Need Help on SS

Training
21

[quote]twojarslave wrote:
I think Chris has put some excellent food for thought out there and I will share with you my observations of this fat man’s year with a barbell.

First, the lifting. I’ve been running something similar to Starting Strength. For discussion purposes, let’s just call it that. Almost all compounds with 3 top sets of 5. A strength program. I’m very consistent and I lift with intensity.

The beginning is sweet. I lost fat and got stronger without making too many radical diet changes. Win/win.

That gravy train petered out. I started weighing food and logging intake. I lost fat but my lifts stalled, so I wasn’t “running” the program, which was designed with progression in mind, but rather doing the movements prescribed by the program with the goal of maintaining strength. It worked fine, when my diet was in check.

Summer rolled around and I started eating more and drinking more empty calories. Still running the same program, I got stronger, gained a few pounds but saw little change in body composition or how I’ve looked in the mirror. I’ve learned that you can’t out-exercise a calorie surplus, but dammit I sure as hell tried to. But hey, strength gains have kept me engaged in the process of improvement by keeping it fun for me. So that’s a plus.

So what’s my point? I have three.

  1. Chris is right. My past year is an affirmation of his above post.

  2. Diet is the most important element of fat loss. Program A or program B will matter very little if your diet is not in order.

  3. The merits of program A vs program B do not matter unless you actually get out and lift. To paraphrase Serge’s advice in another thread, pretty much everything “works” for beginners. Find a way to lift that you really enjoy that keeps you in the weight room. My results have been far from optimal, but I’ve found a way to really enjoy a positive lifestyle change. I’ve weathered a summer of less-than-perfect diet choices and I’m still on a trajectory to be some combination of stronger, leaner and healthier than I was last year.

I’d just be fatter and weaker if I didn’t find a way to lift that I enjoy enough to do consistently day-in, day-out.

I’m now at a point where I’m taking a close look at my own training, I’m doing my homework and a change will be coming soon. But I don’t regret running this strength program for the last year. Not one bit. It has taught me a lot about my own body and it has gotten me a lot stronger and I’m still about 40 pounds down from my starting weight. Could I be 80 pounds down if I did things better? Definitely. But I’m still MUCH better off than I was before, any way you measure it.

I’m also still chugging along with no thoughts of giving up on the process. Not quitting is very important.

So, back to my first post in this thread, spending some time getting strong may not be the “best” thing you can do. But if you feel like you WANT to get stronger, just go do it. You may lose fat and get stronger at your stage. Or you may get stronger without losing fat. Only one way to find out what happens.

If you really don’t care about how much iron you are moving then you should absolutely try a different style of training more suited to your priority of fat loss.

Whatever you do, don’t let the search for the perfect program or perfect diet get in the way of making a good improvement.

And never, ever quit.[/quote]
What can I say, bro? Very inspirational indeed. And I understand what you mean.
I really enjoy the way I am training now. I look forward to training the way I have been. Shit, this is the first time training in my life. I definitely see results, strength wise. Not to much in how I look though. It;s just that I feel sometimes it’s a waste of time because of the stall. I know I’m better off still training than not but it’s like I’m going no where. It sucks. My priority is fat loss, but I don’t mind if it’s slow, as long as my strength is going up and/or I’m looking bigger, muscle wise. But right now, I am not getting any stronger and the fat loss stopped. A dead end. That’s what makes me feel like giving up sometimes because I’m doing it for nothing.

Perhaps, like others have been saying also, a strength program isn’t optimal for me at this time. Apparently I am having a harder time than others that had the same intentions as me running SS.

What were your stats before you started and where are you now, if you don’t mind me asking.

Thanks for taking the time to respond to my thread. Appreciate it as well.

22

Not sure why my quotes didn’t go through, Chris.

My apologies on the food log. It didn’t paste like I intended.
The numbers are:
Calories/Carbs/Fat/Protein

Ignore the other numbers

23

[quote]Zoomy wrote:

[quote]twojarslave wrote:
I think Chris has put some excellent food for thought out there and I will share with you my observations of this fat man’s year with a barbell.

First, the lifting. I’ve been running something similar to Starting Strength. For discussion purposes, let’s just call it that. Almost all compounds with 3 top sets of 5. A strength program. I’m very consistent and I lift with intensity.

The beginning is sweet. I lost fat and got stronger without making too many radical diet changes. Win/win.

That gravy train petered out. I started weighing food and logging intake. I lost fat but my lifts stalled, so I wasn’t “running” the program, which was designed with progression in mind, but rather doing the movements prescribed by the program with the goal of maintaining strength. It worked fine, when my diet was in check.

Summer rolled around and I started eating more and drinking more empty calories. Still running the same program, I got stronger, gained a few pounds but saw little change in body composition or how I’ve looked in the mirror. I’ve learned that you can’t out-exercise a calorie surplus, but dammit I sure as hell tried to. But hey, strength gains have kept me engaged in the process of improvement by keeping it fun for me. So that’s a plus.

So what’s my point? I have three.

  1. Chris is right. My past year is an affirmation of his above post.

  2. Diet is the most important element of fat loss. Program A or program B will matter very little if your diet is not in order.

  3. The merits of program A vs program B do not matter unless you actually get out and lift. To paraphrase Serge’s advice in another thread, pretty much everything “works” for beginners. Find a way to lift that you really enjoy that keeps you in the weight room. My results have been far from optimal, but I’ve found a way to really enjoy a positive lifestyle change. I’ve weathered a summer of less-than-perfect diet choices and I’m still on a trajectory to be some combination of stronger, leaner and healthier than I was last year.

I’d just be fatter and weaker if I didn’t find a way to lift that I enjoy enough to do consistently day-in, day-out.

I’m now at a point where I’m taking a close look at my own training, I’m doing my homework and a change will be coming soon. But I don’t regret running this strength program for the last year. Not one bit. It has taught me a lot about my own body and it has gotten me a lot stronger and I’m still about 40 pounds down from my starting weight. Could I be 80 pounds down if I did things better? Definitely. But I’m still MUCH better off than I was before, any way you measure it.

I’m also still chugging along with no thoughts of giving up on the process. Not quitting is very important.

So, back to my first post in this thread, spending some time getting strong may not be the “best” thing you can do. But if you feel like you WANT to get stronger, just go do it. You may lose fat and get stronger at your stage. Or you may get stronger without losing fat. Only one way to find out what happens.

If you really don’t care about how much iron you are moving then you should absolutely try a different style of training more suited to your priority of fat loss.

Whatever you do, don’t let the search for the perfect program or perfect diet get in the way of making a good improvement.

And never, ever quit.[/quote]
What can I say, bro? Very inspirational indeed. And I understand what you mean.
I really enjoy the way I am training now. I look forward to training the way I have been. Shit, this is the first time training in my life. I definitely see results, strength wise. Not to much in how I look though. It;s just that I feel sometimes it’s a waste of time because of the stall. I know I’m better off still training than not but it’s like I’m going no where. It sucks. My priority is fat loss, but I don’t mind if it’s slow, as long as my strength is going up and/or I’m looking bigger, muscle wise. But right now, I am not getting any stronger and the fat loss stopped. A dead end. That’s what makes me feel like giving up sometimes because I’m doing it for nothing.

Perhaps, like others have been saying also, a strength program isn’t optimal for me at this time. Apparently I am having a harder time than others that had the same intentions as me running SS.

What were your stats before you started and where are you now, if you don’t mind me asking.

Thanks for taking the time to respond to my thread. Appreciate it as well.
[/quote]

I started logging here in May, and you can see what I have done since then in the Over 35 section. I am 34, 6’00". I started at 330 or so, dicked around with dumbbells and cardio for a few months and lost a quick 25-30 pounds. Started serious barbell work last September, lost another 20 pounds and got down to 280 at my lightest. I was at 287 yesterday, so back up a bit in weight.

But the strength gains have been nice. And I look a lot different. Still fat, but strong-looking fat.

My recent best lifts are 545 DL, 455 squat and 285 bench with almost one year of consistent barbell trainng. Trying 300 tomorrow. I had never done any strength training prior to last year.

I still have a lot of work to do in the kitchen.

I think it is very important to get some momentum with the process. The results follow the effort, but they really are guaranteed.

I am sure you will do great. Just stick with it, and never stop looking for ways to get better. If you are anything like me, you won’t need to look far.

24

SS isn’t targeted as a fat loss program. Generally it’s going to be run 4 to 6 months before the trainee has to move on to another program.

This is why Rippetoe doesn’t really give fat loss advice, since the program isn’t meant for that. It’s meant to take the novice trainee to the edge of entering intermediate level. As such, eating is the fuel to get there.

You can’t serve two masters. There is no conditioning mixed in with SS. The lifter is needing all his calories to be used for building strength.

If you are impatient to get to the fat loss, then drop SS and do something else. But your numbers would make me think that there is still more strength gains to be milked out of SS for you.

Lastly, you shouldn’t slag off your strength gains. Those numbers are YOUR numbers, and they are better than when you started SS. Progress is progress. YOU did that. Don’t compare yourself to others. You are doing the right thing to question your stalling. I just happen to think you need to pick between strength gains NOW, fat loss LATER… or fat loss NOW. Can’t have it both ways.

25

[quote]twojarslave wrote:

[quote]Zoomy wrote:

[quote]twojarslave wrote:
I think Chris has put some excellent food for thought out there and I will share with you my observations of this fat man’s year with a barbell.

First, the lifting. I’ve been running something similar to Starting Strength. For discussion purposes, let’s just call it that. Almost all compounds with 3 top sets of 5. A strength program. I’m very consistent and I lift with intensity.

The beginning is sweet. I lost fat and got stronger without making too many radical diet changes. Win/win.

That gravy train petered out. I started weighing food and logging intake. I lost fat but my lifts stalled, so I wasn’t “running” the program, which was designed with progression in mind, but rather doing the movements prescribed by the program with the goal of maintaining strength. It worked fine, when my diet was in check.

Summer rolled around and I started eating more and drinking more empty calories. Still running the same program, I got stronger, gained a few pounds but saw little change in body composition or how I’ve looked in the mirror. I’ve learned that you can’t out-exercise a calorie surplus, but dammit I sure as hell tried to. But hey, strength gains have kept me engaged in the process of improvement by keeping it fun for me. So that’s a plus.

So what’s my point? I have three.

  1. Chris is right. My past year is an affirmation of his above post.

  2. Diet is the most important element of fat loss. Program A or program B will matter very little if your diet is not in order.

  3. The merits of program A vs program B do not matter unless you actually get out and lift. To paraphrase Serge’s advice in another thread, pretty much everything “works” for beginners. Find a way to lift that you really enjoy that keeps you in the weight room. My results have been far from optimal, but I’ve found a way to really enjoy a positive lifestyle change. I’ve weathered a summer of less-than-perfect diet choices and I’m still on a trajectory to be some combination of stronger, leaner and healthier than I was last year.

I’d just be fatter and weaker if I didn’t find a way to lift that I enjoy enough to do consistently day-in, day-out.

I’m now at a point where I’m taking a close look at my own training, I’m doing my homework and a change will be coming soon. But I don’t regret running this strength program for the last year. Not one bit. It has taught me a lot about my own body and it has gotten me a lot stronger and I’m still about 40 pounds down from my starting weight. Could I be 80 pounds down if I did things better? Definitely. But I’m still MUCH better off than I was before, any way you measure it.

I’m also still chugging along with no thoughts of giving up on the process. Not quitting is very important.

So, back to my first post in this thread, spending some time getting strong may not be the “best” thing you can do. But if you feel like you WANT to get stronger, just go do it. You may lose fat and get stronger at your stage. Or you may get stronger without losing fat. Only one way to find out what happens.

If you really don’t care about how much iron you are moving then you should absolutely try a different style of training more suited to your priority of fat loss.

Whatever you do, don’t let the search for the perfect program or perfect diet get in the way of making a good improvement.

And never, ever quit.[/quote]
What can I say, bro? Very inspirational indeed. And I understand what you mean.
I really enjoy the way I am training now. I look forward to training the way I have been. Shit, this is the first time training in my life. I definitely see results, strength wise. Not to much in how I look though. It;s just that I feel sometimes it’s a waste of time because of the stall. I know I’m better off still training than not but it’s like I’m going no where. It sucks. My priority is fat loss, but I don’t mind if it’s slow, as long as my strength is going up and/or I’m looking bigger, muscle wise. But right now, I am not getting any stronger and the fat loss stopped. A dead end. That’s what makes me feel like giving up sometimes because I’m doing it for nothing.

Perhaps, like others have been saying also, a strength program isn’t optimal for me at this time. Apparently I am having a harder time than others that had the same intentions as me running SS.

What were your stats before you started and where are you now, if you don’t mind me asking.

Thanks for taking the time to respond to my thread. Appreciate it as well.
[/quote]

I started logging here in May, and you can see what I have done since then in the Over 35 section. I am 34, 6’00". I started at 330 or so, dicked around with dumbbells and cardio for a few months and lost a quick 25-30 pounds. Started serious barbell work last September, lost another 20 pounds and got down to 280 at my lightest. I was at 287 yesterday, so back up a bit in weight.

But the strength gains have been nice. And I look a lot different. Still fat, but strong-looking fat.

My recent best lifts are 545 DL, 455 squat and 285 bench with almost one year of consistent barbell trainng. Trying 300 tomorrow. I had never done any strength training prior to last year.

I still have a lot of work to do in the kitchen.

I think it is very important to get some momentum with the process. The results follow the effort, but they really are guaranteed.

I am sure you will do great. Just stick with it, and never stop looking for ways to get better. If you are anything like me, you won’t need to look far.[/quote]
Fucking awesome man. Good for you! I hope you keep it up as well. At least you have built your foundation of strength already.

What numbers were you starting with?

26

[quote]SevenDragons wrote:
SS isn’t targeted as a fat loss program. Generally it’s going to be run 4 to 6 months before the trainee has to move on to another program.

This is why Rippetoe doesn’t really give fat loss advice, since the program isn’t meant for that. It’s meant to take the novice trainee to the edge of entering intermediate level. As such, eating is the fuel to get there.

You can’t serve two masters. There is no conditioning mixed in with SS. The lifter is needing all his calories to be used for building strength.

If you are impatient to get to the fat loss, then drop SS and do something else. But your numbers would make me think that there is still more strength gains to be milked out of SS for you.

Lastly, you shouldn’t slag off your strength gains. Those numbers are YOUR numbers, and they are better than when you started SS. Progress is progress. YOU did that. Don’t compare yourself to others. You are doing the right thing to question your stalling. I just happen to think you need to pick between strength gains NOW, fat loss LATER… or fat loss NOW. Can’t have it both ways.

[/quote]

Thanks for the response.

I know it isn’t a fat loss program but a lot of people said it’s a good beginner program for fat loss and for building strength. There is a kid in the same gym as me who does it. He lost a lot of weight, more than me, but his lift stalled as well. Struggling bad.

I seem to be different. What I decided to do is eat at maintenance. I started doing it last week and I already hit new PR’s and I’m not really struggling with the current weights. I stalled at 205 squats twice already and since upping my calories, I did 202.5 with ease and for shits and giggles, threw 2 plates on for one rep and did that with no problem. Totally stoked and I haven’t gained any weight so far which is a good thing right now.

I started taking some of the advice here and will do a slow recomp Summers pretty much over so I don’t mind carrying around some fat for now.

Again, thanks for your 2 cents. I appreciate it.

27

[quote]Zoomy wrote:
Fucking awesome man. Good for you! I hope you keep it up as well. At least you have built your foundation of strength already.

What numbers were you starting with?[/quote]

Thanks. I’ve really grown to love lifting, which is something I never could have imagined myself doing. So I have no intentions of quitting. At all.

As far as my starting numbers go, it is kind of tough to say just how strong I was because I didn’t have meaningful measurements and I was figuring strength out on my own. I also did not get diligent with logging until joining this site.

That said, my beginning work sets are probably a better before/after benchmark, as I did not do any meaningful 1rm testing in the beginning.

155x5 on bench (recent best work set of 260x5)
185x5 on squat (recent best work set of 405x4)
275x5 on deadlift (recent best work set of 475x4)

So I wasn’t totally weak to start, but I sure felt like it. Being strong rocks. It is a great feeling, especially if you’ve gone through your adult life being fat and weak. I remember being thin, and that rocked too.

I really look forward to being both strong and lean. I am sure that will be even better. I wish I was as good at losing fat as I am at getting strong!

28

FWIW, I ran SS fine w/out gaining any weight (well, maybe a pound or two). By fine, I mean 300+ squat, 200+ bench, 170+ OHP, 300+ DL (always my worst lift) at a bw of 245.

And that was with conditioning… though, it was nothing hectic: 1x/week at the end, mile run or sprints and some complexes. I also eventually ended up getting hurt, so perhaps I was pushing myself too hard (though, I think it was more form/stupidity).

Since then, I ended up gaining up to 255 and cutting it back down to 205.

29

[quote]1 Man Island wrote:
FWIW, I ran SS fine w/out gaining any weight (well, maybe a pound or two). By fine, I mean 300+ squat, 200+ bench, 170+ OHP, 300+ DL (always my worst lift) at a bw of 245.

And that was with conditioning… though, it was nothing hectic: 1x/week at the end, mile run or sprints and some complexes. I also eventually ended up getting hurt, so perhaps I was pushing myself too hard (though, I think it was more form/stupidity).

Since then, I ended up gaining up to 255 and cutting it back down to 205.[/quote]

I am pretty much in this same boat. I was about to tap out my potential on it when my child was born, and after that I scaled way back to allow myself to adjust to less sleep. Running it back up again but last tested maxes were 285 bench, 335 squat, 435 Dead, 175 OHP and since Jan my bw has only fluctuated between 200 and 210. I may try to knock things down to 185 but I am content to stay right here as long as I am getting stronger. I don’t know how well SS would work in a deficit though.

30

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
I don’t know how well SS would work in a deficit though.[/quote]

It wouldn’t.

Programs like SS, 5x5, or any other high volume types where you are using nearly 85%+ of your 1RM (which is what those sorts of programs intend to do in order to push your growth) REQUIRE lots of eating. LOTS OF EATING.

Not that other programs do not. But when you are squatting at such high levels of your max THREE TIMES per week- you better be sucking down 4k calories daily for most people. Otherwise you are going to stall hard.

Those types of high levels aren’t being run for years at a time. They work, and very well, for untrained n00bs precisely because n00bs are simply incapable of lifting heavy enough weight that their body cannot recover in a couple of days IF THEY ARE EATING MASSIVE CALORIES AND MINIMUM 200g PROTEIN DAILY.

That’s why Rippetoe doesn’t proffer diet advice short of “skinny guys should add GOMAD. fat guys should not”.

These sorts of programs are running on such a small timetable in the greater scheme of your lifting life (which can be many decades long) that getting fat isn’t worth wasting your time worrying about. And if you do happen to get a bit too fluffy? Well, you also probably added 10-20 lbs of muscle on your body that will help immensely in exploiting HIIT style conditioning to help drop some of that fat POST-SS.