if you’re on scholarship. You are still supposed to be a student getting an education[/quote]
This is what is a joke though. You’re NOT a student getting and education. It’s all a sham.
Andrew Wiggins needed either 9 or 12 hours to be eligible to play basketball at KU. IF he could have gone pro right out of the gate he would have. He had to jump through the hoop though.
And while he was jumping through that hoop KU made a shit ton of money. Sweet for them. Luckily for him he will also make a shit ton of money now that he can be drafted.
He was there for an education about as much as I’m posting right here now for money. [/quote]
Sure, but the amount of people who could jump straight to pro from high school is negligible compared to the amount of people who need the time to mature physically and “sports smarts” wise. I mean, look at Darren Sproles, LT, Manning brothers, etc. Lots and lots of big names couldn’t make the jump right out of high school, or even after the first year. Yes I think it’s dumb they make people jump through that hoop that could otherwise go, but don’t reason from the exceptions to the general case of the student athlete. For every Michael Beasley or Andrew Wiggins or Lebron James there are a ton of Drew Brees, Mannings, Jared Allens, and Jordy Nelsons who all need the time to be coached, taught, and mature.
For those majority of people that need the years in college you get a free education. If you’re not smart enough to see the value in that and you choose to screw around and then get hurt later and can’t make the pros, that’s your fault for not taking advantage of a large sum total of benefits that you could have…for a solid money making back-up plan (i.e. degree).
And you’re not taking into account the non-money maker sports anyways–free room and board and free education when you play a sport that does not likely get you into millions after college, you still get a big break or a free education. That is a huge benefit.
[quote]jjackkrash wrote:
[quote]Aragorn wrote:
[quote]jjackkrash wrote:
Fuck the NCAA.
I was a student-althlete in college in a non-revenue-genrating sport (swimming and diving), and the NCAA made me choose between competing in college and earning a little extra spending money in the off season performing–not competing, performing–in a professional high-diving show. Who the fuck is the NCAA to tell me what I can and can’t do to earn money legally on my own time?
College football makes $Billions–with a B–$Billions off the backs of student athletes and then brands them cheaters and low-lifes if they put anything in their own pocket or even dare to suggest there is something unfair about this. What a racket. I hope the players break them.
Fuck the NCAA.[/quote]
I’m with you on this 120% too, as well as the NCAA being shitty as hell, but putting the definitional structure of “employer/employee relationship” onto a student-athlete is not the way to go. Unintended consequences galore, and I’m not talking about money the university is making…I’m talking the effect on university time as an education, not that it isn’t already partly a sham through special treatment and all.
You should be able to make money outside your time, but you should not be considered an employee if you’re on scholarship. You are still supposed to be a student getting an education[/quote]
Your points are absolutely valid, especially about unintended consequences. The NCAA wouldn’t be staring in the face of a union if they didn’t operate like a pack of gangsters, however. I am not a big fan of unions, but if I was going to wish the Teamsters on somebody, its the NCAA. I honestly believe that organization would rather burn down all college athletics rather than cede an ounce of power to the players, which is what they are pushing the players into doing.
[/quote]
Well I’m with you on that one buddy!
[quote]Aragorn wrote:
Sure, but the amount of people who could jump straight to pro from high school is negligible compared to the amount of people who need the time to mature physically and “sports smarts” wise. I mean, look at Darren Sproles, LT, Manning brothers, etc. Lots and lots of big names couldn’t make the jump right out of high school, or even after the first year. Yes I think it’s dumb they make people jump through that hoop that could otherwise go, but don’t reason from the exceptions to the general case of the student athlete. For every Michael Beasley or Andrew Wiggins or Lebron James there are a ton of Drew Brees, Mannings, Jared Allens, and Jordy Nelsons who all need the time to be coached, taught, and mature.
For those majority of people that need the years in college you get a free education. If you’re not smart enough to see the value in that and you choose to screw around and then get hurt later and can’t make the pros, that’s your fault for not taking advantage of a large sum total of benefits that you could have…for a solid money making back-up plan (i.e. degree).
And you’re not taking into account the non-money maker sports anyways–free room and board and free education when you play a sport that does not likely get you into millions after college, you still get a big break or a free education. That is a huge benefit.[/quote]
Well I have a few issues with who you picked. Peyton Manning stayed in school because he wanted to, not because he needed to. He would have been a top 10 pick after his junior year easily, probably higher.
What we have is a ton of people who are only in college because of athletics. Not because of intelligence. And you are telling these people (many of whom lack a proper upbringing in education or personal finance) that they need to realize the value of a diploma. A “free” (odd choice of words considering all the time put in by college athletes) education is worth nothing if you don’t graduate. It’s worth nothing without a job after graduation.
So we put all this onus on the student athlete to do all these amazing athletic things for a university AND they need to make sure they graduate. If they do not graduate for a variety of reasons the time is wasted for them. It’s not wasted for the universities that make the money off the athletes though. They still get the TV deals, shoe deals, jersey deals, big money from the kids. The kids are just hung out to dry.
At the same time we don’t LET those kids get the value they are worth because we give them all these restrictions (you can’t work, you can’t sign autographs, can’t be in commercials, can’t make money off your name).
You’re bringing in a BUNCH of people who probably don’t belong in college for one reason…because they can play a “game.” You’re making an absolute shit ton of money off that “game.” And if someone doesn’t get a degree then fuck them we gave them the opportunity. They pissed it away. Nice going kid, you fucked it up. Now try signing those autographs when you don’t have any market value because of injury, getting kicked off the team for weed, etc.
Here let me cash that check we made off all those people who bought your jersey while you were here. Let’s stick that in our back pockets.
Thanks for the time buster. You had your “chance.” Now let’s find some other people who can play that game so we can make some more money.
Nothing in this sounds like it needs changing?!
[quote]Aragorn wrote:
Sure, but the amount of people who could jump straight to pro from high school is negligible compared to the amount of people who need the time to mature physically and “sports smarts” wise. I mean, look at Darren Sproles, LT, Manning brothers, etc. Lots and lots of big names couldn’t make the jump right out of high school, or even after the first year. Yes I think it’s dumb they make people jump through that hoop that could otherwise go, but don’t reason from the exceptions to the general case of the student athlete. For every Michael Beasley or Andrew Wiggins or Lebron James there are a ton of Drew Brees, Mannings, Jared Allens, and Jordy Nelsons who all need the time to be coached, taught, and mature.
For those majority of people that need the years in college you get a free education. If you’re not smart enough to see the value in that and you choose to screw around and then get hurt later and can’t make the pros, that’s your fault for not taking advantage of a large sum total of benefits that you could have…for a solid money making back-up plan (i.e. degree).
And you’re not taking into account the non-money maker sports anyways–free room and board and free education when you play a sport that does not likely get you into millions after college, you still get a big break or a free education. That is a huge benefit.[/quote]
And why are colleges somehow obligated to provide this “job training?” They don’t need college for that training but rather pro sports need college to provide that training.
Look up the graduation rates for African-American “student” athletes, it’s pathetic and probably due to them not being college material in the first place which makes getting a free education a moot point.