New Bankruptcy Law

[quote]Professor X wrote:
How old are you?
[/quote]

  1. Why? Surely not to imply that I’m just young and idealistic.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

I only asked because I thought it was common knowledge that this money would be insured. If someone, after pleading bankruptcy, years later calls whatever company they owed money to and says, “hey, I have that 50 bucks now” to the girl answering phones, I am sure he will be told that the situation has been resolved.
[/quote]

Oh, glad you cleared that up. So you’re not saying it is alright to steal from the credit card companies, but it is alright to steal from the insurane company.

Understand that at one point I saw nothing wrong with running up debt and just waiting for it to drop off my credit report. I do honestly have a 420 FICO score. Everything changed when I got married at 27. Soon I had an infant son and a 5 year old step-daughter. It’s hard to try and teach your kids right and wrong while you know you have things that are eating away your credibility from the inside. Sure, they would never know what my financial situation was, but I did. It’s hard to look your kids in the eye and tell them not to lie, to keep their word, to honor their promises and not feel a pain in your chest when you know you are doing wrong.

I don’t mean to imply that I have more morals than you, just because you don’t have children. I’m just explaining where my sense of right and wrong comes from.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
Just out of curiousity, Zeb and Rainjack, what are your positions on legalized gambling or legalized drugs?

I think gambling is a better analogy here, but if you think about it I think both of those are analogous, at least with respect to arguments about protecting consumers from themselves.[/quote]

I know you didn’t address these questions to me, but I’ll answer anyway. I’m fairly libertarian… I say that gambling and drugs should (in general) not be outlawed. If we determine that a drug is so horrible that it would cause a person to pose a real threat to society (think “cutting up babies”), i.e., a psychotic agent, then that would be a valid drug for the government to outlaw. In that case, the interest of society would trump the individual’s interest wrt self-regulation. For gambling, I believe that there should be controls on the gambling industry, but that gambling should be legal.

In fact, drugs and gambling are two of the best topics on which to base a strong argument AGAINST government regulation, or at least the overreaching kind of regulation we’ve seen to date. Gambling and drug laws CREATED organized crime and have given us many more evils than they’ve alleviated.

[quote]Soco wrote:
Credit card companies expressly target those with little financial knowldege in the hopes that htey will get them trapped into a cycle of spiraling debt. I would find this law acceptable if they would have also put more protections in against targeting college age consumers and also limitations on excessive hidden charges.

[/quote]

I got a rejection letter from a credit card company a little while ago. Knowing full well I never applied for it, I asked them what the hell happened. Apparently, as I was applying for a student loan online, a popup opened that I immediately closed. This constituted applying for a credit card. Now this may be off topic a little, but it’s complete bullshit. My credit has taken a hit for closing a fucking popup. That is an example of devious practices.

While I’m at it, some lady did a social experiment where she quit her job, sold her house, and started her life over in the lower class. She wrote a book about it, and it detailed despite how hard she tried, she couldn’t advance herself. Anyone heard of it? BostonBarrister?

[quote]rainjack wrote:
I’ve been an accountant in private practice for 6 years. The bulk of my business is tax work for farmers, small business owners, and individuals. [/quote]

You work with farmers and don’t see the potential need for some people to claim bankruptcy?

[quote]Professor X wrote:
You work with farmers and don’t see the potential need for some people to claim bankruptcy?[/quote]

I’ve been in business for 6 years, and I’ve recieved 7 letters. None were from farmers. All of them were from individuals. I’ve had several farmers that have filed for bankruptcy. amd only one of those filed for restructuring. The rest of them filed for debt forgiveness - which means they just walk away from their debt and start over.

I don’t have a problem with someone filing for a restructuring of their debt. At least they are trying to pay back their debts. The bankruptcies I think are criminal are those in which debt is cancelled - written off.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
Just out of curiousity, Zeb and Rainjack, what are your positions on legalized gambling or legalized drugs?

I think gambling is a better analogy here, but if you think about it I think both of those are analogous, at least with respect to arguments about protecting consumers from themselves.[/quote]

Start a different thread on those topics and I’ll tell you. I don’t want to get in trouble with the “pure thread police.” :slight_smile:

[quote]veruvius wrote:
While I’m at it, some lady did a social experiment where she quit her job, sold her house, and started her life over in the lower class. She wrote a book about it, and it detailed despite how hard she tried, she couldn’t advance herself. Anyone heard of it? BostonBarrister?[/quote]

“Nickled and Dimed: On Not Getting By in America.” I disagree with her experimental methods (artificial constraints) and her conclusions. And her obvious bias going into the experiment.

Who feels sorry for the loanshark?

Who feels sorry for the fool that borrows from a loanshark and gets his legs broken because he can’t pay his debt?

It is hard to sympathize with credit card companies that have criminally high interest rates or the fools that use the cards to spend money they don’t have.

I don’t know if the new bankruptcy law will help, but I do know the current laws are screwed up.

If a billionaire like Donald Trump can declare bankruptcy again it is time for a change. He should have his head shaved and be dragged through the streets.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
My opposition to legalized gambling has very little to do with protecting the consumer from himself. I just happen to think that it is a pretty low-class way for a government to make money.

On the whole, I think government should get out of the ‘protect the consumers from themselves’ business. Personal responsibility shouldn’t come at a premium - it should be expected.

The government wants to protect us from ourselves, and I just don’t see how that truly helps anyone out. It rewards the irresponsible for acting the way they do, and punishes those who play by the rules.

[/quote]

I generally agree, though when something becomes an obvious problem I think there is room for action. In this case, I think the action should be regulation of the adverstisements of credit-card companies – along with making the companies liable, rather than the consumer, in cases of ID fraud with those ridiculous pre-approved checks and credit cards.

[quote]nephorm wrote:

I know you didn’t address these questions to me, but I’ll answer anyway. I’m fairly libertarian… I say that gambling and drugs should (in general) not be outlawed. If we determine that a drug is so horrible that it would cause a person to pose a real threat to society (think “cutting up babies”), i.e., a psychotic agent, then that would be a valid drug for the government to outlaw. In that case, the interest of society would trump the individual’s interest wrt self-regulation. For gambling, I believe that there should be controls on the gambling industry, but that gambling should be legal.

In fact, drugs and gambling are two of the best topics on which to base a strong argument AGAINST government regulation, or at least the overreaching kind of regulation we’ve seen to date. Gambling and drug laws CREATED organized crime and have given us many more evils than they’ve alleviated.
[/quote]

I think this is right, though in both cases I see the best solution as regulated legalization, i.e. restrictions to access as opposed to disallowing access completely.

Very interesting take from Jane Galt, with which I mostly agree:

You asked for it

A number of y’all have emailed me asking what I think about the bankruptcy reform that is currently wending its way through congress. Contrary to what you might think, opinions on bankruptcy reform aren’t unifrom across conservatives and libertarians. Instapundit, for example, is disgusted by the lending practices of big credit card banks like CapitalOne, lending money to people who have a high probability of getting into trouble. On the other hand, Volokh conspirator Todd Zywicki is for it, and if you’re at all interested in the topic, his posts on bankruptcy are a must read:

Bankruptcy and attorney advertising ( http://volokh.com/posts/1108644319.shtml)

Bankrupcty and credit cards ( http://volokh.com/posts/1108490249.shtml  )

Bankruptcy and medical expenses ( http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2005_02_13-2005_02_19.shtml#1108558247 )

Bankruptcy and the non-dischargeability of abortion-related torts ( http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2005_01_30-2005_02_05.shtml#1107201680 )

On recent changes in the bankrupcty environment

On systemic abuse of bankruptcy ( http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2005_02_06-2005_02_12.shtml#1108133869 )

Mr Zywicki basically argues that the system is broken, increasingly characterised by strategic abuses that shield assets from creditors, or run up debts the borrower has no intention of paying, and that bankruptcy reform is a necessary fix.

Josh Marshall has a special blog about it ( http://talkingpointsmemo.com/bankruptcy/ ), starring Elizabeth Warren, probably our nation’s most high-profile bankruptcy attorney. Ms Warren & co-bloggers take the opposite view, arguing that most bankruptcy is caused not by people who are willing to be deadbeats, but nice, ordinary law-abiding citizens caught in a trap:

[i] The story of bankruptcy today is the story of modern America. As tough as it is for many to accept, Americans are not in a frenzy of overconsumption. The research of Professor Warren and others has revealed that we actually spend less on non-necessities, thanks to falling prices for clothing, restaurant dining, and other purchases. Americans today have less disposable income than they had a generation ago, as more of our income is spent on housing, health care, and transportation.

Americans spend more money on their homes than a generation ago because house-shopping for families is as much about the school district as it is about the home itself. Our failure to provide equal access to quality schools has produced a bidding war between middle class families for homes in good school districts, which in turn results in working families buying more expensive houses than their incomes would have allowed a generation ago. In turn, as families move away from cities in search for better school districts, they end up spending more on their car and gasoline.

We all know about the state of health care costs in this country. Insurance has become more costly and out-of-pocket expenses great as more people join plans with coverage gaps. Too often, families in medical emergency are forced to start paying medical bills with credit cards just to pay for necessary procedures. We have already noted that over half of bankruptcies are due to medical emergency, and when combined with job loss, death, and divorce, the proportion of bankruptcies due to emergency rises to nearly 90 percent.

In short, people are being driven into bankruptcy at the rate of 1.5 million a year because, already financially squeezed by rising home, health car, and car costs, unforeseen emergency pushes them over the precipice. This is a compelling story, and one that Democrats like Joe Biden, Tom Carper, Mary Landrieu, and Ben Nelson ignore at their peril. The grass roots of the party proved more tolerant of such cynicism in the past, but if the contributions of MBNA, American Express, and others continue to be valued above the welfare of working families, they may discover that this formula for victory has a short shelf life. [/i]

What do I think?

Well, I think that the TPM explanation is not very convincing. Don’t get me wrong, I think Ms Warren is a great populariser of the bankruptcy issue, and her book, The Two Income Trap ( http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0465090826/livefromthewt-20?creative=327641&camp=14573&link_code=as1 ), should be in the library of anyone who’s interested in the problem of bankruptcy. I think that Ms Warren has identified a real phenomenon: two income couples, rather than reaping all the benefits of the wife’s additional income, have increasingly found themselves in a bidding war with other couples with children for a limited number of houses near good schools. This has sucked up a great deal of the second income. Moreover, a one income family used to have a sort of safety net in the form of Mom, who could drop housework to become a nursemaid, emergency aid worker, or temporary wage earner. This cushioned the family downturns. Now, when a two-income family is spending up to the limits of the two salaries (and as mentioned above, they have to to make sure junior gets a decent education), they have much less flexibility if there is a sudden illness in the family, a problem with one of the children, or a job loss.

But I don’t believe that that is, as Ms Warren and co-bloggers imply, all or even most of the story. She routinely vastly inflates her statistics in order to paint a picture of ordinary families increasingly squeezed by circumstances beyond their control. To take just one example, she claims in her book that housing consumtion hasn’t increased very much in the last few decades: by less than 1 room per house. But that’s a pretty big increase, when the starting average was near 5 rooms. Moreover, she fails to note that household size has dropped precipitously, from an average of 3.35 persons per household in 1960 to 2.57 per house hold in 2003. If housing has gone from an average of 5.2 rooms to an average of 5.9 (I’m dredging thse latter numbers up from memory), that represents an increase of almost a full room per person. That’s a lot of extra housing consumption.

Her academic work has the same sort of sizeable omissions that bias the results. She’s the author of the recently famous study showing that 50% of all bankruptcies were caused by medical bills. You should read the Zywicki post I linked above, but to summarise here, this “finding” was generated by attributing any bankruptcy in which the filer had more than $1,000 in out-of-pocket expenses in the last 12 months to medical bills. That’s ridiculously lax, and indeed, only 28% of the respondants attributed their trouble to medical problems. Given that medical bills are by far the most attractive reason to claim for your bankruptcy (compared to other major causes like divorce, compulsive gambling, and total financial irresponsibility), it seems unlikely that there’s a special “hidden” kind of medical bankruptcy so subtle that the people filing don’t realise that medical woes were the source of their problems. Furthermore, the study seems to have implied that medical bills were the main problem, when loss of income due to illness plays at least as great a role.

Finally, while I have some sympathy for the fact that it costs a lot of extra money, in childcare fees and extra clothes, advocates of this idea stretch it way too far. A second car gets used for things other than commuting, as do many of the extra clothes. Restaurant meals are a choice, not a necessity . . . my mother raised two kids in a small apartment without them, while working full time. And liberal bankruptcy advocates tend to gloss over the fact that one of the very top causes of bankruptcy is divorce–and no scheme enacted is going to make it as easy to support two households as one on the same income.

Now, what about those credit card companies?

Well, they’re evil.

They make half their income by surprising people with enormous penalties and usurious interest rate changes if they forget to pay their phone bill one month. Their most lucrative clients are the ones who have borrowed too much, who are paying hefty interest charges every month but never see much downward movement in the balance. Some of their tactics would make a loan shark blush. A credit card company is a finely-tuned system for relieving the ignorant or unlucky of every last penny they own without even taking the manly risk of holding them up at gunpoint.

On the other hand, I am deeply uncomfortable with the notion that poor people would somehow be better off without access to credit. Most bankruptcy tales of woe start off with a catastrophe; the credit card debt enters the picture as people use their credit lines to try to patch a gaping hole that has opened up in their cash flow. Would someone who needs a cash advance to make the rent really be better off without that credit card, so he can’t “get himself in over his head?”

I know how easy it is to do it. I graduated from business school with nearly $100K of student loans, and a nice chunk of change on my credit cards that was supposed to be paid off with the lucrative consulting job that strung me along and finally dumped me without ever starting work. (This happened to my entire associate class, not just me, she pointed out defensively; I was not being singled out). For a couple of years after graduation, my whole life was nothing but massive debt payments, as I lived with my parents and shoved every spare dime I had into getting that debt down. This is not a period of my life that I remember fondly, and I am deeply sympathetic to people who find themselves in a tough spot. But I also know that I was at least in part the architect of my own fate. B-school students, with their high income expectations, live very well on borrowed money; I could have taken fewer trips, gone without a car, and in other ways cut down my debt load considerably. Why should my creditors be the ones to pay the price for my folly?

(I know, I know–student loans aren’t dischargeable in bankruptcy. I’m making a general point.)

Moreover, there’s ample evidence that a sizeable percentage of bankruptcy filers engage in quite a lot of strategic behavior in the run-up to bankruptcy. Indeed, Ms Warren encourages it, telling people to run up unsecured debts while paying the mortgage. (This is very good advice). And it’s hard to argue that people with, say, gambling problems or a drug addiction, are somehow “victims” going into bankruptcy.

So where does that leave us? The credit card companies are evil, but many of the people declaring bankruptcy aren’t exactly paragons of virtue. On whose side am I?

Neither, really. I don’t buy the legend of blameless bankrpts, but I have no interest in helping credit card companies change the law so they can squeeze that last elusive drop of blood from their victims. I’m against the bankruptcy reform not because I think that one side or the other is getting shafted, but because I think that easy bankruptcy is one of the great unrecognized strengths of the American economic system. Easy bankruptcy is what frees people to be entrepreneurs, to take risks without fearing that one wrong move will destroy them forever.

I understand that bankruptcy reformers think that they can target the deadbeats without touching the merely excessively daring, but I’m not so sure. And while the abuses of the system may be morally outrageous, I don’t see that they’re particularly damaging. Capital One and its ilk seem to be getting along pretty well without our help. I’d be happy to leave it that way.

On the other hand, here are two essays by Professor and former FTC lawyer Todd Zywicki in favor of the proposals. As I said, I’m not against reform – I just think it should address credit-card company practices as well as consumer problems.

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/zywicki200503150744.asp

March 15, 2005, 7:44 a.m.
Bankrupt Criticisms
The bankruptcy bill deserves to pass.

By Todd Zywicki

For eight years, Congress has attempted to enact comprehensive bankruptcy-reform legislation, but has been frustrated by extraneous issues and procedural difficulties. Last week, by a vote of 74-25, the United States Senate passed the legislation. It will now move to the House, where swift approval is expected (prior versions routinely garnered over 300 votes), and then to President George W. Bush, who has indicated that he will sign it. This overwhelming bipartisan support has not, however, kept the bill from attracting a great deal of criticism in the press and blogosphere, including criticism by many who usually do not agree with Paul Krugman. In fact, the criticisms are based on half truths, distortions, and fundamental misunderstandings about key aspects of the legislation.

The legislation addresses two problem areas of modern bankruptcy law: the consumer-bankruptcy crisis and the problem of small-business bankruptcies. The consumer-bankruptcy provisions have drawn most of the criticism, so I will focus on them.

Krugman writes ( http://www.thestate.com/mld/state/news/opinion/11086510.htm ), ?The bill would make it much harder for families in distress to write off their debts and make a fresh start. Instead, many debtors would find themselves on an endless treadmill of payments.? This is flatly incorrect.

The bill is designed to rein in the small minority of fradulent bankruptcy filers who are having an outsized effect on credit markets. It will not prevent any innocent, good-faith filers from filing bankruptcy and getting a discharge. It preserves the fresh start for those who need it.

The FBI estimates that roughly ten percent of bankruptcy filings have some amount of fraud in them, usually outright lying and concealment about the amount of assets and income that a debtor has to pay his creditors. To attack this problem, the bill creates new safeguards to make it easier to sniff out fraud. Debtors will have to file their tax returns with their bankruptcy petitions, and bankruptcy filings will be randomly audited. Last year there were 1.5 million consumer bankruptcies in America. If the FBI is right, in 150,000 of those cases bankrupts were just lying about their assets. A debtor who fails to disclose his boat, Porsche, Corvette, and Ford Excursion, and values his home at $120,000 less than he paid for it ? to mention one case investigated by the Department of Justice ? is not a ?family in distress? as most of us think of the phrase.

The bill cracks down on various abuses as well as on fraud. For instance, it eliminates a number of obstacles that currently interfere with the ability of divorced spouses to collect alimony and child support from a bankrupt father. Philip Strauss, formerly the principal attorney for the San Francisco Department of Child Support Services, calls these provisions in the bill a ??wish list? of amendments to the Bankruptcy Code aimed at facilitating support collection.? Almost all of the national public child-support collection organizations in this country, as Strauss notes, have endorsed the bill. Maybe deadbeat fathers who use the bankruptcy code to evade their responsibilities are the ?families in distress? that Krugman is worried about?

Maybe the critics are concerned about the portions of the bill that make it easier to detect and punish fraudulent ?bankruptcy mills? that steal people?s money? That increase penalties for such practices as ?advis[ing] debtors to use a false Social Security number? when filing bankruptcy? Or maybe they are upset that under the reforms, serial bankruptcy filers would now be able to file bankruptcy only once every 8 years, rather than only once every 6 years? Oh, the horror! To be allowed to file bankruptcy only once every 8 years! Is that really the second coming of debtors? prisons?

Finally, the bill imposes several important new safeguards to prevent abuse of the notorious homestead exemption. Bankruptcy filers are allowed to retain property that is considered necessary for a debtor to make a ?fresh start? in life after bankruptcy. In most states, this allows a bankrupt to collect some amount of accumulated equity in his home, car, retirement accounts, and the like. In some states, such as Texas, Florida, and several farm states, bankrupts are entitled to protect their entire homestead, regardless of amount. It has been reported that O. J. Simpson recently moved to Florida to avail himself of the state?s unlimited homestead exemption and thereby avoid seizure of his mansion to pay his multimillion-dollar civil judgment. Under current law, this is perfectly legal.

The bankruptcy-reform legislation tightens up this loophole. For example, it disallows the homestead exemption if the homestead was purchased with intent to defraud creditors, as in O.J.?s case. It also makes it harder to use the exemption to protect against judgments for securities fraud, thereby limiting the ability of those such as Florida resident and WorldCom executive Scott Sullivan to hide behind Florida?s homestead exemption to evade collection of judgments against them. Fortunately Simpson and Sullivan have Paul Krugman and others working to make sure that they will face no ?endless treadmill of payments? on their liabilities.

MEANS AND ENDS
The most important and controversial provision of the legislation is the ?means-testing? of chapter-7 bankruptcy relief. Under current law, a person filing bankruptcy has two options. The debtor can file in chapter 7, the ?liquidation? provision, which permits debtors to simply surrender all their assets and get a full discharge of unsecured debts a few months later. Or the debtor can file in chapter 13, under which he enters into a court-supervised repayment plan for a period of 3 to 5 years, during which he pays all of his ?disposable income? to pay off what he can of his unsecured debt. To calculate the debtor?s available ?disposable income,? a judge uses his own subjective preferences to determine the debtor?s allowed living expenses.

The means-testing provisions of the bill will bring some rationality to this system. Those who make above the state median income (adjusted for family size), and can repay a substantial portion of their debts without significant hardship, would be required to file in chapter 13. At the end of the chapter-13 plan, this high-income filer would still get a discharge, just as other bankruptcy filers do. There is no ?endless treadmill of payments,? just a requirement that high-income debtors repay what they can.

In determining whether the debtor can repay a substantial portion of his debts, the legislation makes allowances for a whole range of expenses right off the top. First, it creates a standardized slate of expenses based on the relevant family size and regional cost of living, for such things as clothing, food, transportation, etc., eliminating the subjective judicial navel-gazing of the current system. It then subtracts from your income all of the debtor?s actual payments on secured debts, such as a home mortgage, car loan, or the like. The debtor can subtract any actual expenses for health care for himself or a dependent, as well as payments for health insurance premiums. Finally, there is an allowance for children?s educational expenses. If after subtracting out all of these expenses, the debtor still can repay $10,000 or 25 percent of his debts over a 5-year period, then he would be presumed to have to file in chapter 13.

The debtor could rebut this presumption by showing ?special circumstances? that make it too much of a hardship to file in chapter 13, in which case the debtor would still be permitted to liquidate his debts in chapter 7.

So how many people would be affected by means-testing? The estimates are that some 7-11 percent of current bankruptcy filers would be affected by the means-testing provisions of the bill. Roughly 80 percent of bankruptcy filers earn below their state median income, and so will get tossed out of the means-test immediately. For that 80 percent ? roughly 1.2 million of the 1.5 million bankruptcy filers last year ? the means-test will be completely irrelevant. They will be permitted to file chapter-7 bankruptcy just as under the current system. Roughly half of the remaining 20 percent of filers won?t be able to repay enough of their debt to meet the repayment criteria, so they will be dropped out as well and be permitted to file just as today. So in the end, only the highest-income filers with the largest repayment capacity will be affected.

But by targeting the most serious abusers of the system, the reform legislation will have a major impact on the bankruptcy system. This 7-11 percent of filers, on average, would be able to pay 60-65 percent of their unsecured debt in bankruptcy, such as credit-card and medical debt.

COSTS AND BENEFITS
Some have observed that bankruptcy reforms may make it somewhat more expensive and difficult to file bankruptcy. That is likely true, but only marginally so, and it seems quite clear that the benefits of the reforms dramatically exceed the costs. Under current law, all debtors are already required to report their income, assets, and liabilities. So implementing the means-test does not require the debtor to report anything that isn?t required under current law. Having to file pay stubs and tax returns, too, seems like a modest imposition in light of the improved ability to detect fraud that the requirements will yield.

The bill will require debtors to try to avoid bankruptcy by seeking consumer-credit counseling before filing bankruptcy. This measure will help prevent unnecessary bankruptcy filings. It will also protect individuals from their own lawyers. In response to ubiquitous advertising by bankruptcy attorneys, many financially strapped debtors contact attorneys for advice about dealing with finances, only to find themselves stampeded into an unnecessary bankruptcy filing. (The lawyers get paid only if the client files bankruptcy.) A requirement to first attempt a voluntary repayment plan through consumer-credit counseling will provide a salutary check on the lawyers.

In an ideal world, the current ?honor system? approach to bankruptcy fraud would work, sparing honest filers these modest expenses. But if the honor system actually worked, we could also eliminate the IRS and all restrictions on welfare fraud. Any system to stop tax or welfare fraud will inevitably impose some costs on innocent people; so too with stopping bankruptcy fraud and abuse. The question is whether the improved safeguards are worth those costs. In this case, that test is met.

Fraud and abuse in the bankruptcy system have real victims. Those victims include the unsuspecting divorcee who is sandbagged by the bankruptcy system when she learns that her property settlement has been discharged. They include small businesses that are forced to raise prices, curtail services, or lay off workers to compensate for losses resulting from bankruptcy filings. They include hospitals that are unable to buy new equipment or hire another nurse because of unpaid bills discharged in bankruptcy. They include young and low-income workers who are unable to buy a car because, thanks to our out-of-control bankruptcy system, they can?t get a loan.

They include every American who is forced to pay more for credit, goods, and services, because others file bankruptcy and walk away from debts they could pay but choose not to. This is unfair. And unnecessary.

These bankruptcy filers are not representative of the vast bulk of individual debtors in the bankruptcy system. But there are people who file bankruptcy not as a result of financial hardship as conventionally understood, but merely as a convenience to maintain an extravagant lifestyle ? at the expense of the rest of us. As the number of bankruptcy filings continue to rise, so does the number of those abusing the system.

I can?t see any reason why I or anyone else should have to pay higher interest rates or get worse service at the doctor?s office in order to preserve the ?right? of some guy making $80,000 or $100,000 per year to walk away from debts that he could pay but does not want to. Yet that?s the way it is under current law. Those who are hurt the most are low-income and young borrowers who have the fewest credit options and can least afford to pay more for credit and goods because of the hidden ?bankruptcy tax.? For all you critics out there ? is there someplace where I can send you my part of the bill so that you can allow bankruptcy fraud and abuse to keep going unchecked?

? Todd Zywicki is a professor of law at George Mason University. He has testified before the House and Senate judiciary committees on bankruptcy reform.


http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/zywicki200503160744.asp

March 16, 2005, 7:44 a.m.
Credit Worthy
There are ?special interests? on both sides of the bankruptcy bill.

By Todd Zywicki

There are “special interests” on both sides of the bankruptcy bill.

Yesterday I wrote to defend a bankruptcy bill that has been unfairly maligned throughout the press and blogosphere. Today I’m concentrating on one specific attack: that the success of the bill shows that the credit-card industry and other creditors have bought the Congress. Keep in mind that almost three quarters of senators supported the bill ? all the Republicans and 40 percent of Democrats who voted. Have all of them sold out to a nefarious agenda?

A study by Princeton’s Stephen Nunez and Howard Rosenthal, using votes on the bill in 2001, concluded that perhaps 15 of the 306 House members who voted for the legislation then may have been swayed by campaign contributions from the consumer-credit industry ? or about five percent of the House’s 74-percent majority. Hardly enough to account for the consistent overwhelming support for the bill.

Support for the legislation is broad-based, including almost all Republicans and moderate Democrats. What is narrow is the opposition, which has come largely from two quarters. First, there are economic illiterates who believe that losses caused by bankruptcy fraud and abuse just come out of “banks’ profits” and are not passed along to other consumers in the form of higher costs for goods and services. Second, the most well-organized opposition has come from bankruptcy lawyers and those congressmen most beholden to lawyers. Straddling both categories are the most hard-left members of the Democratic party.

The interest of bankruptcy lawyers in defeating reform is clear. Fewer bankruptcy filings obviously mean less money for lawyers. But lawyers take some less obvious hits in the legislation. Under the bill, alimony and child-support obligations go from being seventh to first on the list of priorities for debtors. Guess what’s current priority number one? That’s right, attorneys’ fees ? which will now drop to second priority for payment.

In fact, the most vocal opponents of bankruptcy reform in the Senate last week reflect the influence of lawyers. Senator Charles Schumer, for instance, received over $2.5 million from lawyers during his last election. Senator Ted Kennedy, a vocal opponent of the legislation, received more money from lawyers than from any other group during his last campaign. Senator Dianne Feinstein also reports lawyers as one her largest contributors. And so on.

It’s worth noting that the committees with jurisdiction over bankruptcy reform are the House and Senate’s judiciary committees. Those committees are the traditional playground for lawyers, not bankers, which provides lawyers with a substantial leg up in lobbying efforts surrounding bankruptcy reform. (That is one reason why enactment of bipartisan bankruptcy reform legislation has taken eight years.) While the consumer credit industry certainly is a major player when it comes to lobbying, most of their contributions ? unsurprisingly ? are to members of the banking committees, which have jurisdiction over most regulations affecting the consumer credit industry.

A study by the American Bankruptcy Institute a few years ago, for instance, found that of the top 10 House recipients of consumer creditor PAC contributions, only one was even on the House Judiciary Committee. But he also served on the House Banking Committee, as did most of the others on the top-10 list. Similarly, most of the Senate’s largest recipients of campaign contributions were on the Senate Banking Committee, rather than the Senate Judiciary Committee. As noted above, a more rigorous test by Nunez and Rosenthal also fails to find a strong relationship between campaign contributions and votes on the bill.

The real story here is that for once Washington recognizes what others do not ? that bankruptcy reform is an issue of personal and moral responsibility. The current system mocks hard-working Americans who live within their means and live up to their financial responsibilities. We try to teach our children financial responsibility; yet, seemingly every time we turn on the television we learn of a new celebrity like Mike Tyson who has filed bankruptcy after living an extravagant lifestyle. Part of Harry Truman’s lore was his decision to voluntarily repay the debts of his haberdashery that failed in the wake of a recession. It took him 15 years to do so, but in the end he did it ? and was properly applauded for it. Today’s bankruptcy landscape is populated by too many Mike Tysons and not enough Harry Trumans.

With the bankruptcy bill, Republicans and New Democrats are rebalancing the system by targeting the worst forms of fraud and abuse in the system, while leaving honest bankruptcy filers unaffected. The bill rewards old-fashioned values of thrift and personal responsibility and ends the shameful subsidization of upper-class profligacy by those who are forced to pick up the bill. It is a much-needed, and long-awaited reform, and it is about time for it to become law ? even if credit-card companies are among the beneficiaries.

? Todd Zywicki is a professor of law at George Mason University. He has testified before the House and Senate judiciary committees on bankruptcy reform.

My issue with bankruptcy is not to say people should not pay back what they owe. But do you know how many creditors actually push people into bankruptcy? Many people do not go into bankruptcy because they cannot pay their debts, but they cannot handle the creditors any more.

And all of those companies saying they will help are fraudulent. I tried to talk my brother-in-law (one of them) from using one of these companies. He didn’t listen, and ended up getting screwed by them because he sent them money as agreed, but they didn’t send the money on as agreed. Guess who got into trouble here? He is still working through his problems.

My sister-in-law was in charge of dealing with her mother’s finances after her death. There was little money, and one unpaid creditor started harassing her, so she paid $5,000 to get rid of them. Not ever realizing she was never legally responsible for the debt.

I do respect the people in the post earlier who decided to pool their money to pay their parents debts after their death, as long as they didn’t feel forced to do so. My sister was hit with fraud. They not only had no right to call her about debt she didn’t owe, but lied to her about her being responsible for the debt.

I cannot approve of making bankruptcies better for the creditor until they straighten out their practices.

Years ago I let my debt get a little too high, and decided to pay it off. I put a plan into place, completely planned on a spreadsheet, and implemented the payments. It was supposed to pay off about half the debt in just over 2.5 years. Unfortunately shortly after I implemented my plan, my wife needed to see a doctor. And while we had health insurance, we were about a year away from pharmacy benefits, and ended up with as high as $400 a month in medicine, and tons of medical bills above and beyond what the insurance company would pay.

One credit card called and we made a deal to let them take $60 a month from our bank account for 6 months, and they would eliminate all fees and interest. I thought great, and signed up.

Here were two mistakes I made. 1 giving them access to my bank account, and 2 not getting the agreement in writing. (This was with the bank that issued the card.) After 6 months, and $360, my account had actually gone up, and by hundreds.

I don’t know about you, but keeping my wife alive was priority to everything else, but one creditor actually disagreed with this.

I have one debt I had paid off, and then it was promptly sold to another creditor who tried to collect the full balance.

If you say people should pay what they owe, I agree. I worked 2 jobs, sold the USA Today (no home delivery) sold plasma, and did lab studies. This was in addition to tightening my belt and cutting expenses down as much as possible.

Here are a few things people might not know.

More money was spent on lobbying the government on this bill then any other bill in history. (Imagine if that was spent on prohormones instead?)

It is easy to get a credit card, or car loan after bankruptcy because the creditors know the people cannot declare bankruptcy again for a number of years.

Bankruptcy, or bad credit, will cause your car insurance premium to skyrocket.

Anyone else have creditor horror stories? I know there are plenty of them.

Hmmm… Good thread everybody. Read through all the responses, and maybe have something to add.

Whoever said defaulting on a loan is equal to stealing is silly. Defaulting on a loan is breaking a promise… not stealing. Understand something: when you are in debt to someone, it is very similar to them owning stock in you, like a fortune 500 company. This is even more true in the cases of revolving debt companies like credit card issuers. Think of your monthly interest rates as dividends that you pay out every month to your shareholders.

Expanding on this idea, we can see that the issue of taking on risk and the whole “caveat emptor” philosophy which we base our capitalist economy upon rests squarely on the shoulders of the companies which issue credit, not on the individual. Do they need more laws to protect themselves from predatory “companies” like those of us who purposely get into massive debt and then declare bankruptcy? Tough to say. I would imagine that most of the folks who have declared bankruptcy (like a few girls I know) didn’t do it on purpose just to fleece their creditors.

Thoughts anyone?

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:

Whoever said defaulting on a loan is equal to stealing is silly. Defaulting on a loan is breaking a promise… not stealing. [/quote]

If it is a promise to repay someone that is not honored, then it is both stealing and breaking a promise.

No matter how you look at it, you made a personal promise to repay the creditors. You can kid yourself and say, “They should have known I was a piece of shit who wouldn’t pay my debts. Caveot emptor” all you want. Bottom line is you took their money under false pretenses. You stole.

If you bought a new car that fell apart 4 miles from the dealership, would you just shrug your shoulders and say, “Caveot emptor”?

[quote]doogie wrote:
If it is a promise to repay someone that is not honored, then it is both stealing and breaking a promise.[/quote]
Ahahaha! So it was you, huh?

Uh uh. Sorry. So every time I bought stock in a company that went belly up they stole from me? Nice. Got any idea how I can get my five grand back? Insolvency is just that. Those guys weren’t thieves, they were bad businessmen or they had a run of bad luck on the market, etc. Do you see where I’m coming from? I took the chance and assumed the risk and possible reward when I decided to buy their stock, and now their company is insolvent. This is capitalism my friend, and is quite a bit different than thievery.

[quote]If you bought a new car that fell apart 4 miles from the dealership, would you just shrug your shoulders and say, “Caveot emptor”?[/quote] Aha! The Lemon Laws are a good example, and very similar to the bankruptcy laws we’re talking about in this thread. They are consumer protection laws meant to shield the CC companies from deadbeats. The problem I have with the new bankruptcy law is that the situations here are quite a bit different. In terms of capital investment, me buying a car is a HUGE deal, whereas the capital a CC company would invest in one of my girlfriends would be relatively miniscule to them. Let’s also not forget that the CC companies, due to their tremendous assets and influence are at quite a bit of an advantage over the “companies” that they invest in.

Let me ask again: is this new bankruptcy law necessary? I tend to be against law for its own sake. Let’s make laws that mean/do something constructive, ya know?

I’m arguing this from more of a moral perspective than a legal one. I guess you are right that you can hide behind the law and not be legally guilty for stealing the money.

Something else I just rememebered:

A while ago, my dad and I were sipping martinis and waxing philosophical, and he said something interesting:

What if the US defaulted on all US bonds, US treasury notes, etc.?

Wouldn’t it bankrupt every other country, and cancel the deficit?

We truly have the rest of the world by the balls, man!

lothario1132, for once, I agree with everything you just wrote. We are dealing with people who are trying oversimplify the very act of business when business itself has become more complex considering the amounts of money being made. I honestly can’t believe that people are crying for credit card companies become someone else screws up their own credit. CC companies have been stealing from the rest of us for decades in terms of interest yet no one has stood up for that and there are no laws to protect us from it.

I swear, some here act as if big business is the savior of every man, woman and child in this country. It is simply a part of society, not its foundation and should not be given any more control than it already has.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I swear, some here act as if big business is the savior of every man, woman and child in this country. It is simply a part of society, not its foundation and should not be given any more control than it already has.[/quote]

It has absolutely nothing to do with ‘big business being the savior’. It has everything to do with living up to your obligations.

You can hide behind the ‘poor me’ defense all you want. But doing what you say you are going to do is the mark of a man. To what degree you can fuck someone out of something is not.