Neuroplasticity and Combat Sports

Leave the internal martial arts bullshit to pencil neck geeks who are destined to move slowly anymay.If their bullshit Japslapping katas & traditional robotic moves worked,they would dominate the cages/ring and fighting arenas all over the world.But they dont.

I know hundreds of people who proved they could fight by wining in competitions and street battles.boxers,wrestlers,streetfighters,criminals,brutes,bouncers,military types,etc.

Why arent those heavy bag pounding,weight lifting,sperring,wrestling-training types being wiped out by kata drilling,internal masters who only need to strike your vital points to take you out? :)))

If you practice that Tai Chi as a form of yoga for longevity purposes or whatever,thats fine by me,but this is COMBAT froum,so take it elsewhere.

I want to make myself a more effective fighter and dont want to waste my time on something that is not effective.

/rant over/

[quote]Sifu wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]Josann wrote:
I recently read a book called “Spark” by John Ratay which touted the benefits of exercise for mental health. I am a psychotherapist and mental health counselor and the topic applies to the work I do. Ratay cited studies that showed martial arts training, particular kata and visualized activity build neuroplasticity in developing brains-adolsecents and teens- but is equally or even more important in the middle aged and aging brain. Because there is a combination of movement and thought along with visualzation the brain is forced to develop new pathways.

What I took away from this is that learning a new kata, or better yet some cross training, is beneficial for the middle age martial artist. And if people haven’t done martial arts ever then the non threatening tai chi class offered at the local senior center is a good idea.I prescribe all my patients to do some physical activity as the benefits are enormous for one’s mental health.[/quote]

That’s really interesting stuff.

Would shadowboxing work the same way? I.e., ‘seeing something’ that’s not there, but reacting to its movement and countering, etc?[/quote]

There are similarities but there are also differences. With shadow boxing you are trying to imagine yourself actually in a fight and you are going at normal speed with no set pattern. It’s still basically an external art.

Tai Chi on the other hand is an internal art. Because of that slow speed it allows you to be much more introspective. So you can become aware of things happening inside your body that you normally wouldn’t be aware of at full speed, because they are subtle. At normal speed you blast through them without even noticing them. What is important to understand is that although some of these internal things are subtle, if you can develop an awareness of them and get control of them, you can get some real big payoff.

Another internal art is Chi Gong which will take one movement and you repeatedly perform it. This gives faster results than Tai Chi.

The good news for you Irish is you can apply these concepts to western boxing techniques. I know they help because I use them myself. [/quote]

Yeah,western boxing is an external art.We are pounding each other skull and midsection until the other guy is done.I want to focus EXTERNALY so I can process as much vital info,like for example,a big right cross is coming to my jaw and I actually dont want to spend a few days in dark room recovering from concussion.
I am EXTERNALY preocupaid with spatial awereness of the ring,where my opponent is,trying to predict by his body language what he is up to while reacting to attack,counterattacking and TRUSTING MY SUBCONCIUS mind to organize my internal shit like dynamic balance,organization of my complex motor moves,reflexes and other stuff.

Realistic,challenging training is the way to produce fighters.
That includes fighting in some form or other as part of the training.
Fighting is a serie of explosive moves and only by doing those moves explosively you get to be proficient.

Fantastic posts Sifu.

[quote]Sifu wrote:
Also with kata it’s not all about striking or blocking. An essential aspect of kata that is often over looked is stances. As important as stances are, something else that is essential is the movement in between them.

There are people who think they are good at a kata who would be very surprised if they slowed it down. What you might notice on the transitions is there are spots where you feel like you are very vulnerable. You feel like your balance could be thrown off with a push from a pinky or maybe you are opening your guard to keep your balance without even realizing it. [/quote]

In my opinion this is the real value of kata/forms work as opposed to other methods. It fosters awareness of balance/position on a fine scale. Kata works well for feeling/being unconsciously aware of how weight is distributed, how you shift it, feeling the ground, etc.

A distant second is the psychology of going from relaxed to “On/ready to roll” and then back on command.

Thanks for posting.

Merry Christmas (I like to say it for a few extra days.),

Robert A

[quote]SKELAC wrote:

[quote]Sifu wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]Josann wrote:
I recently read a book called “Spark” by John Ratay which touted the benefits of exercise for mental health. I am a psychotherapist and mental health counselor and the topic applies to the work I do. Ratay cited studies that showed martial arts training, particular kata and visualized activity build neuroplasticity in developing brains-adolsecents and teens- but is equally or even more important in the middle aged and aging brain. Because there is a combination of movement and thought along with visualzation the brain is forced to develop new pathways.

What I took away from this is that learning a new kata, or better yet some cross training, is beneficial for the middle age martial artist. And if people haven’t done martial arts ever then the non threatening tai chi class offered at the local senior center is a good idea.I prescribe all my patients to do some physical activity as the benefits are enormous for one’s mental health.[/quote]

That’s really interesting stuff.

Would shadowboxing work the same way? I.e., ‘seeing something’ that’s not there, but reacting to its movement and countering, etc?[/quote]

There are similarities but there are also differences. With shadow boxing you are trying to imagine yourself actually in a fight and you are going at normal speed with no set pattern. It’s still basically an external art.

Tai Chi on the other hand is an internal art. Because of that slow speed it allows you to be much more introspective. So you can become aware of things happening inside your body that you normally wouldn’t be aware of at full speed, because they are subtle. At normal speed you blast through them without even noticing them. What is important to understand is that although some of these internal things are subtle, if you can develop an awareness of them and get control of them, you can get some real big payoff.

Another internal art is Chi Gong which will take one movement and you repeatedly perform it. This gives faster results than Tai Chi.

The good news for you Irish is you can apply these concepts to western boxing techniques. I know they help because I use them myself. [/quote]

Yeah,western boxing is an external art.We are pounding each other skull and midsection until the other guy is done.I want to focus EXTERNALY so I can process as much vital info,like for example,a big right cross is coming to my jaw and I actually dont want to spend a few days in dark room recovering from concussion.
I am EXTERNALY preocupaid with spatial awereness of the ring,where my opponent is,trying to predict by his body language what he is up to while reacting to attack,counterattacking and TRUSTING MY SUBCONCIUS mind to organize my internal shit like dynamic balance,organization of my complex motor moves,reflexes and other stuff.

Realistic,challenging training is the way to produce fighters.
That includes fighting in some form or other as part of the training.
Fighting is a serie of explosive moves and only by doing those moves explosively you get to be proficient.
[/quote]

Well, yes and no.

With striking I agree that explosiveness is paramount and that although some high torque low speed striking can be beneficial for finding the optimal body mechanics to generate power or perhaps developing active flexibility for kicks, most of your striking training should be done using quick body movements.

But, slow movements are definitely beneficial when training grappling techniques (especially at first) or when learning to put strikes into combinations (though it’s usually not necessary to go exaggeratedly slow, just sort of “smooth” if that makes sense). Eventually of course you do want to speed things up, but often times people (newbies especially) hide their sloppy technique behind speed.

So I think that both yours and Sifu’s post have merit.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]Sifu wrote:

There are similarities but there are also differences. With shadow boxing you are trying to imagine yourself actually in a fight and you are going at normal speed with no set pattern. It’s still basically an external art.

Tai Chi on the other hand is an internal art. Because of that slow speed it allows you to be much more introspective. So you can become aware of things happening inside your body that you normally wouldn’t be aware of at full speed, because they are subtle. At normal speed you blast through them without even noticing them. What is important to understand is that although some of these internal things are subtle, if you can develop an awareness of them and get control of them, you can get some real big payoff.

Another internal art is Chi Gong which will take one movement and you repeatedly perform it. This gives faster results than Tai Chi.

The good news for you Irish is you can apply these concepts to western boxing techniques. I know they help because I use them myself. [/quote]

How so? Maybe slowing the movement down to Tai Chi speed, and performing the same combination over and over?

I know Andre Ward’s trainer is a big proponent of doing things similar to this, but I have not tried it myself due only to my laziness.[/quote]

It’s late for me so I’m not going to get real deep with this explanation. I would take just one punch. My favorite is hook punch. The basic technique I like to use is the same one Bruce Lee copied word for word from the US Navy boxing manual. Mike Tyson throws his hook punches that way as well.

Something that may help you get this quick is you don’t have to slow all the way down to Tai chi speed. Try about half speed where it’s slower but you can still feel some of the centrifugal forces from the inertia. Once you have a feel for that an area that you can concentrate on is the very beginning of the punch. This will be a hook from the rear hand.

When the hip starts to drive and rotate bringing the chest around, you leave your elbow behind you so it stretches your pec and plyometrically loads it, then you let your fist fly. Normally you do that pre-load move real explosively. I can do that pre-load at Tai chi speed or maybe twice as fast, then let the fist fly at normal speed and still get good power out of it.

So this is a way I have found to tell if I have the slow mo part right. Part way through I accelerate it and if my technique is good it doesn’t really take away much from the strike.

I’ll leave you with one last important concept about Chi that a lot of westerners don’t know. I’ve seen a Chinese/English dictionary that had one hundred eighty six English definitions for the word Chi. It means much more than just some kind of energy force, like you are going to shoot lightning bolts at somebody with. It can be your physical strength. It could also be harnessing the movement of your body weight so you can channel it into a strike. Some of that movement can be very subtle but, because of how the body works you can get a lot of power out of it. That shifting of your weight is one of the things you are trying to get a feel for.

Just to put a little focus on this topic, imagery and watching something being performed are not one in the same as what neuroplasticity is.
Neuroplasticity implies that the ‘use it or lose it’ concept of axial connection and neural pathway development is not as limited as we once thought and can continue well into adult life. It is still rather young but super exciting topic amongst neuroscientists.
I think it’s definition is being muddied here a little so we should understand it properly.

From medicine.net, this is a fairly simple and good definition.

‘The brain’s ability to reorganize itself by forming new neural connections throughout life. Neuroplasticity allows the neurons (nerve cells) in the brain to compensate for injury and disease and to adjust their activities in response to new situations or to changes in their environment.’

In other words, in the initial OP’s post and what he watched, neuroplasticity is referring to parts of the brain taking over the duty of other parts of the brain which have been damaged through forming new axial connections and neural pathways.

The almost infinite ability for children to develop neural pathways comes from large amounts of exposure to physical activity, not mental activity. In other words, kids get smarter and develop more neural pathways through play at an early age rather than through mental activity.

Ones who watch sport being played will never develop anywhere near the ability of those who actually perform the sports.

This also applies to the above where someone suggested watching something can help improve performance in that thing.
Kinda against what neuroplasticity stands for.
I would not give kata that much credit at all as many physiological needs are not met during kata to have as much significant transfer effect over to full speed dynamic movement during fighting. However, I would merit it’s ability to ‘etch’ neural pathways for movement. Will it make you a spartan warrior? I think not! Can it help lube or prime neural pathways for movement? I believe so.

Dr Susan Greenfield is a pioneer in the area of neuroplasticity and she speaks well of the damaging effects, tv’s, computers and social media have on the development of children to teens through to adulthood. Basically her premise is that these mediums have detrimental effects on mental health and social well being and in no way can compare with people who actually go out there and do things as opposed to watching things or can’t compare with people who socialise in person with others rather than socialising through facebook or twitter etc.

So visualise as much as you want, it may improve your confidence and bravado. It may help calm you down, causing you to stress less, in turn causing less negative physiological states which allows you to perform your movements more effectively but in and of themselves, I still doubt that mere imagery actually improves the performance of a movement. Rather I believe it helps other associated factors which help the movement to be performed.

So whilst visualising may ‘slowly’ improve ones ability to perform a movement, it is much like socialising through a computer medium may improve your social skills ever so slightly but does not carry anywhere near the weight that socialising in person carries, ie no visual, sensual cues, no physiological/biochemical stressors and reactions in the same way that being in front of someone can have.

This is not unlike a fighter developing awesome skills on a bag and pad work and another developing those same skills through actual drills with a partner and then both of those not comparing to someone developing those skills through actual sparring and fighting.

To perform something or in our case movement, sure you can develop slightly through imagery and visualisation but immersing yourself in the environment along with all the associated stressors that go with it will have much more of a significant effect on development of that thing/movement.

From wiki on neuroplasticity and exercise:
[i]In a 2009 study, scientists made two groups of mice swim a water maze, and then in a separate trial subjected them to an unpleasant stimulus to see how quickly they would learn to move away from it. Then, over the next four weeks they allowed one group of mice to run inside their rodent wheels, an activity most mice enjoy, while they forced the other group to work harder on minitreadmills at a speed and duration controlled by the scientists. They then tested both groups again to track their learning skills and memory. Both groups of mice improved their performances in the water maze from the earlier trial. But only the extra-worked treadmill runners were better in the avoidance task, a skill that, according to neuroscientists, demands a more complicated cognitive response.[39]

The mice who were forced to run on the treadmills showed evidence of molecular changes in several portions of their brains when viewed under a microscope, while the voluntary wheel-runners had changes in only one area. â??Our results support the notion that different forms of exercise induce neuroplasticity changes in different brain regions,â?? Chauying J. Jen, a professor of physiology and an author of the study, said. [/i]

Again, the closing sentence from medicine.net is a simple but effective explanation of neuroplasticity:

‘For neurons to form beneficial connections, they must be correctly stimulated.’
The keywords being ‘beneficial connections’ and ‘correctly stimulated’.

Sorry to be a quote whore.