New Raw Bench Record

[mozhne]

It’s refreshing that there is ANYBODY in this wide world commenting on the craziness of Powerlifting equipment. Not too many years ago I got killed on Hatfields forum for coming out against Bench shirts. Powerlifting will always be a fringe sport but it remains even more on the fringes when some dude with 6 months of training can put on a shirt and strut back into the office/factory Monday morning and brag about a 350 bench. I don’t buy the line about ‘learning’ the gear. I’ve competed and worn squat suits galore and wraps. Tough to squeeze into yes, hurts your hips like hell yes, but basically you waddle to the rack and squat. There’s nothing to learn. Check the discussion on here about the guy who hit 405 raw and wants advice on what kind of shirt to buy for his assault on 500. See the kinds of poundage other guys tell him he can expect from a shirt. If some shoe company came out with an equal(performance enhancing) sprint shoe, your average high school jock running a 5.0 flat 40 would now run 4.0 and that is with a very conservative (20%) help. What about vertical jumps? What do you think the reaction would be at the NFL combine of someone showed up in a shirt designed for pumping out reps with 225 or some shoes outfitted with little air rockets to assist in the safety of the vertical jump?

Barry

[turbo43]

It’s ok to be small and weak. You too have your place in the world.

Erika, I certainly did not mean to get your panties in a bunch!!

I was only giving my opinion, but once again, someone believes it necessary to become offended by ones mere opinion. As you know, he benched more with gear than without. This is my point. Did you read what I wrote by chance or did you just jump to conclusions on your own. I stated that if one competes where others use them, then by all means, to keep up sometimes you must. I do not believe in them myself, that is my opinion. I have used them in competion in high school. I now bench 430 raw and that means much more to me than a 375 that I had in high school. I have gone from 350 to 430 in about 4 months time. I have documented proof if you need it.

When you have something comprable, please get back to me. I think you may need to re-read my comment. It was basically my opinion with a joke thrown in. PLEASE lighten up a little

[RickJames]

Okay I’m back.

[quote]basementD wrote:Does someone have to compete in football to watch it or to have an opinion? No, of course not. The same goes for powerlifting.

As long as someone states their opinion without personally attacking individuals, it should all be good.
[/quote]

The problem here is that not all opinions are equal. If my wife says that football is stupid because all they do is run around on the field and hit each other, is that opinion as valid as Peyton Manning’s or John Madden’s? Those that are involved in the sport or observe the sport intently are going to have opinions that matter more than someone who has never actually been in a venue where that sport is taking place.

[turbo43]

Powerlifting will always be a fringe sport but it remains even more on the fringes when some dude with 6 months of training can put on a shirt and strut back into the office/factory Monday morning and brag about a 350 bench.

Yes, Uh Huh.

basically you waddle to the rack and squat. There’s nothing to learn.

Tell me More!!!

[quote] What do you think the reaction would be at the NFL combine of someone showed up in a shirt designed for pumping out reps with 225 or some shoes outfitted with little air rockets to assist in the safety of the vertical jump?

Barry [/quote]

Exactly!!!

[RickJames]

[quote]beefcakemdphd wrote:
Why do people justify gear because of safety? [/quote]

Who here has? I think minimal gear can help with safety, or more specifically, allow certain lifters to compete much more safely. Anything beyond a Z suit and an Inzer Blast shirt is overkill in that area, though, so yes, arguing as safety being the reason for using one’s double denim shirt and canvas squat suit is ridiculous. The problem is that people will wear some gear for protection, then say, “Hell, I’m already wearing it, I may as well wear the best,” and it all goes to hell.

I have seen so many accidents occur because of gear. Gear gives support in some areas but not all. When bench shirts tear, the consequences are disastrous. I guarantee when I get my knees wrapped at contest, the pressure from my knee wraps ramming my knee caps into my femur is NOT heathy/safe.

I agree with a lot of this. Most of the problems come with excessive gear, in my opinion. This increases the danger of the sport and makes athletes pay more attention to correct form (note that many people have squatted 1000+ in squat suits and have not gotten hurt, so it can be safe).

Gear:Powerlifters = Pads:Football players. That is an incorrect analogy.

I think that ends after the Z suit and blast shirt as well. I DO think some safety is provided, especially for certain portions of the population, but anything beyond minimal gear is just for performance sake.

What is powerlifting? Is it a measure of an individual’s strength?

Powerlifting is a sport which has a large component coming from strength in certain pre-defined movements. Strength, however, is specific to the activity. If I decline press 400lbs, it doesn’t mean that I can flat bench press 400lbs, because they are different movements and thus one’s strength in both cannot be compared.

The problem comes when there are dozens of feds to choose from, because they each define what a “squat”, “bench press”, and “deadlift” are. Therefore you cannot compare the strength of someone lifting in the IPF to someone lifting in the WPO, as the movements are different. This is why powerlifting is not just a measure of strength, but a measure of how well one can demonstrate strength in certain movements under certain rules.

Practicing powerlifting does not necessitate the use of gear. In other sports, bicycling, rowing, pole vault, inherent in their name, mastering the use of equipment is a must.

But that doesn’t mean that the use of gear is bad in any way, shape, or form.

[RickJames]

[quote]mozhne wrote:
It’s refreshing that there is ANYBODY in this wide world commenting on the craziness of Powerlifting equipment.[/quote]

Oh my God, you dear boy, you are blind. Go to any powerlifting forum and check out the recent posts. The battle over gear has been raging for decades. Entire feds have been created because of this issue. So no, it’s not refreshing - it’s hackneyed.

Not too many years ago I got killed on Hatfields forum for coming out against Bench shirts.

You rebel, you!

Powerlifting will always be a fringe sport but it remains even more on the fringes when some dude with 6 months of training can put on a shirt and strut back into the office/factory Monday morning and brag about a 350 bench.

The fact that any man would brag about a 350 bench geared or raw is sad. And how many geared lifters have said that their geared lifts were the same as raw lifts? And why does it matter, it’s a sport that no one cares about anyway.

I don’t buy the line about ‘learning’ the gear. I’ve competed and worn squat suits galore and wraps. Tough to squeeze into yes, hurts your hips like hell yes, but basically you waddle to the rack and squat. There’s nothing to learn.

There are people benching less than me raw who bench WAY more than me in the same shirt I use. They had to learn the shirt to do that. There is a difference between completing a lift and mastering a lift. It’s like some kid lying down on the bench, benching the bar, then saying about Mendy’s 715, “Oh, anybody can bench.”

Check the discussion on here about the guy who hit 405 raw and wants advice on what kind of shirt to buy for his assault on 500. See the kinds of poundage other guys tell him he can expect from a shirt.

I checked it; did you? Read what people are telling him. He was told to choose a shirt based on his technique. He was also told to work his lockout (gasp - get stronger? I say thee nay!!!). 90+ percent of people could not complete a rep in a properly fitting bench shirt in their first session with it.

If some shoe company came out with an equal(performance enhancing) sprint shoe, your average high school jock running a 5.0 flat 40 would now run 4.0 and that is with a very conservative (20%) help. What about vertical jumps? What do you think the reaction would be at the NFL combine of someone showed up in a shirt designed for pumping out reps with 225 or some shoes outfitted with little air rockets to assist in the safety of the vertical jump?

Or what if someone came out with some kind of drug you take to get bigger, stronger and faster and the NFL started using it? What would people think?

Oh, they already have, and people eat that shit up.

[Keith_Wassung]

TASTES GREAT

[Keith_Wassung]

LESS FILLING

[RickJames]

[quote]turbo43 wrote:
Erika, I certainly did not mean to get your panties in a bunch!![/quote]

Then why’d you post something so narrowminded before?

I was only giving my opinion, but once again, someone believes it necessary to become offended by ones mere opinion.

If my opinion is that the Holocaust was a good thing, you think someone will get offended? You see, when you post inflammatory, narrowminded things (which you did), people will not respond with kittens and flowers.

I stated that if one competes where others use them, then by all means, to keep up sometimes you must. I do not believe in them myself, that is my opinion.

You also stated that it would be better off for your psyche.

I have used them in competion in high school. I now bench 430 raw and that means much more to me than a 375 that I had in high school. I have gone from 350 to 430 in about 4 months time. I have documented proof if you need it.

I’m happy for you, but you came off like a tool in the post Ericka responded to.

When you have something comprable, please get back to me.

She’s going to try to total elite at a national meet in June. WTF are you going to do besides bench in your basement? When you have something comparable to her accomplishments, get back to us.

I think you may need to re-read my comment. It was basically my opinion with a joke thrown in. PLEASE lighten up a little

You’re getting pretty wound up too, challenging a woman to out-bench you and everything. Big man on the internet.

[kenmen]

This is way ridiculous now. Let’s get back to lifting some weights and the discussion thereof.

[MikeTheBear]

These gear vs. no-gear debates are worse than some of the political/religious threads I’ve thread here on T-Nation. I think the best, and probably only way, to approach this is to look at these as two DISTINCT sports that measure strength in DIFFERENT ways. One of the justifications for gear use I’ve read, among many, is that you wouldn’t try and compete in a NASCAR race wearing just running shoes. That’s true. Then again, NASCAR racers don’t call themselves the fastest athletes in the world. And this is the problem in PL. People who like gear think only gear lifts are “real” lifts and vice versa.

BTW, Beefcake - I don’t think any knows the answer to your bench shirt as protective wear question and haven’t for some time. From what little I know of PL history and gear use, the original intent of the bench shirt was to protect the shoulders, especially of the older guys who wanted a few more lifts out of their bodies. Then people started to realize that these shirts helped people lift more and it took off from there. What started out as a tight-fitting polyester shirt has become the triple-ply canvas gear made from the same material used in making circus tents. Some gear is fine, and some jsut becomes plain excessive.

[cycomiko]

[quote]beefcakemdphd wrote:
Why do people justify gear because of safety?[/quote]
Safety? yes, they can increase safety to the musculature surrounding hte shoulder capsule, if you had used a shirt, you would understand this.
Extreme gear can create another host of problems.

Gear:Powerlifters = Pads:Football players. That is an incorrect analogy.

its not a perfect analogy, but lets look at it this way. Back in the dim dark ages there was a bicycle, people used to race them. One day some germans thought “fuck that, lets fit a motor”, and behold, they race them. Does the bicyclist sit on the internet and bitch constantly about motorcyclists not being pure by adding a fucking great engine to the bike? [quote]If there was shoe that augmented running speed 20+%, then that would be equivalent to gear. [/quote]
Ask the british cycling team about carbon fibre bikes. Back when lotus created the first CF bike for their team and their team alone that gave a 2-4second performance enhancement with absolutely no increase in the actual cylists perforamnce. Now every fucker has a CF and gets the same perforamnce. Where are the 10speeders bitching taht the cylists are cheating?
If you dislike equipment that much, why dont you join a fed, get involved, be elected to power and do fucking something about it.? or is sitting on your ass like a weak little gimp too hard already?

What is powerlifting? Is it a measure of an individual’s strength?

Powerlifting is NOT a measure of strength, its who lifts the most on the competition day. Strength is the major component (at least a very specific strength related to the three lifts) however, there are other factors at play. just like those with the best endurance do not always win the race. [quote]Practicing powerlifting does not necessitate the use of gear. In other sports, bicycling, rowing, pole vault, inherent in their name, mastering the use of equipment is a must. [/quote]
Within each federations guidelines there is a requirement to wear certain pieces of clothing, for example the IPF require tshirt and suit, if any other sport found performance could be enhanced because of making these costumes tight (you understand how bench shirts came around dont you?) do you think that the athletes would avoid it? say no, I dont want to win because that would be less pure. Fuck off. every single athlete will make every little attempt to attain maximal performance the rule book allows them, or outside of the rules if they want to go that way. If the rules in powerlifting allow the equipment, any lifter who wants to compete in a real competition (and most raw comps are pathetic) will use it, and use as much of it as they can get their hands on.

Its funny how most of the people bitching about gear are the weak, puny little bodybuilders who would be lucky to press 200 in a shirt let alone without.

oh ya

Cycomiko>RickJames

Domination

[cycomiko]

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
What started out as a tight-fitting polyester shirt has become the triple-ply canvas gear made from the same material used in making circus tents. Some gear is fine, and some jsut becomes plain excessive.[/quote]

please tell me the federation that allows triple ply gear?

and show me who actually wears a canvas shirt?

[mozhne]

Yea Rick I guess I haven’t been around too much lately. This raw vs. equipment deal is pretty cool though. What I was trying to point out is that, in my experience, on Dr. Squats site, several years ago (maybe 96-97), there was not one single post that supported raw lifting. The equipment users will never give up the equipment because they can’t take the mental letdown of being ‘weaker’ due to relying on their own strength and not a triple denim bench shirt that will give hundreds (I’ve read/heard anywhere from 150 to 200 + lbs)to their benches. The last meet I went to there was no way I was going to squat without my suit and wraps. Shit oh dear I would have knocked close to 100 lbs off my squat. Now I live in the backwoods of strength sports. Guys I have seen will damn sure brag about a 350 bench. Don’t be so f***ng smart ass that you haven’t seen someone brag about an even 300 lb. bench. Hell on this very board guys are trying to figure out how to crack the 300 lb. barrier. I guess it is a huge gap of opinion. Oh well, if I was only a whole lot stronger and a bit younger and a whole lot faster and not as scared I’d come out of retirement and kick all your asses!

Barry

[Ericka]

[quote]turbo43 wrote:
Erika, I certainly did not mean to get your panties in a bunch!!

I was only giving my opinion, but once again, someone believes it necessary to become offended by ones mere opinion. As you know, he benched more with gear than without. This is my point. Did you read what I wrote by chance or did you just jump to conclusions on your own. I stated that if one competes where others use them, then by all means, to keep up sometimes you must. I do not believe in them myself, that is my opinion. I have used them in competion in high school. I now bench 430 raw and that means much more to me than a 375 that I had in high school. I have gone from 350 to 430 in about 4 months time. I have documented proof if you need it.

When you have something comprable, please get back to me. I think you may need to re-read my comment. It was basically my opinion with a joke thrown in. PLEASE lighten up a little[/quote]

First of all I wear a thong. So, my panties are not in a bunch. i just get sick of hearing the same old b.s. about how crazy PL gear has gotten. Although there is some truth to it, each individual competitor gets to make his own choices where gear is concerned. For example, I wear a Metal Pro Squatter in competitions. I tried out some new double ply poly briefs recently with my suit, but the combination was just too much gear for me. So, I made the CHOICE to wear the suit only. Just because the more advanced gear is available does not make it a requirement.

Oh and just for the record Turbo…I might not bench as much as you, not many females do, but I am going to squat over 500 at nationals. That will be a PR over 200lbs in just over 1 years time. So, I think I’m more than qualified to speak on this subject.

[Massif]

I think it is an absolute shame that this thread has gone from celebrating one man’s WORLD RECORD BREAKING BENCH PRESS, to the same old arguement about gear vs no gear.

To all the non-gear freaks - Please shut the fuck up

To all the gear freaks - Please shut the fuck up

To anybody who would like to say “Holy shit, that is an awesome effort. Well done”, please speak up.

PS Holy shit, that is an awesome effort. Well done

[Improving]

[quote]RickJames wrote:
Okay I’m back.

basementD wrote:Does someone have to compete in football to watch it or to have an opinion? No, of course not. The same goes for powerlifting.

As long as someone states their opinion without personally attacking individuals, it should all be good.

The problem here is that not all opinions are equal. If my wife says that football is stupid because all they do is run around on the field and hit each other, is that opinion as valid as Peyton Manning’s or John Madden’s? Those that are involved in the sport or observe the sport intently are going to have opinions that matter more than someone who has never actually been in a venue where that sport is taking place.
[/quote]

Rick,

In the example you gave, your wife’s opinion is just as valid as Peyton Manning’s because her opinion is about if she likes football or not.

You don’t have to play football to know if you like it or not. I bet you don’t want to compete in a beauty pageant, even though you have never actually tried it.

Now if your wife was asked to comment on the West Coast offense, then her opinion doesn’t mean anything compared to Petyon’s because to comment on something you have to know something about the subject either firsthand or secondhand.

One doesn’t have to wear gear to know if they like it or not, one doesn’t have to use cocaine to know if they want to use it or not.

When one first decides to compete, they have to decide at some point, do I want to compete raw or with gear. They obviously had an opinion even though they didn’t compete yet.

I don’t want to ramble, I get what you are saying, basically the experienced know more about a subject than the inexperienced and I agree with you on that 100%.

One needs experience to compete, to train, etc…

One doesn’t need this experience to have an opinion, an opinion isn’t a fact, just one’s individual view on something.

Since I am not a powerlifter, I will stay out of these debates from now on. I am fan of the big three though and will always be interested in strength training.

Keep training and setting PRs. I am out of here.

[Improving]

Holy shit!!!, that is an awesome effort. Well done!!!

[Improving]

[quote]Ericka wrote:
I am going to squat over 500 at nationals. That will be a PR over 200lbs in just over 1 years time.
[/quote]

That’s impressive!! Good luck at the nationals!!!

[jsal33]

715 Bench press
amazing