Need Help with Military Press

Training
21

[quote]Reed wrote:
Not to say caveman is wrong but just for a two cents thing I have incredible flexibility in my wrists my training partners find it insane but I press well over 250 with extremely bent wrists and feel perfect the second I straighten them up espeacially with a axle I loose the bar every single time. Just saying… although wrist wraps if you plan on continuing on with that would be a wise investment.[/quote]

Its not so much straight wrists, as it is keeping the bar in line with your forearms - efficient transfer of power. With a fat bar, your wrists will be bent back further due to the size of the bar, and if you can press with bent wrists without pain, lucky you.
Where Dreadlocks had the bar prompted my comment.

22

Caveman no I agree with what you were saying wasn’t trying to step on your toes it just doesn’t bother my wrists no matter the bar they are always extremely bent for me but it works.

23

Looks pretty good, your shoulders seem to have decent lexibility, and your getting your head through at the top. One thing that may keep you rom overextending the back is to look more straight ahead at the top, looking up is usually a cue to the body to arch the back.

Get tighter- your entire body, rom head to toe should be tight, concentrate on keeping the chest up high, and tense the glutes and quads hard. Also get your elbos up a bit higher, and tuck them in toards the center o your body.

24

[quote]bulldog9899 wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]bulldog9899 wrote:

[quote]dreadlocks1221 wrote:

[quote]bulldog9899 wrote:
How long have you been lifting?[/quote]

Not really sure how the spit takes are supposed to help,

I have been lifting for about 4 months. Before that I was doing insanity. [/quote]
The spit take isnt ment for you… its for the gent whoms giving some off advice [/quote]

Only long enough to parrot information and share what’s helped for me.

Maybe you interpreted what I said as “sucking in the stomach”. I meant the “valsava maneuver” + bracing the abs + avoiding hyperlordosis via lumbar flexion.

Valsava maneuver with hyperlordosis isn’t going to do anything. Lumbar flexion without bracing the abs isn’t going to do anything either.[/quote]
And again how long? 3 month a year or more???[/quote]

My appoligies I looked at your hub…It says you have been training since June 2012. Is this correct?

25

[quote]bulldog9899 wrote:

[quote]bulldog9899 wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]bulldog9899 wrote:

[quote]dreadlocks1221 wrote:

[quote]bulldog9899 wrote:
How long have you been lifting?[/quote]

Not really sure how the spit takes are supposed to help,

I have been lifting for about 4 months. Before that I was doing insanity. [/quote]
The spit take isnt ment for you… its for the gent whoms giving some off advice [/quote]

Only long enough to parrot information and share what’s helped for me.

Maybe you interpreted what I said as “sucking in the stomach”. I meant the “valsava maneuver” + bracing the abs + avoiding hyperlordosis via lumbar flexion.

Valsava maneuver with hyperlordosis isn’t going to do anything. Lumbar flexion without bracing the abs isn’t going to do anything either.[/quote]
And again how long? 3 month a year or more???[/quote]

My appoligies I looked at your hub…It says you have been training since June 2012. Is this correct? [/quote]

I’ll answer that, Lorez is essentially untrained. He’s spent a good deal of time talking about ideals of training, how to achieve certain looks, etc. But he would admit he hasn’t put in the time under the bar. His introduction to T Nation, (hopefully I remember this correctly) was a thread about how dudes trained 50 years ago, and he was asking about how to obtain basically the exact proportions those guys allegedly trained for. He took a lot of shit for the thread. He’s also mounted an impressive number of posts in 3 months, and tends to give just about every beginner advice, whether or not he’s trained more than them, because he believes he has sufficient knowledge to do so.

26

[quote]flipcollar wrote:
I’ll answer that, Lorez is essentially untrained. He’s spent a good deal of time talking about ideals of training, how to achieve certain looks, etc. But he would admit he hasn’t put in the time under the bar. His introduction to T Nation, (hopefully I remember this correctly) was a thread about how dudes trained 50 years ago, and he was asking about how to obtain basically the exact proportions those guys allegedly trained for. He took a lot of shit for the thread. He’s also mounted an impressive number of posts in 3 months, and tends to give just about every beginner advice, whether or not he’s trained more than them, because he believes he has sufficient knowledge to do so.[/quote]

That’s fundamentally correct. I disagree with the implications of that last sentence though.

At no point have I done any leon36-style advice giving. When there is a subject that I do know something about – like the necessity for a tight core when working overhead, not just lifting – then I volunteer information. When I said “pull the stomach toward the backbone”, it was a poor choice of words. I would never have suggested “sucking in the abs”. I went back and edited the original post for clarification. Flexing the abs and increasing intra-abdominal pressure via the valsalva maneuver brings the stomach toward the backbone, relative to the OP’s distended stomach in his videos. Those are the techniques he should be focusing on, as well as tightening the glutes in order to counteract the arch.

The way the OP is currently lifting is dangerous, based on the torque on the lumbar spine from his arch, as well as the torque on his wrists from not holding the bar over his forearms. A basic knowledge of anatomy and physics is all it takes to understand that. No need for years of seasoned effort under the bar to point out that it’s dangerous, and point out corrective measures.

When it’s a subject I don’t have personal experience with, I either: don’t comment, defer to other more experienced posters, or say something like “this is what I read, this is who said it, and it MAY work for you”.

I was a little surprised at the callout here, but I think you should look through my post history (much of it in GAL), before implying “he doesn’t know what he’s talking about and you should ignore him.”

27

Ah, knowledge. So useful. Look at all the economists, theoretical statisticians, and professors. They know everything and have done nothing. I have friends in the music business who’ve gone to school, know all the theory, scales and modes inside and out. They don’t have 100 hours of stage time and can’t play for shit.
The same holds true for lifting.

28

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]flipcollar wrote:
I’ll answer that, Lorez is essentially untrained. He’s spent a good deal of time talking about ideals of training, how to achieve certain looks, etc. But he would admit he hasn’t put in the time under the bar. His introduction to T Nation, (hopefully I remember this correctly) was a thread about how dudes trained 50 years ago, and he was asking about how to obtain basically the exact proportions those guys allegedly trained for. He took a lot of shit for the thread. He’s also mounted an impressive number of posts in 3 months, and tends to give just about every beginner advice, whether or not he’s trained more than them, because he believes he has sufficient knowledge to do so.[/quote]

That’s fundamentally correct. I disagree with the implications of that last sentence though.

At no point have I done any leon36-style advice giving. When there is a subject that I do know something about – like the necessity for a tight core when working overhead, not just lifting – then I volunteer information. When I said “pull the stomach toward the backbone”, it was a poor choice of words. I would never have suggested “sucking in the abs”. I went back and edited the original post for clarification. Flexing the abs and increasing intra-abdominal pressure via the valsalva maneuver brings the stomach toward the backbone, relative to the OP’s distended stomach in his videos. Those are the techniques he should be focusing on, as well as tightening the glutes in order to counteract the arch.

The way the OP is currently lifting is dangerous, based on the torque on the lumbar spine from his arch, as well as the torque on his wrists from not holding the bar over his forearms. A basic knowledge of anatomy and physics is all it takes to understand that. No need for years of seasoned effort under the bar to point out that it’s dangerous, and point out corrective measures.

When it’s a subject I don’t have personal experience with, I either: don’t comment, defer to other more experienced posters, or say something like “this is what I read, this is who said it, and it MAY work for you”.

I was a little surprised at the callout here, but I think you should look through my post history (much of it in GAL), before implying “he doesn’t know what he’s talking about and you should ignore him.”[/quote]

I’ve read a ton of your posts. I didn’t mention leon36. I was just being completely honest, nothing I said was untrue. I didn’t say “he gives bad advice” or “you should ignore him”. If you don’t want to be “called out”, then you’re going to have to produce results. Don’t leave yourself open to an honest call-out.

Also, your assertions about ‘basic anatomy’ and how it relates to torque may be overstated. To actually prove what he’s doing is dangerous from a physics perspective, you’d have to go into a lot of numbers, not just concepts. Tissue density (bone and soft tissue), angles (which can’t be measured from the video), weight being handled versus capacity, etc.

This is why it’s important to either: a) have a much more solid foundation in physiology than a class or 2, plus internet reading, or b) have experience. If you can speak from either of these perspectives, you can give much better advice.

I will never understand why beginners feel the need to answer other beginners questions. Blind leading the blind.

29

[quote]flipcollar wrote:
I will never understand why beginners feel the need to answer other beginners questions. Blind leading the blind.[/quote]

Can’t open a thread without see this guy. I thought he was picking up were Ethan7X left off. Only more knowledgable and polite. I don’t post much, I just read. I wish more newbies would do the same. Once I see 3 or more of his post in a thread, I usually leave and try another one.

Flip, you’re officially in charge of trash duties…clean these boards up! lol

sorry for hijack OP!

30

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

[quote]bulldog9899 wrote:

[quote]bulldog9899 wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]bulldog9899 wrote:

[quote]dreadlocks1221 wrote:

[quote]bulldog9899 wrote:
How long have you been lifting?[/quote]

Not really sure how the spit takes are supposed to help,

I have been lifting for about 4 months. Before that I was doing insanity. [/quote]
The spit take isnt ment for you… its for the gent whoms giving some off advice [/quote]

Only long enough to parrot information and share what’s helped for me.

Maybe you interpreted what I said as “sucking in the stomach”. I meant the “valsava maneuver” + bracing the abs + avoiding hyperlordosis via lumbar flexion.

Valsava maneuver with hyperlordosis isn’t going to do anything. Lumbar flexion without bracing the abs isn’t going to do anything either.[/quote]
And again how long? 3 month a year or more???[/quote]

My appoligies I looked at your hub…It says you have been training since June 2012. Is this correct? [/quote]

I’ll answer that, Lorez is essentially untrained. He’s spent a good deal of time talking about ideals of training, how to achieve certain looks, etc. But he would admit he hasn’t put in the time under the bar. His introduction to T Nation, (hopefully I remember this correctly) was a thread about how dudes trained 50 years ago, and he was asking about how to obtain basically the exact proportions those guys allegedly trained for. He took a lot of shit for the thread. He’s also mounted an impressive number of posts in 3 months, and tends to give just about every beginner advice, whether or not he’s trained more than them, because he believes he has sufficient knowledge to do so.[/quote]

I have to admit I tend to read these kind of threads very quickly. I only glance at who the author of a particular response in one of two cases:

  1. the tid bit of advice is very good, and then I see that the author is one of the many respected members of the forums (whether excelling in BB or PL. We all know who has proven results)

  2. the tid bit of advice is… well… seriously lacking. I end up shaking my head and seeing who gave the advice.

I’m seeing a trend for #2 here lately, particularly in the Beginner’s section.

The blind, desperately wanting to lead the blind.

I guess that is why the “who’s advice can I trust” post was made, huh?

31

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:
The way the OP is currently lifting is dangerous, based on the torque on the lumbar spine from his arch, as well as the torque on his wrists from not holding the bar over his forearms. A basic knowledge of anatomy and physics is all it takes to understand that. No need for years of seasoned effort under the bar to point out that it’s dangerous, and point out corrective measures.
[/quote]

Also, your assertions about ‘basic anatomy’ and how it relates to torque may be overstated. To actually prove what he’s doing is dangerous from a physics perspective, you’d have to go into a lot of numbers, not just concepts. Tissue density (bone and soft tissue), angles (which can’t be measured from the video), weight being handled versus capacity, etc.

This is why it’s important to either: a) have a much more solid foundation in physiology than a class or 2, plus internet reading, or b) have experience. If you can speak from either of these perspectives, you can give much better advice.
[/quote]

Tissue density is completely irrelevant here.

Take this shot of the wrists, for instance:

803×490 230 KB

Torque is a measure of the distance between a point and a load, times the perpendicular force exerted by the load. If the bar is directly over the forearms, the torque on the wrists is 0 ft-lb.

Now if I read it right, the bar is 145 lbs. And it looks like the bar is 3-4" from that point of rotation. Let’s say it’s 3". His wrists are dealing with ~36ft-lbs of torque from the bar by holding it that way. Sure, his tendons can handle it just fine there. But it’s an unnecessary strain that can be avoided simply by holding the bar with his wrists straighter, and one that scales linearly as he adds weight. At some point, his tendons will become a limiting factor if he keeps that practice up… not his shoulders, not his triceps, his wrist tendons.

If he were to hold his wrists much straighter, and the bar was roughly .5" away from that point of rotation, the torque on his wrists is only 6 ft-lbs of torque. However, given that at .5" out, it’s no longer a 0 degree angle between those points because the palm is thicker (it’s closer to a 30-45 degree angle) the perpendicular force isn’t 145 but actually 102-126lbs, which means the torque on his wrists is actually only 4-5 ft-lbs of torque.

The difference between being being almost vertical, to how he has it now, is a 9-fold increase in force on his tendons in his wrists. Let’s say he doubles his military press strength… his wrists are going to have to be dealing with 18 times the force they would be if he were just holding 145 mostly vertical.

Can his wrists take it? Maybe. Would it be safer to keep his wrists more vertical to avoid damaging a tendon or tearing a muscle in his forearms? Yes.

806×502 154 KB

In the case of the force produced on the lumbar spine by arching his back forward… it’s actually not a linear relationship. Just a little bit more arch than he has, and the force increases significantly. It’s not an exponential increase, but it’s more than linear. Given that his stomach is distended in the photo, the horizontal forces from that loading are not being distributed across his core very evenly, and are being borne by his lumbar spine to a significant degree.

If he reduced that curvature, it would reduce those forces quite a bit. He could also use the valsalva maneuver to distribute the load-bearing across other tissue in his midsection; without IAP, the rear of the abdominal cavity bears most of the load, but with IAP, that load can be distributed across nearly the entire midsection.

By doing both – as I suggested – it will reduce the strain on his lumbar spine, and reduce the risk of injury if he ever somewhat gets off balance during the pressing phase (like, say, if his shoulders or arms start giving out, and the load becomes a bit unstable.)

The issues with form and how it affects torque is clearly visible in this video. The physics behind that are very straightforward. The form cues I suggested will reduce the loading to his wrists and lumbar spine, which will reduce the risk of injury.

The details of intra-abdominal pressure are a little less obvious, and the physics are slightly more advanced, but again, it doesn’t require a genius to know that a pressurized object exerts more stability than a non-pressurized one (e.g., car tires).

I kind of do know what I’m talking about here.

32

[quote]late_start wrote:
I have to admit I tend to read these kind of threads very quickly. I only glance at who the author of a particular response in one of two cases:

  1. the tid bit of advice is very good, and then I see that the author is one of the many respected members of the forums (whether excelling in BB or PL. We all know who has proven results)

  2. the tid bit of advice is… well… seriously lacking. I end up shaking my head and seeing who gave the advice.

I’m seeing a trend for #2 here lately, particularly in the Beginner’s section.

The blind, desperately wanting to lead the blind.

I guess that is why the “who’s advice can I trust” post was made, huh?
[/quote]

I think most people come to this site to LEARN how to get STRONG from STRONG PEOPLE, how to get BIG from BIG PEOPLE, how to get RIPPED from RIPPED PEOPLE…and so on…and I like to believe that this advise/knowledge comes from people who have the physiques to back it up! So if you don’t have a pic of yourself in you hub or as you avi…then I’m moving to next post.

/end rant

33

Flip, you’re a good guy, and I know you mean well. Since you’ve been gone (business trip? this is the first time I’ve seen you in probably a month), Beginner’s has been mostly a handful of us helping each other and giving advice.

But Beginners doesn’t exist in isolation. I know there are many many seasoned lifters who read this subforum regularly, and now and again they swoop in and say something. If something can be seriously misconstrued (like my statement earlier in this thread), then they’ll call us out and/or correct things.

For the most part though, we take care of our own. Some of us know a few things more than others, and we share that. There’s things I know about how to progress in pullups, pushups, and working without a power rack. There’s things I know about endurance training and interval training. Do I know optimal set/rep schemes? No. I know the programs many beginners learn from (like starting strength), even if they never actually do that. I know where to find lots of good knowledge, and I point people in that direction. I’ve read what several generations of lifters have written, and I can share what I’ve learned from it.

I’ve also been very open about what I know and what I don’t know, and about my experience level. I would say that I’ve probably been more genuine and open about that than most people who post on this site. And I really don’t mean to call anyone out on that.

I know you don’t understand why I feel the need to help other people out. That’s fine. But I’m also aware that our advice is also reviewed by a very experienced set of eyes, that do step in and correct things that are outright wrong or problematic.

And yes, what I wrote earlier is problematic. I corrected and clarified myself when I realized it was misconstrued.

I know the physics explanation was a bit excessive, although I hope that it clarifies the WHYs of certain form cues. It’s an answer that can be independently verified without just going off of “some guy who looks like they lift said it”.

34

In GAL there is a thread, August Check in/Photo. This has spawned from another thread where somebody said a recent pic of yourself should be mandatory as your avi. This way people would have a better idea of who was doling out advice. I think it’s a great idea. Beginners helping out beginners seems like a slow boat…
LoRez, might you like to upload a pic in your hub?

35

Will do. Assuming I don’t go out of town this weekend (haven’t decided yet), I’ll be taking photos and measurements September 1st. I do have a photo in the GAL August Check In thread.

36

[quote]LoRez wrote:
Will do. Assuming I don’t go out of town this weekend (haven’t decided yet), I’ll be taking photos and measurements September 1st. I do have a photo in the GAL August Check In thread.[/quote]
Oh, cool. I’m gonna go check over there, I do as well.

37

[quote]strangemeadow wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:
Will do. Assuming I don’t go out of town this weekend (haven’t decided yet), I’ll be taking photos and measurements September 1st. I do have a photo in the GAL August Check In thread.[/quote]
Oh, cool. I’m gonna go check over there, I do as well.
[/quote]

About the only thing I can say about that photo is that I’m lean. September 1st photos will look much better.

38

Well I appreciate any advice I can get. LoRez’s advice is still pretty good whether or not he is pretty ripped. Plus I go for the general consensus too, which is why I like to get a lot of comments. can someone post a link to a video of someone doing a military press from a good angle? (I learn better visually).

39

This guys video looks decent. The only thing I wouldn’t do is the “shrug” at the top like he does.

From everything I’ve learned about the standing OHP, you want to keep the shoulder blades retracted through the whole motion. The form cue I’ve heard to remember to do that is to imagine yourself pushing yourself down, away from the bar.

However, I’m totally open to any comments and criticism here.

40

[quote]LoRez wrote:
This guys video looks decent. The only thing I wouldn’t do is the “shrug” at the top like he does.

From everything I’ve learned about the standing OHP, you want to keep the shoulder blades retracted through the whole motion. The form cue I’ve heard to remember to do that is to imagine yourself pushing yourself down, away from the bar.

However, I’m totally open to any comments and criticism here.[/quote]

Thanks for the video, but why wouldn’t you recommend shrugging up? I read starting strength and Mark Riptoe also recommends it and I haven’t heard anyone say not o do it.