[quote]rundymc wrote:
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
[quote]sardines12 wrote:
Well I guess the greatest no gi bjj grappler ever is a “retard.”
[/quote]
Yes. And take that shit out of quotes, because it’s damn true.[/quote]
Fucking LOL.
Seriously though, who is the “greatest no gi grappler.” Marcelo? Roger, Jacare, Galvao? I know second-hand that both Galvao and Jacare lift religiously.[/quote]
Marcelo newb, fucking Galvao?
what is knowing second hand
exactly how many decimal points are there in that equation.
[quote]sardines12 wrote:
[quote]rundymc wrote:
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
[quote]sardines12 wrote:
Well I guess the greatest no gi bjj grappler ever is a “retard.”
[/quote]
Yes. And take that shit out of quotes, because it’s damn true.[/quote]
Fucking LOL.
Seriously though, who is the “greatest no gi grappler.” Marcelo? Roger, Jacare, Galvao? I know second-hand that both Galvao and Jacare lift religiously.[/quote]
Marcelo newb, fucking Galvao? [/quote]
My first thought was Roger. Come on, Galvao’s one hell of a grappler.
^ Second-hand, as in Andre trained with my instructor and mentioned his weight training. Soooo. one decimal place? 
Best No-gi grapler ive ever seen/trained with. (didnt get the chance to actually roll with). Was Gabriel Gonzaga @ Team Link in Ludlow MA. That dude is a beast, lifts weights, eats a shit ton, black belt. His size doesnt seem to hold him back any. Actually when he is chest to chest on dudes, they arent going anywhere. He did recently get released from the UFC. Which is another subject. But his jitz is legit. Against small dudes, big dudes, fat dudes, ripped dudes whatever. Im positive he uses his size and strength to his advantage.
[quote]Beast Status wrote:
Best No-gi grapler ive ever seen/trained with. (didnt get the chance to actually roll with). Was Gabriel Gonzaga @ Team Link in Ludlow MA. That dude is a beast, lifts weights, eats a shit ton, black belt. His size doesnt seem to hold him back any. Actually when he is chest to chest on dudes, they arent going anywhere. He did recently get released from the UFC. Which is another subject. But his jitz is legit. Against small dudes, big dudes, fat dudes, ripped dudes whatever. Im positive he uses his size and strength to his advantage.[/quote]
His jitz is legit. If he’d used it more, he’s probably still be in the UFC.
[quote]Spartiates wrote:
[quote]Beast Status wrote:
Best No-gi grapler ive ever seen/trained with. (didnt get the chance to actually roll with). Was Gabriel Gonzaga @ Team Link in Ludlow MA. That dude is a beast, lifts weights, eats a shit ton, black belt. His size doesnt seem to hold him back any. Actually when he is chest to chest on dudes, they arent going anywhere. He did recently get released from the UFC. Which is another subject. But his jitz is legit. Against small dudes, big dudes, fat dudes, ripped dudes whatever. Im positive he uses his size and strength to his advantage.[/quote]
His jitz is legit. If he’d used it more, he’s probably still be in the UFC.[/quote]
Agreed. He did KTFO Crocop with that headkick. But banging with some of these guys like Cigano who have superior standup isnt a good strategy. I think alot of these jits/wrestler guys would fair much better and have a more succesfull career if they just stuck to their roots.
Jiu-jitsu is totally based on technique and should be treated as such. At the low levels strength matters a lot more- hence guys here saying strength is a big deal. At the upper levels I’d say it makes almost no difference. That being said, I think that being better conditioned, but energy system wise and strength wise is always a good idea. You never know when it will come in handy to be stronger, no matter what your level.
The key to all this stuff is that your strength and conditioning should never get in the way of your technical training on the mat. It is secondary and should be treated that way. Your mma training sessions should be planned first, and your S&C planned around that.
[quote]1000rippedbuff wrote:
Jiu-jitsu is totally based on technique and should be treated as such. At the low levels strength matters a lot more- hence guys here saying strength is a big deal. At the upper levels I’d say it makes almost no difference. That being said, I think that being better conditioned, but energy system wise and strength wise is always a good idea. You never know when it will come in handy to be stronger, no matter what your level.
The key to all this stuff is that your strength and conditioning should never get in the way of your technical training on the mat. It is secondary and should be treated that way. Your mma training sessions should be planned first, and your S&C planned around that.[/quote]
Why would strength and conditioning ever “get in the way”…?
If you’re training to compete, you need to do both. If you train causally, then you should be doing strength-training anyway for basic health reasons.
Are you thinking you need to show up for training at 100%?
I’m never at 100% for training, or at least very rarely. That’s why I don’t see how conditioning work can interfere with technique training, because you don’t have to be at 100% to do technique work. Yesterday I did big lifts in the morning (lower body) before work, and rolled for two hours in the evening after work. Was I anywhere close to 100%? No. Did I get tapped by people I can beat when I’m fresher? Yes. Does it matter? I say no. If forces me to work on technique instead of using strength and speed while TRAINING (key word).
I can only see doing regular weight training/other conditioning work as even “interfering” if you’re either 1) doing it instead of technique work or 2) are so out of shape that you simply can’t function at a basic level to work on technique after having done weight training earlier that day or the day before.
IF 1000rippedbuff and those who think like him are sure that strength plays almost no role in JJ, then there should be no issue with showing up for training pre-fatigued.
[quote]1000rippedbuff wrote:
Jiu-jitsu is totally based on technique and should be treated as such. At the low levels strength matters a lot more- hence guys here saying strength is a big deal. At the upper levels I’d say it makes almost no difference.
[/quote]
That’s funny, cause I know at least one “upper level” BJJ grappler that would say you’re full of shit.
[quote]admbaum wrote:
5/3/1
search this site for it
it works[/quote]
this, focus more on strength and not the accessory stuff
[quote]Spartiates wrote:
[quote]1000rippedbuff wrote:
Jiu-jitsu is totally based on technique and should be treated as such. At the low levels strength matters a lot more- hence guys here saying strength is a big deal. At the upper levels I’d say it makes almost no difference. That being said, I think that being better conditioned, but energy system wise and strength wise is always a good idea. You never know when it will come in handy to be stronger, no matter what your level.
The key to all this stuff is that your strength and conditioning should never get in the way of your technical training on the mat. It is secondary and should be treated that way. Your mma training sessions should be planned first, and your S&C planned around that.[/quote]
Why would strength and conditioning ever “get in the way”…?
If you’re training to compete, you need to do both. If you train causally, then you should be doing strength-training anyway for basic health reasons.
Are you thinking you need to show up for training at 100%?
I’m never at 100% for training, or at least very rarely. That’s why I don’t see how conditioning work can interfere with technique training, because you don’t have to be at 100% to do technique work. Yesterday I did big lifts in the morning (lower body) before work, and rolled for two hours in the evening after work. Was I anywhere close to 100%? No. Did I get tapped by people I can beat when I’m fresher? Yes. Does it matter? I say no. If forces me to work on technique instead of using strength and speed while TRAINING (key word).
I can only see doing regular weight training/other conditioning work as even “interfering” if you’re either 1) doing it instead of technique work or 2) are so out of shape that you simply can’t function at a basic level to work on technique after having done weight training earlier that day or the day before.
IF 1000rippedbuff and those who think like him are sure that strength plays almost no role in JJ, then there should be no issue with showing up for training pre-fatigued.[/quote]
i think (and i could be wrong) the point he was making, and i tried to earlier, is that heavy strength training should not be done at the expense of technique, or even conditioning. i certainly think that’s nice to be stronger and more athletic than the average person, but i know i tend to muscle through technique stuff. some (and not all) of the most technical grapplers and better instructors i’ve seen are not natural athletes…it’s almost as if they had to develop such perfect technique. i know i wasn’t saying “do not lift,” i was saying that all training needs to be prioritized.
i’m not sure why this has become such a big debate. it’s not like anyone thinks that a basketball player will be more successful if they neglect skill training in favor of more S&C training…
[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:
i think (and i could be wrong) the point he was making, and i tried to earlier, is that heavy strength training should not be done at the expense of technique, or even conditioning. i certainly think that’s nice to be stronger and more athletic than the average person, but i know i tend to muscle through technique stuff. some (and not all) of the most technical grapplers and better instructors i’ve seen are not natural athletes…it’s almost as if they had to develop such perfect technique. i know i wasn’t saying “do not lift,” i was saying that all training needs to be prioritized.
i’m not sure why this has become such a big debate. it’s not like anyone thinks that a basketball player will be more successful if they neglect skill training in favor of more S&C training… [/quote]
It’s a debate because martial arts has been behind the curve. 40 years ago, everyone in every sport, “trained” by training for their sport.
Then "they’ figured out figured out that strength and conditioning ought to be a separate endeavor form skill/technique building. Now that’s common practice in most sports, at the top levels: everyone does big lifts with big weights, everyone sprints (or some other high-intensity activity), exe. Doesn’t matter what sport. Speed, strength, and endurance are speed, strength and endurance, and they are good in every sport, the most effective way to build them doesn’t change based on your sport.
Because of the “mysticism” and ego in combat sports, I think they’ve been behind the curve, especially at the lower levels (but even up top, how many beer-guts have there been in the LHW and HW divisions of the UFC?). More than any other group of sports these days (except maybe HS football, which tends to attract some ego-driven idiot coaches) combat sports have tried to maintain the mentality of “train how you fight”. While that’s true of technique training (you don’t want to condition yourself into bad habits because you’re sparring lightly and the like), that doesn’t translate for the big picture.
So when someone comes in here saying they just started combat sport x asks “How should I lift?” the correct answer is not “You’re a newb, focus on technique.”
ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh…
i guess i’ll follow this up one more time. the biggest issue with a new guy in BJJ, MMA or kickboxing that i’ve seen, is conditioning. either a) they don’t have good cardio (average joes) or b) they’re trying to muscle through everything (wreslters that came in to train with us). lifting heavy isn’t gonna fix that… additionally, the faster you can develop the gas tank to make it through the training, the more you will learn.
getting stronger is not hard to do down the road, but fixing bad habits from technique is about impossible, unless you have a dedicated coach. if you want to be good and continue to progress, you need to develop technique.
Ross Enamait says it better than i can i his book “Never Gymless”: “you must develop the ability (technique) to apply these attributes (power, speed and conditioning) throughout the match”
i don’t think anyone in this thread said “don’t develop strength”…
[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:
ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh…
i guess i’ll follow this up one more time. the biggest issue with a new guy in BJJ, MMA or kickboxing that i’ve seen, is conditioning. either a) they don’t have good cardio (average joes) or b) they’re trying to muscle through everything (wreslters that came in to train with us). lifting heavy isn’t gonna fix that… additionally, the faster you can develop the gas tank to make it through the training, the more you will learn.
getting stronger is not hard to do down the road, but fixing bad habits from technique is about impossible, unless you have a dedicated coach. if you want to be good and continue to progress, you need to develop technique.
Ross Enamait says it better than i can i his book “Never Gymless”: “you must develop the ability (technique) to apply these attributes (power, speed and conditioning) throughout the match”
i don’t think anyone in this thread said “don’t develop strength”…[/quote]
You are of course correct.
But the title of thread is “New to MMA: How should I lift.”
The thread should be all about lifting, not people telling the OP not to worry about it yet, or to focus on technique, exe.
Hard work beats natural talent everytime. U have those that are going to come in naturally gifted and have the upper hand, regardless of training.
But being an MMA thread and not jiu-jitsu. Strength plays a HUGE factor. Sprawling, clinching, striking, sweeping, rolling etc. Put two guys against each other with the same amount of skill set. Standing and on the ground. The person with more physical strength is going to win the fight 9 out of 10 times. It just puts him at an advantage in all these aspects. Plus being stronger allows u to control the fight better. We all kno fighting is like chess and controling how the fight goes puts ur opponent in the right position for you to settup your attack.
Of course technique beats strength. But why not be talented and strong? The combination of the 2 makes for a very succesfull fighter. Strike harder, take down harder, sprawl harder, clinch stronger…etc. Being a stroner fighter automaticly puts u at an advangtage facing an opponent with the same skill set as yourself.
[quote]Beast Status wrote:
Hard work beats natural talent everytime. U have those that are going to come in naturally gifted and have the upper hand, regardless of training.
But being an MMA thread and not jiu-jitsu. Strength plays a HUGE factor. Sprawling, clinching, striking, sweeping, rolling etc. Put two guys against each other with the same amount of skill set. Standing and on the ground. The person with more physical strength is going to win the fight 9 out of 10 times. It just puts him at an advantage in all these aspects. Plus being stronger allows u to control the fight better. We all kno fighting is like chess and controling how the fight goes puts ur opponent in the right position for you to settup your attack.
Of course technique beats strength. But why not be talented and strong? The combination of the 2 makes for a very succesfull fighter. Strike harder, take down harder, sprawl harder, clinch stronger…etc. Being a stroner fighter automaticly puts u at an advangtage facing an opponent with the same skill set as yourself.[/quote]
yeah, but that’s the same with ALL physical attributes…speed can have the same effect, as can superior cardio (shit, look at Brock v Cain). the point i was making is that these things are relatively easy to develop, but technique takes time, and technical superiority can negate a physcial advantage (well, most of the time). that’s why self defense and martial arts where developed.
my opinion, and apparently i’m in a small minority here, is that technical training should almost always be the priority for a beginner, especially one that plans to compete. if you’re training in MMA, realistically you will have 4-5 dedicated skill days , and only 2-3 that you can weight train on. what i suggested earlier, was to utilize something simple on “off” days like complexes/HIIT to maintain strength, increase cardio and prevent injury.
[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:
[quote]Beast Status wrote:
Hard work beats natural talent everytime. U have those that are going to come in naturally gifted and have the upper hand, regardless of training.
But being an MMA thread and not jiu-jitsu. Strength plays a HUGE factor. Sprawling, clinching, striking, sweeping, rolling etc. Put two guys against each other with the same amount of skill set. Standing and on the ground. The person with more physical strength is going to win the fight 9 out of 10 times. It just puts him at an advantage in all these aspects. Plus being stronger allows u to control the fight better. We all kno fighting is like chess and controling how the fight goes puts ur opponent in the right position for you to settup your attack.
Of course technique beats strength. But why not be talented and strong? The combination of the 2 makes for a very succesfull fighter. Strike harder, take down harder, sprawl harder, clinch stronger…etc. Being a stroner fighter automaticly puts u at an advangtage facing an opponent with the same skill set as yourself.[/quote]
yeah, but that’s the same with ALL physical attributes…speed can have the same effect, as can superior cardio (shit, look at Brock v Cain). the point i was making is that these things are relatively easy to develop, but technique takes time, and technical superiority can negate a physcial advantage (well, most of the time). that’s why self defense and martial arts where developed.
my opinion, and apparently i’m in a small minority here, is that technical training should almost always be the priority for a beginner, especially one that plans to compete. if you’re training in MMA, realistically you will have 4-5 dedicated skill days , and only 2-3 that you can weight train on. what i suggested earlier, was to utilize something simple on “off” days like complexes/HIIT to maintain strength, increase cardio and prevent injury.[/quote]
absolutley.
Our school has 10 classes a week each lasting about 2.5-3 hours. In a good week, I make it to all of them. I still lift at least 3 times a week, no exceptions. Just pick a program man, I’m on 5/3/1.
Strength & conditioning (compound moves, “pre-hab” exercises & roadwork) in the morning, skill work in the evening.