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581

I’ve been having good success with this FT and DS stuff you wrote the other day, thanks

DOES THIS LOOK ABOUT RIGHT FOR THE FT AND DS?:
ANY CHANGES?

standing barbell overhead press:
feel set: 75x3
feel set: 75x3
work set: 85x3(3 FT)
work set: 85x3(2 deadstop, 1 FT)
work set: 85x3(1 deadstop, 2 FT)
work set: 95x3(3 FT)
work set: 95x3(2 deadstop, 1 FT)
work set: 95x3(3 FT)(felt way stronger than first 3 with 95)
work set: did the same with 105
work set: 115x2(2 FT)
work set: 115x2(1 DS, 1 FT)(PEAK OF FORCE)(PERSONAL RECORD)
work set: 115x1(1 DS)(felt strong)
work set: 115x1(1 FT)(felt strong)(this was my max about a month or so ago)
1 did 2 sets of 3 overhand, full pull ups to stretch my shoulders after the work sets

582

also:
Should a seated dumbell overhead press feel like a behind the neck press?(although a bit more comfortable?

583

Coach,

If one has time to do AM/PM sessions on shoulders days (Phase 1, IBB), how should one devide the volume?

Thanks!

584

Thibs,

Today my max attempt with 345 was hideous

*Lift starts around 55 seconds

My lower back rounded like a sacred cat, it seems like once my deadlift goes beyond 85% my lower back keeps rounding. How do I remedy this?

Thank you

585

[quote]Mondy wrote:
Thibs,

Today my max attempt with 345 was hideous

*Lift starts around 55 seconds

My lower back rounded like a sacred cat, it seems like once my deadlift goes beyond 85% my lower back keeps rounding. How do I remedy this?

Thank you[/quote]

Before Thibs answers this, I will throw in my 2 cents. I suffered a back injury last year from a squat accident and after rehab and retraining I feel somewhat qualified on the subject of how to squat and deadlift safely. After all, there is no way i would be very close to matching my old PRs if I didn’t know these things.

  1. You have a long-ish torso which automatically means your low back has more torque to deal with. Be extra careful when using a conventional stance.
  2. You are in a rush to pull the bar up. Your hips are shooting up without the bar coming off the floor for a second. Result: Back has more work to do.
  3. You are in cervical extension. I forget the neuroscience mumbo jumbo behind it, which has been posted here, but basically cervical extension has an inhibitory effect on the back extensors. Bad and dangerous.

Even though you may have to sacrifice some weight to do so, take the time to ensure that everything is as tight as possible, especially your so-called core and the glutes as well. The one exception is scapular retractors. Pulling the scaps back too hard can result in injury on the deadlift. Just leave them in normal position. They will get pulled forward some by the weight but that is okay.
Look up with your eyes, not your neck, and squeeze the bar off the floor. Do not “rip.” It may help to think about pushing the floor rather than lifting the bar.

Do your "core’ work that we all hate to do and skip too much. I have found bent-over barbell rows and halting deadlifts (deadlifts that only go up to the knee) to be effective in improving extensor strength and strength-endurance for a deadlift. After all, rounding usually happens at the bottom half of the deadlift where the extensors are under the most torque, and those two exercises mimic that position. Doing a lot of haltings will force all of your attention on the bottom half of the lift, which is where things usually go wrong, and force you to master it.

Last but not least, just because you can lift it doesn’t mean you should. Don’t take “max attempt” too literally. Form will always break down under extreme loading. When maxing out, it is better to think of improving upon what you did the last time you maxed rather than to try to lift a true max.

Hope this helps.

586

[quote]Ben.K wrote:

[quote]Mondy wrote:
Thibs,

Today my max attempt with 345 was hideous

*Lift starts around 55 seconds

My lower back rounded like a sacred cat, it seems like once my deadlift goes beyond 85% my lower back keeps rounding. How do I remedy this?

Thank you[/quote]

Before Thibs answers this, I will throw in my 2 cents. I suffered a back injury last year from a squat accident and after rehab and retraining I feel somewhat qualified on the subject of how to squat and deadlift safely. After all, there is no way i would be very close to matching my old PRs if I didn’t know these things.

  1. You have a long-ish torso which automatically means your low back has more torque to deal with. Be extra careful when using a conventional stance.
  2. You are in a rush to pull the bar up. Your hips are shooting up without the bar coming off the floor for a second. Result: Back has more work to do.
  3. You are in cervical extension. I forget the neuroscience mumbo jumbo behind it, which has been posted here, but basically cervical extension has an inhibitory effect on the back extensors. Bad and dangerous.

Even though you may have to sacrifice some weight to do so, take the time to ensure that everything is as tight as possible, especially your so-called core and the glutes as well. The one exception is scapular retractors. Pulling the scaps back too hard can result in injury on the deadlift. Just leave them in normal position. They will get pulled forward some by the weight but that is okay.
Look up with your eyes, not your neck, and squeeze the bar off the floor. Do not “rip.” It may help to think about pushing the floor rather than lifting the bar.

Do your "core’ work that we all hate to do and skip too much. I have found bent-over barbell rows and halting deadlifts (deadlifts that only go up to the knee) to be effective in improving extensor strength and strength-endurance for a deadlift. After all, rounding usually happens at the bottom half of the deadlift where the extensors are under the most torque, and those two exercises mimic that position. Doing a lot of haltings will force all of your attention on the bottom half of the lift, which is where things usually go wrong, and force you to master it.

Last but not least, just because you can lift it doesn’t mean you should. Don’t take “max attempt” too literally. Form will always break down under extreme loading. When maxing out, it is better to think of improving upon what you did the last time you maxed rather than to try to lift a true max.

Hope this helps.
[/quote]

Great post! Thibs approved

587

[quote]Quadforce wrote:
Coach,

If one has time to do AM/PM sessions on shoulders days (Phase 1, IBB), how should one devide the volume?

Thanks![/quote]

I’d repeat the morning workout with 15-20% less weight and 2 more reps per set (e.g. 5 reps instead of 3).

588

[quote]toots27mkc wrote:
also:
Should a seated dumbell overhead press feel like a behind the neck press?(although a bit more comfortable?[/quote]

Somewhat… it is midway between a front military press and a behind the neck military press. Basically the bells start in line with the ears and stay on the same line during the whole press.

589

[quote]toots27mkc wrote:
I’ve been having good success with this FT and DS stuff you wrote the other day, thanks

DOES THIS LOOK ABOUT RIGHT FOR THE FT AND DS?:
ANY CHANGES?

standing barbell overhead press:
feel set: 75x3
feel set: 75x3
work set: 85x3(3 FT)
work set: 85x3(2 deadstop, 1 FT)
work set: 85x3(1 deadstop, 2 FT)
work set: 95x3(3 FT)
work set: 95x3(2 deadstop, 1 FT)
work set: 95x3(3 FT)(felt way stronger than first 3 with 95)
work set: did the same with 105
work set: 115x2(2 FT)
work set: 115x2(1 DS, 1 FT)(PEAK OF FORCE)(PERSONAL RECORD)
work set: 115x1(1 DS)(felt strong)
work set: 115x1(1 FT)(felt strong)(this was my max about a month or so ago)
1 did 2 sets of 3 overhand, full pull ups to stretch my shoulders after the work sets[/quote]

Looks very good indeed. I’m touched that someone of your caliber is giving this a good honest shot!

590

[quote]BBriere wrote:
Coach,

Could eccentrics or supramaximal holds fit into this type of program? Maybe after you ramp up to your daily max force taking 110-120% of your 1RM and either lowering it or holding it short of lockout then after a short rest trying a new max force set with about 5-10 pounds more than the last. Please let me know what you think.[/quote]

Funny you should ask; I’m currently playing with eccentrics and how to optimally add them to the program, or to the approach in general. I’m a big believer in using weight releasers in my training, always had fast strength gains with them, but also boink fast (after 2-3 weeks). So I was probably not using them optimally.

Here is an actual email I sent to Tim Patterson regarding my experimentation with eccentrics and weight releasers.

''My current idea is to do a regular eccentric tempo with the releasers… the added weight will simply have a psychological effect (getting you used to holding bigger weights) and increase the force level at the turnaround point (by increasing kinetic energy accumulation during the eccentric).

I also want to use the releasers for only 1 set out of 5… so once during a ramp. I’m still debating whether to use it on the first set of ramp (to increase HTMU activation for the rest of the sets) or on the last set of the ramp.

However I also have another theory… the neural fatigue might have been from the supramaximal aspect of the eccentrics (I would actually handle 105-115% on the eccentric). I am toying with the idea of using the releasers on every set of a ramp BUT keeping the eccentric load stable as I ramp up the weight from set to set. This means lowering the weight on the releasers as I add weight to the bar… obviously keeping the same lifting form and speed as a normal ramp lift.

Something like… assuming that I will reach a top bar weight of 320lbs on my ramp, it would look like:

160lbs bar weight + 160lbs on releasers (80lbs per side) x 3 reps
200lbs bar weight + 120lbs on releasers (60lbs per side) x 3 reps
240lbs bar weight + 80lbs on releasers (40lbs per side) x 3 reps
280lbs bar weight + 40lbs on releasers (20lbs per side) x 3 reps
300lbs bar weight + 20lbs on releasers (10lbs per side… releasers only) x 3 reps
320lbs x 3 reps’’

591

[quote]workhorse34 wrote:
CT

does the mfp and mlp still appy to explosive exercises such as the power clean. because even working
with 95% you are still lifting the weight explosively. and how would this apply to the training scheme.

note: i did try it with the ramping techinique just going up to about 80-85% and it felt amazing. during my last sets the bar speed was insane and was moving just as fast as the weight on the sets i was starting out with. it felt great to move that weight with such speed and force. just wondering if i should keep it the same or go up to higher percentages. [/quote]

Good question. The OL are a different animal. As you mentionned, since these lifts are explosive by nature, they can’t really be done in a grinding style. Provided that a lifter has mastered the OL form, any lift that is completed will be somewhat explosive. So in that regard, the MFP and MLP would be the same for these lifts.

Which is why I prefer to use the heaviest weight where form and timing is still perfect and crisp as the ‘‘MFP’’ and the most weight you can complete the lift with as the ‘‘MPP’’.

Beginners will have a wider range between the two whereas advanced lifters who are very efficient in the OLs will have a smaller gap (which respects the MFP vs. MPP ratio).

592

[quote]Ben.K wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]Ben.K wrote:
CT,

I train like a powerlifter and lift raw only. My setup is upper/lower split with 2 days being rep work (eg 5x5 - just a guideline, not set in stone) and two being intensity days (rep maxes or heavy singles/doubles/triples)

  1. my impression is IBB, the perfect rep, and all the other stuff you will be introducing later are primarily for bodybuilders (hypertrophy emphasis). Is there a way to adapt this to pure strength training? One consideration is the max effort method many powerlifters use. Can this be used in conjunction with the methods you are currently working on? Do you think ME work is an outdated/inferior method?

  2. I never made much progress while I used dynamic effort workouts, as popularized by Westside. Any idea why? What has been your experience with trainees who are non-responders to DE work?

  3. I am unclear what your position on “rep style” is for assistance exercises. Do you still prefer to do them many sets/low reps and stop when they get slow or is it fine to do say 2x10? What about exercises you can’t really do heavy like face pulls?
    To take today’s workout as an example, I did low-incline DB presses for 40 total reps. Most of my sets were 8-10 reps. Would you have preferred to do something like 10x4 with 40-60 seconds rest between sets?

Note on question 2. I do realize working up to the max force point is actually (unconventional) “speed work” (it’s the heaviest you can still accelerate, right) and this will usually be heavier than the percentages normally used in DE work (60% is common). Perhaps DE non-responders will make progress with MFP work, which I guess can be thought of as “heavy speed work.” It’s also way more volume than traditional speed work due to the greater load - I do believe total volume is important.

Thanks for your time.[/quote]

  1. Actually, IBB mostly utilizes the training concepts I learned from my years as an olympic lifter and training with powerlifters. I PERSONALLY believe that the methods that will help you gain the most strength will also make you gain the most muscle.

BTW, IBB is just ONE program. And it is the least advanced of those we will put out. Each program is only meant to put a series of training concepts into an application. The important thing is NOT the program, but the concepts. What we do is introduce those concepts then publish a workout applying them. This time around the concepts are ‘the perfect rep’, ‘max force-autoregulation’ and ‘deadstop reps’. So the program will mostly use those.

Once these concepts are mastered we will move on to more advanced ideas.

  1. There is no such thing as trainees who don’t respond to dynamic work. However not all trainees require the same type of dynamic work. While an advanced lifter might benefit from work in the 40-50% range, an intermediate one will probably need a higher percentage for the technique to work.

  2. I normally keep my reps below 6 (up to 5 is fine) although some of my clients go up to 8 on some isolation exercises. The least complex a movement is, the more reps you can do.

[/quote]

Thanks for the response. I’m still scratching my head over my lack of progress on speed work When I ditched DE in favor of reps, I started seeing gains again in both strength and mass. My guesses on why speed work didn’t work for me (or rather, how I was using it wrong):

  1. My weights were too light
  2. I was too skinny (5’10 and 160 - now 170) I have heard the idea that skinny guys don’t respond well to DE work since they don’t have much muscle mass to train and make explosive
  3. Not enough volume. Doing a DE workout and then following that with heavier reps work might have worked. But I just did DE and then some assistance work.

I think I understand the concepts so far but it seems difficult to track progress with this style of training. It seems there will often not be more weight or more total reps. [/quote]

Points 1 and 2 are probably the joint cause. As I mentionned, beginners or those with a less efficient nervous system need to use more weight to get the benefits of speed-type work (see my post about the 3 important loading points).

Point 2 is also important… muscle mass is the foundation on which strength is built one and strength is the foundation on which power (speed-strength) is built on. Those who lack muscle mass while thus have such a lower power potential that speed work with a light load might not lead to optimal results.

593

hey Thib,

what is the point in doing speed deadlifts? There is no angle Q like the squat or bench so it seems kind of wasteful to do them.

594

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]BBriere wrote:
Coach,

Could eccentrics or supramaximal holds fit into this type of program? Maybe after you ramp up to your daily max force taking 110-120% of your 1RM and either lowering it or holding it short of lockout then after a short rest trying a new max force set with about 5-10 pounds more than the last. Please let me know what you think.[/quote]

Funny you should ask; I’m currently playing with eccentrics and how to optimally add them to the program, or to the approach in general. I’m a big believer in using weight releasers in my training, always had fast strength gains with them, but also boink fast (after 2-3 weeks). So I was probably not using them optimally.

Here is an actual email I sent to Tim Patterson regarding my experimentation with eccentrics and weight releasers.

''My current idea is to do a regular eccentric tempo with the releasers… the added weight will simply have a psychological effect (getting you used to holding bigger weights) and increase the force level at the turnaround point (by increasing kinetic energy accumulation during the eccentric).

I also want to use the releasers for only 1 set out of 5… so once during a ramp. I’m still debating whether to use it on the first set of ramp (to increase HTMU activation for the rest of the sets) or on the last set of the ramp.

However I also have another theory… the neural fatigue might have been from the supramaximal aspect of the eccentrics (I would actually handle 105-115% on the eccentric). I am toying with the idea of using the releasers on every set of a ramp BUT keeping the eccentric load stable as I ramp up the weight from set to set. This means lowering the weight on the releasers as I add weight to the bar… obviously keeping the same lifting form and speed as a normal ramp lift.

Something like… assuming that I will reach a top bar weight of 320lbs on my ramp, it would look like:

160lbs bar weight + 160lbs on releasers (80lbs per side) x 3 reps
200lbs bar weight + 120lbs on releasers (60lbs per side) x 3 reps
240lbs bar weight + 80lbs on releasers (40lbs per side) x 3 reps
280lbs bar weight + 40lbs on releasers (20lbs per side) x 3 reps
300lbs bar weight + 20lbs on releasers (10lbs per side… releasers only) x 3 reps
320lbs x 3 reps’’
[/quote]

Ok, thanks. I figure there is no better form of science than experimentation so I might just give it a try and see. I figure that one eccentric or supramaximal hold per body part per workout can’t induce too much fatigue. I’ve just had total disaster with trying routines of doing multiple sets of them during one workout (i.e. Waterbury’s Total Strength Program), but it may have been due to other factors as well.

595

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

Point 2 is also important… muscle mass is the foundation on which strength is built one and strength is the foundation on which power (speed-strength) is built on. Those who lack muscle mass while thus have such a lower power potential that speed work with a light load might not lead to optimal results.[/quote]

What about lightweight powerlifters/olympic lifters that handle big weights? Not only the champions, but solid amateur lifters that compete and show good numbers? Are they the genetic minority and most of the small guys will probably be limited in strength by their muscle mass even if they train the CNS for years ?

596

[quote]Thy. wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

Point 2 is also important… muscle mass is the foundation on which strength is built one and strength is the foundation on which power (speed-strength) is built on. Those who lack muscle mass while thus have such a lower power potential that speed work with a light load might not lead to optimal results.[/quote]

What about lightweight powerlifters/olympic lifters that handle big weights? Not only the champions, but solid amateur lifters that compete and show good numbers? Are they the genetic minority and most of the small guys will probably be limited in strength by their muscle mass even if they train the CNS for years ?[/quote]

Even though they are of a light body weight, they generally have a fairly high amount of muscle mass. Understand that they often drop a lot of water weight to make their weight class. So even though the might weigh-in at 69kg (for example) in reality they might be 75kg or more … it is not unusual to drop 7 or even 10kg before a contest to make weight. This is dropped only by manipulating water weight. The are already very lean (the lighter weight class guys are normally at around 8% or even less).

And in the lighter weight classes, guys are normally short. Here is a table from Soviet texts regarding the ideal weight for each weight class… keep in mind that those are the old weigh classes, but they are still close to the current ones:

52kg = 4’9" to 4’11"
56kg = 4’11" to 5’0"
60kg = 5’0" to 5’1"
67kg = 5’2" to 5’4"
75kg = 5’4" to 5’6"
82kg = 5’5" to 5’7"
90kg = 5’7" to 5’8"
100kg = 5’8" to 5’10"
110kg = 5’9" to 5’11"
110+ = 5’11" +

So take a guy in the 67kg class (148lbs)… in reality he is probably 75kg (165lbs) at 8% body fat on on 5’3" or so. Normally we count around 5-7lbs per inch of weight. So this guy, has the same relative muscle mass as a 5’10" guy who is 200 - 210lbs at 8% body fat.

597

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]Thy. wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

Point 2 is also important… muscle mass is the foundation on which strength is built one and strength is the foundation on which power (speed-strength) is built on. Those who lack muscle mass while thus have such a lower power potential that speed work with a light load might not lead to optimal results.[/quote]

What about lightweight powerlifters/olympic lifters that handle big weights? Not only the champions, but solid amateur lifters that compete and show good numbers? Are they the genetic minority and most of the small guys will probably be limited in strength by their muscle mass even if they train the CNS for years ?[/quote]

Even though they are of a light body weight, they generally have a fairly high amount of muscle mass. Understand that they often drop a lot of water weight to make their weight class. So even though the might weigh-in at 69kg (for example) in reality they might be 75kg or more … it is not unusual to drop 7 or even 10kg before a contest to make weight. This is dropped only by manipulating water weight. The are already very lean (the lighter weight class guys are normally at around 8% or even less).

And in the lighter weight classes, guys are normally short. Here is a table from Soviet texts regarding the ideal weight for each weight class… keep in mind that those are the old weigh classes, but they are still close to the current ones:

52kg = 4’9" to 4’11"
56kg = 4’11" to 5’0"
60kg = 5’0" to 5’1"
67kg = 5’2" to 5’4"
75kg = 5’4" to 5’6"
82kg = 5’5" to 5’7"
90kg = 5’7" to 5’8"
100kg = 5’8" to 5’10"
110kg = 5’9" to 5’11"
110+ = 5’11" +

So take a guy in the 67kg class (148lbs)… in reality he is probably 75kg (165lbs) at 8% body fat on on 5’3" or so. Normally we count around 5-7lbs per inch of weight. So this guy, has the same relative muscle mass as a 5’10" guy who is 200 - 210lbs at 8% body fat.[/quote]

Thanks for the info.

I have a question about the contrast FT/DS double ramping. What is the expected load to be reached?

Paused reps take a lot out of me, so I can’t go as far as with regular FT ramping.

For example, I did sets of 2 starting from 50%, ramping with 5kg. I was only able to reach around 80-82% (not sure of my current 1RM), and on that last set I was forced to do the second (last) rep without DS. That was my MFP. Without DS reps, I can usually get to 87-90% (MFP).

I did DS reps with 3 second pause on the chest.

598

Hey coach!First of all,i have to admit that i really admire your work!!!
Secondly i have a question for you.What program would you suggest to a basketball player trying to increase his vertical jump???

599

Coach, after a short cutting cycle I have reached and short term goal I had set. I am 5’10.5, 180 lbs at single digit body fat. However, like most I would love to gain another 10-15 lbs of muscle. Problem is I do not handle carbs (starches) that well. Once I start getting over 100g I start to have stomach issues.

My question is what would be a good way “diet wise” to put on muscle while keeping fat away on a low carb diet. Keeping carbs around training only? I know that it will most likely take longer but, I could really use some insight.

Training wise I am planning on training 4-5 times a week hitting each muscle 2x a week. I will be implementing your new views on perfect and low reps. After sticking to higher rep ranges I think this will be just what I need.

Thanks in advance

600

[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:
Coach, after a short cutting cycle I have reached and short term goal I had set. I am 5’10.5, 180 lbs at single digit body fat. However, like most I would love to gain another 10-15 lbs of muscle. Problem is I do not handle carbs (starches) that well. Once I start getting over 100g I start to have stomach issues.

My question is what would be a good way “diet wise” to put on muscle while keeping fat away on a low carb diet. Keeping carbs around training only? I know that it will most likely take longer but, I could really use some insight.

Training wise I am planning on training 4-5 times a week hitting each muscle 2x a week. I will be implementing your new views on perfect and low reps. After sticking to higher rep ranges I think this will be just what I need.

Thanks in advance[/quote]

Yes, keep carbs right before training. Start at around 75g and gradually work your way up over the weeks. Add something like 25g per day each week until you find the point where you are starting to add fat. When you find that point, back down slightly.

For example:

Week 1: 75g pre-training
Week 2: 100g pre-training
Week 3: 125g pre-training
Week 4: 150g pre-training (starting to have some bloat)
Week 5: 125-140g pre-training