Need Help with Military Press

[quote]dreadlocks1221 wrote:
Thanks for the video, but why wouldn’t you recommend shrugging up? I read starting strength and Mark Riptoe also recommends it and I haven’t heard anyone say not o do it. [/quote]

Because Pavel said so :slight_smile:

Actually, I don’t know if he’s said it or not. He has said to keep the shoulders retracted through the whole movement.

Why I wouldn’t do it is because shrugging up might release the tension you’re using to flex the middle of your upper back, which could lead to a loss of stability.

Basically, with your shoulder blades retracted and the upper back tight, both shoulders act as a single solid unit; your arms pivot basically around the [external?] shoulder… where your deltoids are. When you release that tension, the shoulder blades become the pivot point, making that moment arm longer and harder to control, also both arms are now operating mostly independently, without the stable base of a tight upper back.

I might be wrong… that’s just my understanding of it. I feel like the shrug will make that base more unstable.

[quote]LoRez wrote:

For the most part though, we take care of our own. [/quote]

This is a problem.

Also, your mechanical explanation was incomplete. Your explanation of the leverages/forces was correct, but it didn’t address the translation of forces to actual dangers. You mentioned the 18-fold force increase, but that doesn’t prove that there’s an injury risk. If I hold a peanut in my hand, there’s no problem. There’s still no problem if I’m holding 18 peanuts. And it doesn’t matter what position I’m holding those peanuts. This looks like a silly example, but it proves that load needs to be factored in, and body composition as well, to actually assess the danger of a movement. I can lift more weight than you using shitty form and not risk injury. Ronnie Coleman can lift more than me with shitty form and be fine.

I’m not hating on you LoRez, your enthusiasm for this stuff is awesome, but it goes back to my original point that I’ve made so many times. The beginners forum should be sparse, because beginners should have almost NOTHING to talk about. Beginners should listen, period. Read articles. Read research. Apply knowledge. Talk about it after you’ve applied it for years. There are so many form explanations out there from knowledgeable coaches, and so many videos, it seems silly for beginners to re-hash these things ad nauseum, just regurgitating what they’ve read. I hope that makes sense. I’ve got nothing but love for anyone who trains hard.

Here is my 2 cents for you beginners and anyone who cares to listen. Find someone stronger and more experienced than you and learn by spending time lifting with them. If you can press 45 pounds over your head find someone who can do 200 to teach you. It doesn’t take long and most seasoned lifters are more than happy to help you. If your an intermediate lifter, find an advanced lifter, if your advanced then find a pro. It’s simple and easier than you think. That’s the best way to learn the skills that will last a lifetime. Do your part and keep teaching what you learn to inexperienced lifters around you.

I’m amazed there aren’t more posts in t- nation that simply say " I live in x town and want to learn how to squat. Is there anyone within 2 hours drive willing to help me out?" you’d be surprised how much access uou’d have to quality lifters willing to share.

Ok im done and live just outside NYC in case I can help any of you new guys out.

[quote]HARA wrote:
Here is my 2 cents for you beginners and anyone who cares to listen. Find someone stronger and more experienced than you and learn by spending time lifting with them. If you can press 45 pounds over your head find someone who can do 200 to teach you. It doesn’t take long and most seasoned lifters are more than happy to help you. If your an intermediate lifter, find an advanced lifter, if your advanced then find a pro. It’s simple and easier than you think. That’s the best way to learn the skills that will last a lifetime. Do your part and keep teaching what you learn to inexperienced lifters around you.

I’m amazed there aren’t more posts in t- nation that simply say " I live in x town and want to learn how to squat. Is there anyone within 2 hours drive willing to help me out?" you’d be surprised how much access uou’d have to quality lifters willing to share.

Ok im done and live just outside NYC in case I can help any of you new guys out.[/quote]

I certainly like this idea. I live in Chicago nad I lift in my bedroom. If there is a gym anyone in the area wants to meet in I would be more than happy to.

[quote]dreadlocks1221 wrote:

[quote]HARA wrote:
Here is my 2 cents for you beginners and anyone who cares to listen. Find someone stronger and more experienced than you and learn by spending time lifting with them. If you can press 45 pounds over your head find someone who can do 200 to teach you. It doesn’t take long and most seasoned lifters are more than happy to help you. If your an intermediate lifter, find an advanced lifter, if your advanced then find a pro. It’s simple and easier than you think. That’s the best way to learn the skills that will last a lifetime. Do your part and keep teaching what you learn to inexperienced lifters around you.

I’m amazed there aren’t more posts in t- nation that simply say " I live in x town and want to learn how to squat. Is there anyone within 2 hours drive willing to help me out?" you’d be surprised how much access uou’d have to quality lifters willing to share.

Ok im done and live just outside NYC in case I can help any of you new guys out.[/quote]

I certainly like this idea. I live in Chicago nad I lift in my bedroom. If there is a gym anyone in the area wants to meet in I would be more than happy to.
[/quote]
You might want to head over to the O35 section and PM Fisher613… He has a gym and trains people. Im not sure but I believe hes in Chicago or near there

[quote]LoRez wrote:

Only long enough to parrot information and share what’s helped for me.

[/quote]

BULL SHIT!!!

No your aren’t, not after only three months.

Let this sink into your over blown ego. Any damn thing you do is going to cause adaptation and improvement.

Answer me this? How do you know if the information regarding training is correct in the first place? There is allot of crap out there… Are you going to draw upon your vast wealth of actual hands on experiance? Let me pass on a little secret to you . Most advanced guys dont like dealing with beginners on the magical world of the Internet. Want to know why? Because of the fact you get guys whom have studied so much crap , that they think that they are experts that want to contradict every damn little thing when they are trying to just help.

By the way that little phrase " take care of are own" really? Own what? As its been pointed out most advanced guys are more then willing to help out and pass on what they have learned. Matter of fact most guys whom love the iron and " get it" view most other serious lifters be it BB, strongman ,powerlifting or O lifting as sorta “brothers in arms” regardless of their level. So could you in your vast wisdom clarify on that for such a simpleton like myself?

[quote]bulldog9899 wrote:

BULL SHIT!!!

No your aren’t, not after only three months.

By the way that little phrase " take care of are own" really? Own what? As its been pointed out most advanced guys are more then willing to help out and pass on what they have learned. Matter of fact most guys whom love the iron and " get it" view most other serious lifters be it BB, strongman ,powerlifting or O lifting as sorta “brothers in arms” regardless of their level. So could you in your vast wisdom clarify on that for such a simpleton like myself?[/quote]

bump

I’m not quite sure what you’re so bent out of shape about.

What did I mean by “take care of our own”? I meant, when one of us has a question, we share what’s worked for us, and what we’ve learned up until now. Or, as I said before “parrot information, and share what’s helped for me.” And, often, a more experienced poster will step in and make corrections or addendums if something’s a little off.

Let me put this into context. I’m not some out of shape skinny fat guy who just decided to start lifting 3 months ago with a whole 3 months worth of knowledge and then starts dishing out bad advice on the interwebs. Nor am I some 15yo kid whose only knowledge of lifting is the broscience spouted at his high school gym.

I used to run competitively everything from the 400m, 800m, to 5ks. I dabbled in the 200m just to piss off the sprinters who thought they were hot shit, and to keep my name on the wall as one of the fastest 200m runners on the team for an non-sprinter. I trained hard, year round, and dabbled very briefly in the weight room at that time. Later, I moved into bodyweight training and various calisthenic work, doing sets of 100+ pushups multiple times a week.

For awhile I was averaging 1000 pushups a week. Next, I moved into heavier progressive bodyweight exercises - pistol squats, one arm pushups, etc. And I did some kettlebell work there for awhile. I also trained for some of the old-school strongmen lifts like the Jefferson Lift and the Bent Press. When I decided to get into lifting, I did Starting Strength for awhile, until I injured myself white water rafting. That injury, combined with life, combined with my first real episode of major depression, set me back for several months.

Hell, I even did yoga seriously for awhile.

I’ve also studied a fair amount of the classic writings on lifting, studying the progression of training techniques and philosophies over time. Alan Calvert, George Jowett, Stuart McRobert, Pavel Tsatsouline, Vince Gironda, even Mark Rippetoe. Some John McCallum, some Reg Park, some stuff by Steve Reeves. Obviously none of that makes me anywhere near an expert, but it does make me well read and generally knowledgeable about who said what, why they said it, what they mean by it. Enough that I can say “hey, this guy said something about that, how about you go take a look?”

In terms of my personal experience, I’m fairly new to barbell weight lifting. But I’m not new to a lot of the other aspects of training.

My explanation of the physics involved was accurate. Yes, I also said that what he was doing is dangerous. Has he hurt himself yet? Doesn’t sound like it. If he continued on working this way, there’s a higher chance of him hurting himself as he moves into heavier weights, as compared to if he makes a few form adjustments. Will he hurt himself? Maybe not.

We’re dealing with probability of injury, and purely from a physics and biomechanics standpoint, what he’s doing is more likely to cause an eventual injury, especially as form deteriorates under heavier weights, than if he had improved his form to begin with.

I’ve known people who can drive better drunk, than most people do sober. But that doesn’t mean I’ll ever say it’s not “dangerous”. Some people have adapted to movements using very bad form, and have built up the appropriate musculature and tendon/ligament/bone strength to handle it. But that doesn’t mean I’ll say it’s a safe way to do things.

As far as my medical background, my girlfriend is on her final 6 months of her residency, and I’ve helped her with her studies since med school. That doesn’t make me as qualified as a doctor when talking about physiology or biomechanics, but it makes me more knowledgeable than many people.

If you really have a specific point to nitpick, we can discuss that.

But in the end, this is the internet. Those who think what I have to say has some merit, they’ll listen to me. Those who don’t will just ignore me.

Oh, since I didn’t mention it there… I have also dealt with my share of training injuries from bad form, from thinking I was better than physics, from ego-training, and I’ve dealt with the recovery aspects of it, having re-injured myself by being stupid, and dealing with the psychology involved in all of that.

While lifting injuries are obviously different than running injuries, those fundamentals aren’t.

Meh, I think in a few years time LoRez will be a good poster for this site. Why do I say this? Because he’s polite, respectful, and usually handles opposition with class.

I think self-appointing yourself to tell others who can and can’t post on a FREE INTERNET FORUM is just as presumptuous as him feeling compelled to advise beginners in the first place. But that’s just me.

There certainly are idiots that need monitoring in the forums. Lorez is not one of them. Advice may be a bit lacking in experience from time to time, but he’s more or less right usually.

Just to present another perspective. I am a physics graduate student and many quarters I TA for undergrads. Very often (almost always), the students find they learn better from us than the professors. Why? Because we are not so far removed from being undergrads ourselves. So beginners have a perspective in advising other beginners that more experienced lifters don’t have anymore!!! They are much less removed from being where they are and aspects of their advice are actually more relevant!

[quote]jskrabac wrote:
I think self-appointing yourself to tell others who can and can’t post on a FREE INTERNET FORUM is just as presumptuous as him feeling compelled to advise beginners in the first place. But that’s just me.

[/quote]

Presumptuous ? Going with what you just stated isnt it presumptuous of you to berate me for for stating my opinion? Im just stating what allot of people are thinking…but are just too political correct to state it.

Sorry OP. Im too busy reading about the habits of actual successful people (and visiting the gym) to be typing up 3 pages of shtty advice…

[quote]jskrabac wrote:
Meh, I think in a few years time LoRez will be a good poster for this site. Why do I say this? Because he’s polite, respectful, and usually handles opposition with class.

I think self-appointing yourself to tell others who can and can’t post on a FREE INTERNET FORUM is just as presumptuous as him feeling compelled to advise beginners in the first place. But that’s just me.
[/quote]

This. I’m impressed how he keeps backing up everything he says.

Just for future reference, if I say something, and someone says “hey, I don’t think that’s right”, I really would like to learn where I’m wrong and fix my thinking. I make mistakes because there’s things I don’t know and experience I don’t have.

[quote]bulldog9899 wrote:

[quote]jskrabac wrote:
I think self-appointing yourself to tell others who can and can’t post on a FREE INTERNET FORUM is just as presumptuous as him feeling compelled to advise beginners in the first place. But that’s just me.

[/quote]

Presumptuous ? Going with what you just stated isnt it presumptuous of you to berate me for for stating my opinion? Im just stating what allot of people are thinking…but are just too political correct to state it.[/quote]

I actually wasn’t thinking of anyone in particular when I wrote that. I was not intending to berate anyone either, just expressing my philosophy in regards to beginners posting. In fact, it would be presumptuous of me to berate you for expressing your opinion as you say, so carry on!

LoRez, respect. You are a delight to read.

Bulldog, nobody berated you, bruh.

[quote]Moe Doobie wrote:

Bulldog, nobody berated you, bruh.[/quote]

I stand corrected.

[quote]LoRez wrote:
I’m not quite sure what you’re so bent out of shape about.

What did I mean by “take care of our own”? I meant, when one of us has a question, we share what’s worked for us, and what we’ve learned up until now. Or, as I said before “parrot information, and share what’s helped for me.” And, often, a more experienced poster will step in and make corrections or addendums if something’s a little off.

Let me put this into context. I’m not some out of shape skinny fat guy who just decided to start lifting 3 months ago with a whole 3 months worth of knowledge and then starts dishing out bad advice on the interwebs. Nor am I some 15yo kid whose only knowledge of lifting is the broscience spouted at his high school gym.

I used to run competitively everything from the 400m, 800m, to 5ks. I dabbled in the 200m just to piss off the sprinters who thought they were hot shit, and to keep my name on the wall as one of the fastest 200m runners on the team for an non-sprinter. I trained hard, year round, and dabbled very briefly in the weight room at that time. Later, I moved into bodyweight training and various calisthenic work, doing sets of 100+ pushups multiple times a week.

For awhile I was averaging 1000 pushups a week. Next, I moved into heavier progressive bodyweight exercises - pistol squats, one arm pushups, etc. And I did some kettlebell work there for awhile. I also trained for some of the old-school strongmen lifts like the Jefferson Lift and the Bent Press. When I decided to get into lifting, I did Starting Strength for awhile, until I injured myself white water rafting. That injury, combined with life, combined with my first real episode of major depression, set me back for several months.

Hell, I even did yoga seriously for awhile.

I’ve also studied a fair amount of the classic writings on lifting, studying the progression of training techniques and philosophies over time. Alan Calvert, George Jowett, Stuart McRobert, Pavel Tsatsouline, Vince Gironda, even Mark Rippetoe. Some John McCallum, some Reg Park, some stuff by Steve Reeves. Obviously none of that makes me anywhere near an expert, but it does make me well read and generally knowledgeable about who said what, why they said it, what they mean by it. Enough that I can say “hey, this guy said something about that, how about you go take a look?”

In terms of my personal experience, I’m fairly new to barbell weight lifting. But I’m not new to a lot of the other aspects of training.

My explanation of the physics involved was accurate. Yes, I also said that what he was doing is dangerous. Has he hurt himself yet? Doesn’t sound like it. If he continued on working this way, there’s a higher chance of him hurting himself as he moves into heavier weights, as compared to if he makes a few form adjustments. Will he hurt himself? Maybe not.

We’re dealing with probability of injury, and purely from a physics and biomechanics standpoint, what he’s doing is more likely to cause an eventual injury, especially as form deteriorates under heavier weights, than if he had improved his form to begin with.

I’ve known people who can drive better drunk, than most people do sober. But that doesn’t mean I’ll ever say it’s not “dangerous”. Some people have adapted to movements using very bad form, and have built up the appropriate musculature and tendon/ligament/bone strength to handle it. But that doesn’t mean I’ll say it’s a safe way to do things.

As far as my medical background, my girlfriend is on her final 6 months of her residency, and I’ve helped her with her studies since med school. That doesn’t make me as qualified as a doctor when talking about physiology or biomechanics, but it makes me more knowledgeable than many people.

If you really have a specific point to nitpick, we can discuss that.

But in the end, this is the internet. Those who think what I have to say has some merit, they’ll listen to me. Those who don’t will just ignore me.[/quote]
Hmm… get your panties in a bunch much?

In reality, I could really care less about all this. The fact is I came across some “off” advice . And I half joking added a video. I broke my own rule regarding staying out of all the drama B.S.

Obviously, you have a education in the medical field and have studied some kinesiology.

But my point remains…from what you have said If i wanted to get faster in certain track events then yeah, Id probably hit you up for advice.

Your going to find …(This is me actual being sincere.) As pointed out that its great you have a passion for this and wanting to help others as long as that your true motivation… Understand there are so many people whom do it for some strange ego stroking. So understand your going to run into the fact people will question your motives. Problem is most people are going to feel that you haven’t yet to actually paid your dues. Again you could have a Masters degree in exercise science but people would still kinda overlook you . Too be brutally honest ( not being a prick here) but your going to actually need to get some “street cred”. Either by reaching a certain level of strength or development. By actually competing in a actual related competition. Or working hands on and coaching others and getting then to a certain level. Is it fair? nope. Is it a hard reality…yes. Especially on a site like this which still has a slight hard core mentality.

That’s my 2 cents…

You’re right. I don’t have the size, strength, or time in the gym. I understand that reality, and I keep my mouth shut when it comes to certain topics.

In a very real sense, a lot of my participation here is just to keep myself motivated, by keeping actively involved in thinking and breathing this stuff. I mostly lift at home so I don’t get that exposure I’d get from a gym membership. It’s not really ego-stroking as much as an active effort to combat my own ADHD, and if I can help someone out or point them to something I learned that they may not have seen, so much the better. Right now, I need to stay focused on the training long enough that it becomes a regular habitual part of my life. I’m not quite there yet.

I do think I’m on the right track with my own training, and I think in a year or three’s time, I’ll actually genuinely look like I lift. I’ve gained roughly 20 pounds in 3 months, and stayed fairly lean during it. But I need another 40+ before I’m remotely credible to a lot of people around here. Which is fine, I’ll get there.

And yeah, you did get to me a bit… but no worries. Thanks for the advice.

[quote]LoRez wrote:
I don’t have the size, strength, or time in the gym.
I’ve gained roughly 20 pounds in 3 months, and stayed fairly lean during it. But I need another 40+ before I’m remotely credible to a lot of people around here. Which is fine, I’ll get there.

[/quote]

Gawd, can’t imagine what you looked like 20 lbs ago! How about you don’t post until you get that other 40 lbs? You joined in June 2012 and you have over 700 post…you really need to be lifting more and typing less!