New MMA Idea (No Seriously)

Training Powerlifting
41

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Racarnus wrote:

Thanks for the reply. I have never heard of any of these guys, and none of them returned many hits on google. I can’t really find anything out about them. Are they famous in certain circles?

Well I wouldn’t necessarily say famous, but they’re well known in a lot of martial arts circles and they know a lot of people (Frank Shamrock, Maurice Smith, Micheal DePasquale Jr., Joe Lewis, Bill Wallace, Matt Hughes, Jeremy Horn, the Gracies, etc…).

You can find out more about Shihan Walt Lysak Jr. here:

http://realityconnection.nfshost.com/node/29

More about Shihan Charlie Lysak here:

http://www.primalstrength.com/primalstrength07_002.htm

And unfortunately, Shihan Bushey doesn’t have any info on the web (that I know of).

Good training,

Sentoguy[/quote]

Damn strong resumes.

42

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
adubswils wrote:

Never heard of the term “dijome”, but the “technique” if you want to call it that, that I am talking about is dependent on adductor strength. You simply squeeze inward with your knees on the opponent’s floating ribs, thus making it either difficult to breath or if you’re really strong causing a submission. Now yes, you are using a larger stronger muscle (the hip adductors) against a weak point in the opponent’s anatomy (the floating ribs), which is pretty much the basis behind just about every grappling technique.

I do agree though that it’s hard to believe that other people haven’t thought about this tactic, nor is the concept behind it anything out of the ordinary.

Good training,

Sentoguy[/quote]

No. Thats not the sub. You are full of shit.

43

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
But isn’t that true for every single technique in existence? Seriously, since you are so adamantly arguing the efficacy of this tactic, why don’t you name for me one single technique that works 100% of the time, for 100% of practitioners, against 100% of opponents. You can’t because no such technique exists.

Once again, all I’m saying is that tapping people with this tactic is possible, that I know several people who have developed it to a very high degree and who would submit the vast majority of opponent’s they might face with it. That’s all.

Good training,

Sentoguy[/quote]

A properly applied rear naked choke will put someone unconscious 100 percent of the time. Once it is sunk you are going to sleep. Plain and simple.

Now, you dont even understand the mechanics behind the actual body crush so why should anyone here listen to you. You seem to be implying that you can cause the tap out in an open guard. LOL.

Now, you can keep talking out of your ass or you can provide a link to the listings showing your instructos win by body strangle/crush or some variation. That way we can evaluate the actual level of competition he faced and whether you are making things up or not.

It would even be nice to know how many of his matches he has won with these fabulously strong legs of his. I mean, jesus christ, he weighs 145 pounds and is stronger than 230 pound grapplers (how fat are the grapplers he is training with?). He must have some kind of fabulous competition record. Pull guy into guard, crush guy, collect trophy. So pony up the stats.

On another note, stop riding the coat tails of your instructors.

44

sentoguy

ok “people who do this for a living” i.e. pride fighters,ufc fighters and kotc fighters i have never seen this done in a “pro” fight it will not work by a pro fight i mean one that the athletic commission is at.you know like one your shinhan whoever refs at which none of us have seen what event did your shinhan ref at??To there credit the crawl workout looks interesting.read the original post his thought was why don’t people do this in mma the answer is because it doesnt work.not do you know anyone who can make anyone tap with the scissor squeeze super hold.I checked the records of your two shinhans and neither of them have any fights in the mma world.

better yet show me a link or some proof of this move working in a mma fight it might work in a seminar but not in an mma fight and isnt a practiced technique because it doesnt work.i dont think your talking out your ass but i’m sure it won’t work in a mma fight so prove me wrong.i dont need to travel across the country to see it just show me one documented fight where it wins the fight thats all…

45

adubswils

i’m with you 100% i searched both of his trainers and no fight records so who knows!!!

46

[quote]adubswils wrote:

A properly applied rear naked choke will put someone unconscious 100 percent of the time. Once it is sunk you are going to sleep. Plain and simple.
[/quote]

Well, in theory I agree. The point I was trying to make was that due to certain physical traits (big necks, overly muscular arms, etc…) it may not be possible for some individuals to properly apply a rear naked choke on certain other individuals. Therefore while the mechanism of the choke would always work, it won’t work for certain individuals against certain other individuals.

The same is true of all other grappling techniques. For instance, had I not personally experienced an exception to the rule, I’d have probably believed that an Americana would work on anyone, if applied correctly. However, I happen to know an individual who you can properly apply an Americana to and actually touch his elbow to the ground and he won’t feel it.

He is the only person I’ve ever seen with that degree of hyperflexibility, but it only takes one example to prove that something won’t work 100% of the time against 100% of opponents.

That’s all I was saying.

No, absolutely not what I was implying. You need to have a closed guard for the tactic to work. And trust me I understand the mechanics behind the technique just fine.

I honestly don’t know of a link to such a listing. I’m not even sure that the event where Shihan Bushey submitted (made puke) that guy was televised. It was a NAGA run show.

What I am offering you is first hand proof of the techniques effectiveness. Come feel if for yourself. If you don’t choose to then fine, your prerogative. But then also realize that I am offering you proof, it’s just not in the form that you want.

Once again, I’m not saying that he would submit every guy he faced with this technique. I personally only know of him submitting that one individual with the technique (although admittedly there could be other examples that I don’t know about) in competition.

I know he has submitted quite a few while sparring though. Some of which have rolled with some pretty decent UFC guys out there and held their own (if not better).

And don’t make assumptions that he isn’t training with strong athletic training partners. He is just extremely strong, probably due to training with Shihan Walt and Charlie for decades.

Seriously, if you doubt what I say so much come to the camp. Ask him to roll with you, see for yourself.

[quote]
On another note, stop riding the coat tails of your instructors.[/quote]

I am not riding any coat tails. I was simply stating personal experience. My instructors don’t need me to play them up to know how good they are, nor have they in any way even encouraged me to try to spread their names or accomplishments around. In fact, they probably don’t even know I’m writing this.

The OP asked a question. Based on my personal experience I answered. If your experience is different then fine, but that doesn’t make me wrong.

Good training,

Sentoguy

47

[quote]POINT312 wrote:
sentoguy

ok “people who do this for a living” i.e. pride fighters,ufc fighters and kotc fighters i have never seen this done in a “pro” fight it will not work by a pro fight i mean one that the athletic commission is at.you know like one your shinhan whoever refs at which none of us have seen what event did your shinhan ref at??

To there credit the crawl workout looks interesting.read the original post his thought was why don’t people do this in mma the answer is because it doesnt work.not do you know anyone who can make anyone tap with the scissor squeeze super hold.I checked the records of your two shinhans and neither of them have any fights in the mma world.
[/quote]

If you mean someone submitting someone with the technique, then I have never seen anyone do that in Pride, UFC, IFL, KOTC, etc… either. Perhaps no one has thought to do it (unlikely, but possible). Or perhaps no one who has thought to do it has the strength to do it.

Or perhaps the guys who have thought to do it and had the strength to do it chose not to do it in favor of another technique they felt more comfortable with.

My point is that just because we haven’t seen someone do it in MMA, doesn’t make it impossible or ineffective. There could be numerous reasons that we haven’t seen it besides that it “doesn’t work”.

[quote]
better yet show me a link or some proof of this move working in a mma fight it might work in a seminar but not in an mma fight and isnt a practiced technique because it doesnt work.i dont think your talking out your ass but i’m sure it won’t work in a mma fight so prove me wrong.i dont need to travel across the country to see it just show me one documented fight where it wins the fight thats all…[/quote]

See above. “Working” could mean many things. It “worked” for Maurice in his fight against Coleman, as in it tired Coleman out, thus allowing Maurice to win the fight. I do not however know of an MMA fight which ended via submission due to a scissor crush.

It may not be a practiced technique because not many people can make it work, that still doesn’t mean some can’t. You also seem to be under the impression that things are only valid if you see them in MMA fights. That is certainly not the case.

Once again, the only proof I can offer you is first hand experience. If you want to know for sure come feel it for yourself, if you don’t fine. But your refusal of my offering of proof does not disprove it.

Good training,

Sentoguy

48

let me know when you guys are in vegas if its that big of a deal to you contact anyone at fightclublv.com and ill be there to witness this display but i won’t travel across the country to see this spectical.

49

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Well, in theory I agree. The point I was trying to make was that due to certain physical traits (big necks, overly muscular arms, etc…) it may not be possible for some individuals to properly apply a rear naked choke on certain other individuals. Therefore while the mechanism of the choke would always work, it won’t work for certain individuals against certain other individuals.

The same is true of all other grappling techniques. For instance, had I not personally experienced an exception to the rule, I’d have probably believed that an Americana would work on anyone, if applied correctly. However, I happen to know an individual who you can properly apply an Americana to and actually touch his elbow to the ground and he won’t feel it.

He is the only person I’ve ever seen with that degree of hyperflexibility, but it only takes one example to prove that something won’t work 100% of the time against 100% of opponents.

That’s all I was saying.
[/quote]

Are you kidding? You think large neck muscles protect you from the rear naked choke? You think that large arm muscles prevent you from applying the choke? You should let Jeff Monson know. If someone is allowed to sink the choke then no matter how strong your neck muscles you are going to sleep. Sorry to destroy your fantasies.

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
No, absolutely not what I was implying. You need to have a closed guard for the tactic to work. And trust me I understand the mechanics behind the technique just fine.
[/quote]

You obviously do not. You do realize that the reason for maintaining the closed guard is precisely because you cannot perform the submission with the adductors alone? No you do not. Oh well…

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
I honestly don’t know of a link to such a listing. I’m not even sure that the event where Shihan Bushey submitted (made puke) that guy was televised. It was a NAGA run show.
[/quote]

A NAGA run show with no verifiable match results? lol

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
What I am offering you is first hand proof of the techniques effectiveness. Come feel if for yourself. If you don’t choose to then fine, your prerogative. But then also realize that I am offering you proof, it’s just not in the form that you want.
[/quote]

This is the same kind of shit that TMA guys offer. Maybe you could show me your no touch knockout skills if I were to come visit your gym. Or any other bizarre claims. Here is the template: Make extraordinary claim. Become frustrated when people do not instantly believe you. Offer up an impossible standard for verification (like traveling across country just to get placed in a sub), instead of giving some simple verification (like actual competition records). Declare victory when the other person cannot travel across country to verify the claim.

Look, this isn’t love. I do not need to experience it to understand. I don’t need to travel across country. Provide competition results or shut your mouth. Put up or shut up.

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Once again, I’m not saying that he would submit every guy he faced with this technique. I personally only know of him submitting that one individual with the technique (although admittedly there could be other examples that I don’t know about) in competition.

I know he has submitted quite a few while sparring though. Some of which have rolled with some pretty decent UFC guys out there and held their own (if not better).

And don’t make assumptions that he isn’t training with strong athletic training partners. He is just extremely strong, probably due to training with Shihan Walt and Charlie for decades.

Seriously, if you doubt what I say so much come to the camp. Ask him to roll with you, see for yourself.
[/quote]

See the steps above.

50

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
If you mean someone submitting someone with the technique, then I have never seen anyone do that in Pride, UFC, IFL, KOTC, etc… either. Perhaps no one has thought to do it (unlikely, but possible). Or perhaps no one who has thought to do it has the strength to do it.

Or perhaps the guys who have thought to do it and had the strength to do it chose not to do it in favor of another technique they felt more comfortable with.

My point is that just because we haven’t seen someone do it in MMA, doesn’t make it impossible or ineffective. There could be numerous reasons that we haven’t seen it besides that it “doesn’t work”.[/quote]

It certainly makes one wonder if it is ineffective in the context of MMA (as opposed to sub grappling or judo where strikes are not allowed) which is the context of this thread.

The simple point that you do not win MMA or sub grappling tournaments by training the leg muscles is all that needs to be made.

What I think is funny is that some moron suggests a “new” idea for solving the grappling problem that includes training the thighs “thigh master” style and you approach it with some seriousness instead of laughing your ass off.

51

I don’t get you two.

Sentoguy is one of the most helpful and polite MMA speakers here. Someone asked a question and he answered as truthfully as he could.
You don’t have to believe him, that’s your choice. But stop that childish flaming.

I remember a bet on national television where a petite woman, say 55 Kilograms owned a Bodybuilding champ who probably weighed twice as much in a display of adductor strength - and she did it thoroughly. I can imagine that rare individuals, who on top of that train for that particular technique, can tap out guys at least in their weight class or at least hinder them effectively in their game.

52

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
I don’t get you two.

Sentoguy is one of the most helpful and polite MMA speakers here. Someone asked a question and he answered as truthfully as he could.
You don’t have to believe him, that’s your choice. But stop that childish flaming.

asking for proven results is not flaming actually i will now settle for what ufc event his shinjin or whatever was the ref forget the whole squeeze in mma thing.if he was to answer the question truthfully he would have said i have never seen it in competetion but i did see it done in a demonstration or practice so maybe!!!

I remember a bet on national television where a petite woman, say 55 Kilograms owned a Bodybuilding champ who probably weighed twice as much in a display of adductor strength - and she did it thoroughly. I can imagine that rare individuals, who on top of that train for that particular technique, can tap out guys at least in their weight class or at least hinder them effectively in their game.
[/quote]

how can you train for something that won’t work please stay on track apples to apples please.the coleman fight story he’s sayiing from the squeeze caused coleman to gas i find that hard to belive but maybe it would be ok if coleman said it i know randleman trains with my coach and coleman has been at the gym working striking so if i ever see him in there again i will ask him for sure!!!

53

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
I don’t get you two.

Sentoguy is one of the most helpful and polite MMA speakers here. Someone asked a question and he answered as truthfully as he could.
You don’t have to believe him, that’s your choice.

just because someone thinks he is wrong dont make him a bad person god you sound like my wife…

54

[quote]POINT312 wrote:
let me know when you guys are in vegas if its that big of a deal to you contact anyone at fightclublv.com and ill be there to witness this display but i won’t travel across the country to see this spectical.[/quote]

It’s not that big a deal to me. You’re the one making it into a big deal. I don’t need your guys’ approval to know what I’ve felt or experienced firsthand. I offered you guys a way to feel this in person, a first hand experience “proof”. If you don’t want to except my invitation then that’s just fine by me. No hard feelings, seriously.

But, like someone who you probably do know (Rickson Gracie) said, “The mind is like an umbrella, it works best when it’s open.”

Perhaps you should open your mind and realize that just because you personally haven’t seen something doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist, or isn’t effective.

Good training,

Sentoguy

55

[quote]adubswils wrote:

Are you kidding? You think large neck muscles protect you from the rear naked choke? You think that large arm muscles prevent you from applying the choke? You should let Jeff Monson know. If someone is allowed to sink the choke then no matter how strong your neck muscles you are going to sleep. Sorry to destroy your fantasies.
[/quote]

It depends on how large the muscles are and how short the person trying to apply the choke’s arms are. For instance, I doubt that “Wee Man” could even get his arm around Tony Siragusa’s neck to apply a choke. Extreme you say? Perhaps. But it still is an example, thereby disproving that a rear naked choke will work for 100% of people 100% of the time against 100% of opponents.

No, it’s not going to happen in an MMA fight, and since this discussion was about a new “MMA Idea” it’s probably not all that relevant. But the statement I was making was in regards to the whole population, not just MMA. My fault for not being clear about what I meant and getting somewhat off topic (sorry I’m a RMA first, and an MMA fan second). In MMA where there are weightclasses, then I agree, a rear naked choke properly applied (and undefended) will work 100% of the time.

Answering for me now I see. Yes, I realize that the submission cannot be performed with the adductors alone. I never said that it was. I said that it was dependent upon adductor strength. That doesn’t mean that it is dependent on ONLY adductor strength (two different statements). Yes you need to also straighten the legs (which involves the hip extensors and quadriceps) to effectively apply the technique. But you still also need strong adductors.

Don’t believe me I see. Well, next time I see Shihan Bushey, or Shihan Walt, I’ll get the details for you how’s that. Then you can contact Kip Kollar if you like and ask him to verify the results for you.

Big words for someone sitting behind a computer screen who isn’t even willing to come out and test something out in person.

I offered that form of proof because, not only is it the best form of proof there is in my opinion, but also because unfortunately it’s the only form I have to offer at present. If you can’t make it then fine. I don’t need to declare victory, nor prove anything to you or anyone else questioning the validity of my response to the OP. You are not a governing body nor any kind of MA expert who’s approval I need.

I’ve felt it firsthand and know of the caliber people that my instructors have worked with. They would be the first to tell you that there are very few people out there with the leg strength to pull this off against another highly trained MA. But, they would also admit that they are in that minority.

Your opinion is just that and nothing more, your opinion. It doesn’t influence my experience in the least. I was just trying to give you guys the opportunity to test your theory in person, while also having the privilege of working with some world class MA’s. If you refuse that’s your loss, not mine.

Good training,

Sentoguy