The only one I’ve seen this work on is weak newcomers to the sparring mat.
Sort of like putting your forearm on someone’s neck and pressing, if they haven’t had it happen to them before, they freak out.
Now whether this will work in competition is another matter, I am highly skeptical that it would.
Did sherdog start sending people over here?
[quote]CaliforniaLaw wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
Shihan Bushey (although only weighing around 145 lbs) has tapped out superheavyweights in competition using this technique in competition, one actually puked as a result.
Video please.[/quote]
Really wish I had one. If you don’t believe me come to the Lysak’s Reality Martial Arts Weekend which will be held on the last weekend of August, and ask Shihan Bushey to put you in his guard and scissor crush you as hard as he can.
Then you’ll know for certain. And if you’re really feeling brave have Shihan Charlie put you in his guard and tell him to scissor crush you as hard as he can. There’s really no substitute to actually feeling something for yourself.
At the very least you’ll probably learn something new and get a fantastic workout as a result of coming.
Good training,
Sentoguy
[quote]Racarnus wrote:
Thanks for the reply. I have never heard of any of these guys, and none of them returned many hits on google. I can’t really find anything out about them. Are they famous in certain circles?
[/quote]
Well I wouldn’t necessarily say famous, but they’re well known in a lot of martial arts circles and they know a lot of people (Frank Shamrock, Maurice Smith, Micheal DePasquale Jr., Joe Lewis, Bill Wallace, Matt Hughes, Jeremy Horn, the Gracies, etc…).
You can find out more about Shihan Walt Lysak Jr. here:
http://realityconnection.nfshost.com/node/29
More about Shihan Charlie Lysak here:
http://www.primalstrength.com/primalstrength07_002.htm
And unfortunately, Shihan Bushey doesn’t have any info on the web (that I know of).
Good training,
Sentoguy
[quote]CaliforniaLaw wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
Shihan Bushey (although only weighing around 145 lbs) has tapped out superheavyweights in competition using this technique in competition, one actually puked as a result.
Video please.[/quote]
Why are you so convinced that it’s impossible?
[quote]Racarnus wrote:
Why are you so convinced that it’s impossible?[/quote]
Because I have very strong legs and have held enough people in my guard to realize you can’t crush people. I have long and flexible enough legs to get guys in figure four/body locks while in the guard. You can make someone uncomfortable and even make it uncomfortable to breath, but you can’t freaking crush their organs.
Plus, SentoGuy is one of those “deadly arts”/krav magna types. He is always making claims that traditional martial artists make: “We can do this. No, there is no video. And we’ve never done it in competition. But we can do this. Just come to our gym.”
All of the people in this video would tell you there is a “death touch,” and that if we’d just come to their gym, we’d see it:
So if you posted, “Is there a death touch,” someone would say, “Yes. I have seen it happen!” Probably sentoguy would. Of course, there is no such thing. But these people actually believe this stuff.
You know, I haven’t ever written any intelligent scientific papers of an advanced order. Nor, have I had the opportunity to train with the great grandmasters of the most sophisticated arts in the most sacred of gyms. However, I am not stupid enough to even contemplate an attempt at squeezing someone into submission.
There are just too many other options to focus on that wins fights, particularly ones in MMA. This must be some kind of a joke, a sly joke involving trickery and deceit by a brilliant mind.
[quote]CaliforniaLaw wrote:
Racarnus wrote:
Why are you so convinced that it’s impossible?
Because I have very strong legs and have held enough people in my guard to realize you can’t crush people. I have long and flexible enough legs to get guys in figure four/body locks while in the guard. You can make someone uncomfortable and even make it uncomfortable to breath, but you can’t freaking crush their organs.
Plus, SentoGuy is one of those “deadly arts”/krav magna types. He is always making claims that traditional martial artists make: “We can do this. No, there is no video. And we’ve never done it in competition. But we can do this. Just come to our gym.”
All of the people in this video would tell you there is a “death touch,” and that if we’d just come to their gym, we’d see it:
So if you posted, “Is there a death touch,” someone would say, “Yes. I have seen it happen!” Probably sentoguy would. Of course, there is no such thing. But these people actually believe this stuff.[/quote]
LOL, death touch. LOL.
“Deadly arts”/Krav Maga (it’s Maga by the way) types? Please explain how Jiu-Jitsu, kickboxing, Pankration, wrestling, weapons is in any way ineffective.
Not to mention that I stated that it has been done in competition. Perhaps you missed that part. Of course not everyone has the genetic ability to reach that level of strength, but it is possible. Not everyone has the ability to close the COC #3 either, or #4 for that matter, but there are people out there who can do it.
And just to give you a point of reference in terms of Shihan Charlie, he closed the COC #3 gripper the very first time he tried! He is ridiculously strong, powerful and skilled.
Shihan Walt and Shihan Charlie coached the 1999 NAGA National Submission Grappling team, they helped Frank Shamrock coach Maurice Smith for his fight against Mark Coleman (which Maurice won by the way) along with cornering Maurice during the fight, and actually taught Maurice to use the scissor crush against Coleman. Now, Maurice only had a short time to practice it so he couldn’t make Coleman tap using it, but he did cause Coleman to gas at least partly due to his using it (along with the “muffler” which the Lysaks also taught him to use).
How many National Submission Grappling teams have you coached? How many UFC champions have brought you in to help train other fighters for their championship fights (and had the fighter actually win their fight as a result)? How long have you been practicing Jiu-Jitsu? What rank are you?
Shihan Walt and Charlie have 60+ years of Jiu-Jitsu training between the two of them, Walt is a 8th degree black belt in Jiu-Jitsu (Charlie is a 7th), multiple time Martial Arts Hall of Fame inductee, 6th degree black belt in American Kickboxing under Joe Lewis (as is Charlie), 7th degree black belt in Pankration and the list goes on.
The difference between the “death touch” guys and we Reality Based guys is that if you actually came to our school, you’d find out real quick that we can back up what we say.
So seriously, I mean no hostility or disrespect when I say, come to the weekend long seminar. Ask Shihan Bushey, and Shihan Charlie if you like, to put you in their guard and scissor crush you. That’s the only way that you will know for certain that what I’m telling you is true.
Like I said before, at the very least you’ll more than likely learn something new and get a hell of a workout as the result of coming.
Good training,
Sentoguy
[quote]CaliforniaLaw wrote:
Racarnus wrote:
Why are you so convinced that it’s impossible?
Because I have very strong legs and have held enough people in my guard to realize you can’t crush people. I have long and flexible enough legs to get guys in figure four/body locks while in the guard. You can make someone uncomfortable and even make it uncomfortable to breath, but you can’t freaking crush their organs.
Plus, SentoGuy is one of those “deadly arts”/krav magna types. He is always making claims that traditional martial artists make: “We can do this. No, there is no video. And we’ve never done it in competition. But we can do this. Just come to our gym.”
All of the people in this video would tell you there is a “death touch,” and that if we’d just come to their gym, we’d see it:
So if you posted, “Is there a death touch,” someone would say, “Yes. I have seen it happen!” Probably sentoguy would. Of course, there is no such thing. But these people actually believe this stuff.[/quote]
I agree on this one, I’ve been in the guards of some extremely strong-legged people who would sometimes clamp down and make it uncomfortable, but not nearly enough to crush me, I especially find it hard to believe that a 145 lbs individual could do it to a heavyweight competitor with such force that he had to tap. I’m not going to say its impossible because there are some freaks out there, but I’d need to hear more or see some footage before I’d believe it.
Body triangles from the back, however, have been much more painful and effective for taking away my wind (not a submission per se, but still very uncomfortable especially if the guy has thick legs and you’re not quite skinny) but they open the user up to being footlocked rather easily if he is too low on the hips.
Believe it or not Slim, it’s true.
Shihan Bushey is unbelievably strong for his size, in fact, I’d say he’s stronger than most 230 lb guys I’ve seen. You really have to feel his scissor crush to believe it.
He has also competed in and if not won, than at least placed in quite a few grappling tournaments, while competing in the superheavyweight division.
He used to practice (and still does to my knowledge) scissor crushing trees. So, when he gets a person between his legs it’s “like having a marshmallow” between his legs. Shihan Walt and Charlie used to do the same thing, along with doing the same thing while performing other submissions like chokes, armbars, straight ankle locks, etc… on tree while actually trying to crush them/break them.
Good training,
Sentoguy
I dunno that a normal person could actually break something or crush internal organs, of course there may be a ‘freak’ or two out there, but I have had real strong people squeeze me as hard as they can and dude it hurts something fierce. Its especially effective if you position your legs right over the floating ribs and squeeze.
If your opponent is tired it kinda works like covering their mouth, a good wear out technique. Problem is if it doesn’t work you’ll wear your legs out and your guard will suffer because of that fatigue. So to answer your question directly, its probably possible but not likely for most people. To answer it indirectly I think you’d be better served to spend time mastering set-ups for armbar, triangle, kimura and a couple nice sweeps.
IMHO you could probably tap some people like that but you could probably tap those same weak-bodies 1000 other ways. The people who it fails on will hand you your ass for trying it. The amount of time you’d have to spend developing such herculian adductors could be spent in countless other ways that will prove more fruitfull and constructive.
Your question said mma not submission grappling either way it wont work.To do it you have to get your hips up and that will make your shoulders flat and your head will be on the mat too usually.In mma from there you throw punchs like your shooting an arrow straight from your chin to his that will stop him from doing that…now lets say at grapplers quest in the kids division maybe in adult no way i dont care about the credentials your idol has alot of things will hurt you if you let them get you in that spot.I have trained with alot of machado trained guys they are very good at crushing but not like that.If you use that logic you should train your ass muscles and sit on someones face and squeeze maybe they will tap but only if they let you do it…
[quote]POINT312 wrote:
Your question said mma not submission grappling either way it wont work.To do it you have to get your hips up and that will make your shoulders flat and your head will be on the mat too usually.In mma from there you throw punchs like your shooting an arrow straight from your chin to his that will stop him from doing that…now lets say at grapplers quest in the kids division maybe in adult no way i dont care about the credentials your idol has alot of things will hurt you if you let them get you in that spot.I have trained with alot of machado trained guys they are very good at crushing but not like that.If you use that logic you should train your ass muscles and sit on someones face and squeeze maybe they will tap but only if they let you do it… [/quote]
Listen, I am not suggesting that this is the only way to finish someone from the gaurd. Nor am I suggesting that you just squeeze them and do nothing else. You obviously would want to tie up their arms and keep control of their head to prevent them from stacking/slamming you on yours. But seriously, what decent grappler isn’t always trying to do that? How are you going to throw a punch effectively from that position to someone’s face who is controlling your head and one of your arms? Maybe to the body yes, but to the head, no.
Someone simply asked if it was possible to tap people by squeezing them (scissor crushing them). I happen to know several people who can do it. It’s just that simple. Can everyone develop that level of strength? Probably not. Are there other important aspects of combat that might be more beneficial to spend one’s energy on? Sure. But that’s wasn’t the OP’s question.
Good training,
Sentoguy
[quote]Racarnus wrote:
As I sit here procrastinating for my neuroscience term paper I had an idea. I wonder why no one’s done it. Develop obscene strength in the leg adductors so that you can win a fight just by pulling guard. Is it doable? I tried it on my girlfriend and she screamed.
Is it possible enough to develop enough strength to break someone’s hip, rupture some internal organs or interfere with breathing or otherwise cause a tap out? These are the kinds of things I think about to keep myself from being productive.[/quote]
Its sucks to have to swim through shit to get an answer to your question…and what’s so bad about Krav Maga,California Law? Not like it’s taekwondo…lol.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Yes, it’s possible. I know of several people who can tap people by just squeezing them while in guard. In Sento we call this a “scissor crush”.
Shihan Bushey (although only weighing around 145 lbs) has tapped out superheavyweights in competition using this technique in competition, one actually puked as a result.
Shihan Walt also has extremely strong legs and I’ve seen him tap many people using a scissor crush.
And Shihan Charlie, well I honestly believe that he could break ribs and/or rupture internal organs if he wanted to, just by squeezing them with his legs.
But also keep in mind that the above mentioned men have been practicing Jiu-Jitsu (and scissor crushing) for 30+ years each, not to mention being extremely naturally strong and training to be able to do so.
Good luck and good training,
Sentoguy[/quote]
Uh… the submission you are calling leg scissors is a standard submission called dojime and is not what the OP described as it does not rely significantly on the adductors. Trying to employ smallmuscles like the adductors against someones trunk is an excercise in futility.
Leg scissors, dojime, can catch someone, but all standard escapes from guard are defenses. The superheavyweight that was caught by your instructor should be ashamed of himself.
Just to reiterate. This does not require superhuman strength in the leg adductors. Jesus. Its using a fulcrum against a weak point in the body… Hmm sounds like the basic principles behind all submissions.
There is a similar submission that requires the use of the arms to help compress the body and has mechanics which better resemble what the OP was talking about. This is also a named submission that submission grappling people will be familiar with.
But, christ, its not like no one has thought about scissoring some guys abdomen before. Why do some morons show up here, whom clearly have no grappling experience, spout off with the intention of expanding on thousands of years of grappling knowledge? How stupid do you have to be?
Listen, I am not suggesting that this is the only way to finish someone from the gaurd. Nor am I suggesting that you just squeeze them and do nothing else. You obviously would want to tie up their arms and keep control of their head to prevent them from stacking/slamming you on yours. But seriously, what decent grappler isn’t always trying to do that? How are you going to throw a punch effectively from that position to someone’s face who is controlling your head and one of your arms? Maybe to the body yes, but to the head, no.
Someone simply asked if it was possible to tap people by squeezing them (scissor crushing them). I happen to know several people who can do it. It’s just that simple. Can everyone develop that level of strength? Probably not. Are there other important aspects of combat that might be more beneficial to spend one’s energy on? Sure. But that’s wasn’t the OP’s question.
Good training,
Sentoguy
[/quote]
i guess we can manipulate the conversation any way we want it to go now you want head and arm control to do the move you mention.I’m telling you it won’t work against someone who does this for a living i have seen alot of people who can hit you very hard even if you have head and arm control if you have either arm the opposite side of your head is open to strikes think about it.
I won’t argue with you anymore that move won’t work in reality or in a cage or ring or mma event it might work down at rex kwon do i don’t know.If it was effective everyone would be doing it so since noone is doing it i guess it don’t work if it was that easy everyone would be doing it and ending mma fights his question was mma related and it won’t work.If you know guys who do it all the time then get them a pro card and they should win every event and win lots of money doing that.
I’ve seen it happen in kids’ grappling competitions, kid squeezed another one till he puked. I’ve never seen it work with adults, although I have been made and made others very uncomfortable. I think it’d be more feasible for BJJ than MMA though, because if someone tried to “scissor crush”* me in MMA I’d just punch them.
*I’ve never heard that term before, but I like it.
[quote]adubswils wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
Yes, it’s possible. I know of several people who can tap people by just squeezing them while in guard. In Sento we call this a “scissor crush”.
Shihan Bushey (although only weighing around 145 lbs) has tapped out superheavyweights in competition using this technique in competition, one actually puked as a result.
Shihan Walt also has extremely strong legs and I’ve seen him tap many people using a scissor crush.
And Shihan Charlie, well I honestly believe that he could break ribs and/or rupture internal organs if he wanted to, just by squeezing them with his legs.
But also keep in mind that the above mentioned men have been practicing Jiu-Jitsu (and scissor crushing) for 30+ years each, not to mention being extremely naturally strong and training to be able to do so.
Good luck and good training,
Sentoguy
Uh… the submission you are calling leg scissors is a standard submission called dojime and is not what the OP described as it does not rely significantly on the adductors. Trying to employ smallmuscles like the adductors against someones trunk is an excercise in futility.
Leg scissors, dojime, can catch someone, but all standard escapes from guard are defenses. The superheavyweight that was caught by your instructor should be ashamed of himself.
Just to reiterate. This does not require superhuman strength in the leg adductors. Jesus. Its using a fulcrum against a weak point in the body… Hmm sounds like the basic principles behind all submissions.
There is a similar submission that requires the use of the arms to help compress the body and has mechanics which better resemble what the OP was talking about. This is also a named submission that submission grappling people will be familiar with.
But, christ, its not like no one has thought about scissoring some guys abdomen before. Why do some morons show up here, whom clearly have no grappling experience, spout off with the intention of expanding on thousands of years of grappling knowledge? How stupid do you have to be?
[/quote]
Never heard of the term “dijome”, but the “technique” if you want to call it that, that I am talking about is dependent on adductor strength. You simply squeeze inward with your knees on the opponent’s floating ribs, thus making it either difficult to breath or if you’re really strong causing a submission. Now yes, you are using a larger stronger muscle (the hip adductors) against a weak point in the opponent’s anatomy (the floating ribs), which is pretty much the basis behind just about every grappling technique.
I do agree though that it’s hard to believe that other people haven’t thought about this tactic, nor is the concept behind it anything out of the ordinary.
Good training,
Sentoguy
[quote]POINT312 wrote:
i guess we can manipulate the conversation any way we want it to go now you want head and arm control to do the move you mention.I’m telling you it won’t work against someone who does this for a living i have seen alot of people who can hit you very hard even if you have head and arm control if you have either arm the opposite side of your head is open to strikes think about it.
I won’t argue with you anymore that move won’t work in reality or in a cage or ring or mma event it might work down at rex kwon do i don’t know.If it was effective everyone would be doing it so since noone is doing it i guess it don’t work if it was that easy everyone would be doing it and ending mma fights his question was mma related and it won’t work.If you know guys who do it all the time then get them a pro card and they should win every event and win lots of money doing that.
[/quote]
How is that manipulating the conversation? I never once stated that you should just lay there and squeeze and stop doing all of the other things that a decent grappler would always try to be doing. You on the other hand were trying to make it seem like I was saying just that. All I did was to clarify my statement.
As far as it working on someone who “does this for a living” does what, Martial arts? MMA? I’ve seen it work on both. But once again it was done by others who also do this for a living and are extremely strong and skilled. I’ll extend the same invitation to you that I extended to CaliLaw. Come to the Lysak’s Reality Martial Arts weekend the last weekend in August. Ask Shihan Bushey, Shihan Walt, and/or Shihan Charlie to put you in their guard and scissor crush you as hard as they can. Then you’ll know for certain whether I’m telling the truth or talking out my ass.
As for being able to be hit hard in the head while in head and arm control, it depends. If you know how to position your own head while doing a head and arm control it’s extremely difficult for your opponent to hit you in the head. Yes, sometimes they will set you up with a couple shots to the body to open you up, but if you position yourself well, it’s extremely difficult to land solid, damaging, shots to the head. Now, if we’re talking about a real fight and you can do things like rabbit punches or eye/nerve attacks to create space to punch, then ok. But in MMA and grappling, those things are illegal.
Not to mention the fact that you’re not going to have much time to react. The “scissor crush” is going to happen in a fraction of a second and is going to immediately start taking away your wind, if not causing a lot of pain. Whether this will make you tap or not depends on both the strength of the “scissor crusher’s” legs and your ability to withstand discomfort. If their legs aren’t all that strong and you have a good pain/discomfort threshold, then you probably won’t tap. But if they have really strong legs and/or you don’t have a really high pain threshold, you will tap. I happen to know some men who have freakishly strong “scissor crushes” and would tap most people out there.
But isn’t that true for every single technique in existence? Seriously, since you are so adamantly arguing the efficacy of this tactic, why don’t you name for me one single technique that works 100% of the time, for 100% of practitioners, against 100% of opponents. You can’t because no such technique exists.
Once again, all I’m saying is that tapping people with this tactic is possible, that I know several people who have developed it to a very high degree and who would submit the vast majority of opponent’s they might face with it. That’s all.
Good training,
Sentoguy