Tampa, get the reference I put up earlier. its not looking at specific studies like Serrano/berardi
you can even check out a reasonable article by Thomas Incledon and Lori Gross that is over at www.thinkmuscle.com
http://www.thinkmuscle.com/articles/incledon/diet-01.htm
its a two parter, so thats the link to the first one. Tey associate more of a moderate fat (30% with more safa than pufa) but you can go either way. Its not going to have a huge effect either way.
and in terms of berardis commentary on low fat diets causing test to crash, most if not all of the studies are on vegetarian diets, which have more differences from other diets than just fat level themselves. Nobody should eat a 10% fat diet, if not just for the main reason that it tastes like cardboard.
TT,
As a point, it’d be best to point out the studies themselves instead of the people who are quoting them. (Mind you…very few people are going to read them anyway).
BTW, I agree with Thunder’s point earlier that there are studies to support points on both sides of each argument. I also believe that two equally “good” studies in an area can yield contrasting results. It is most often a difference in methodology or statistical analysis that is responsible for the differences.
HAHA you called morg neil. i see it too actually…
in regards to the low test, this past week was finals week so all i did was eat and stay up til dawn studying. my sexdrive was non-existent but for me lack of sleep is really the determining factor. i’ve also been out of the gym lately due to a shoulder injury so i can only go 2x a week just to do legs, so this may account for my lethargy as well
Cycomike, the same observation has been made by Lyle McDonald in working with BBs dieting down for competition.
Do I gather that you feel that low T levels and low dietary fat intake are not related in any way? I would be interested in your thoughts on the subject, on why that is the case.
Cyco, I’ll go check it out. Thanks!
In epi studies there seems to be a relationship between saturated fats and testosterone.
But the experimental data is rather varied so no real conclusion can be drawn. like if we go back to some early work, Hamalainen E, Adlercreutz H, Puska P, Pietinen P. Diet and serum sex hormones in healthy men. Steroid Biochem 1984;20:459-64 They compared people from a noraml diet of 40% fat(P:S ratio 0.15) to a diet of 25% fat (P:S ratio 1.22)
But, while there is a reduction in test and free test, you cannot assume its directly from the fat or P:S ratio perse, becuase there was more changed in the diet than just fat and P:S ratio. Was it the protien, was it the carbs, was it the fat, was it the p:s ratio? doesnt show much. And from memory i cant remember how htey tracked foodintake/calories. Looking at the newer article from Volek and Kraemer that you posted earlier, is interesting in that they looked at it in resistnace training. But it was only observational, so its results are not as strong as an experiemental trial.
Acute studies are varied as well, there is one that showed a high fat (57% calories) acutely depressed T (Meikle AW et al. Effects of a fat-containing meal on sex hormones in men. Metabolism: Clinical & Experimental 1990;39:943-6)
Chronic studies are just as varied, which makes it harder to draw conclusions from. a lot of the supposed evidence for saturates/testosterone levels are based around epi studies, which cannot draw a true conclusion (cause/effect)
Looking at the only factor of dietary fat rather optimistic considering the vast quantities of other factors that may have something to do with it. (ie, are people who have chronic high fat intake also high in vitamins/minerals involved in hormone metabolism)
And then there the fact that there isnt a true idea of a biological metablism, and nothing taking into account negative feedback mechanism to maintain test levels within the bodies desired setpoint…
It may work, but unless you are taking multiple blood samples and controlling your variables extremely, there isnt any way of knowing if its having an effect. And then protien intake and carb intake can potentially have an influence (shows more consistency than fat itself) and even then, if somebody is dieting, leptin will have an overall influence on hormone levels in the end anyway, so you are fighting a losing battle.
[quote]New research has confirmed the importance of dietary fat for anyone wanting to build muscle faster. Researchers from Pennsylvania State University analysed the effects of different nutrients on testosterone levels. Because testosterone and muscle growth are connected, they were trying to establish which types of diet would be most effective at raising testosterone.
While the researchers found a strong link between protein and testosterone (highlighting the importance of getting enough protein in your diet), they were also surprised to find a connection between dietary fat and testosterone.
In other words, as fat in the diet dropped, so did testosterone! Obviously, if you’re training to build muscle, low testosterone levels will slow down your progress.[/quote]
[quote]Dietary influences on testosterone…
Recent research has revealed a number of important facts about the influence of diet on hormone levels. For one, studies have established that a positive correlation exists between dietary fat and testosterone levels in men.
This does not mean that eating more fat results in higher testosterone levels, but it is clear that a low-fat diet can lower testosterone levels.
A study conducted at Penn State University and published in 1997 in the Journal of Applied Physiology, helps clarify the relationship between dietary fat and testosterone.
In that study, subjects eating a moderate fat diet exhibited higher testosterone levels than subjects eating low-fat diet.
More importantly, the Penn State researchers showed that the effect of dietry fat on testosterone levels depended on the kind of fat consumed. Specifically, they found that monounsaturated and saturated fat raise testosterone levels, but polyunsaturated fat does not.[/quote]
I had to chime in on this thread again. It is becoming quite the interesting debate.
I still feel the important issue here is not the actual raising of T levels with fat consumption, but making sure we are at our optimal level and not suppressing them.
Saturated fat consumption seems to be a big player in this goal of limiting suppression of T levels during diet. This being the primary fat source that most people seem to cut from their diet while trying to lean up it could be a problem.
It is dependent on the individual. That is why this whole fat intake issue came up anyhow. It was simply to make sure that it was known that the right amounts of each type of fat need to be consumed, and not to ignore the importance of saturated fat.
Phill
Kinetix, of course you you agree with my quote; I got it from you.
I was also thinking about this Morg/NeilG thing lately. Oddly similar styles/recommendations.
Neil/Morg quite similar, odd yes. HMMM?
But is it really worth wasting the time to even think about?
Phill
That quote that you provided is from the Volek/Kraemer paper (mentioned earlier as well), its observational, so while you can correlate things to each other, you cannot assign cause and effect.
Its a nice paper tho
Terry, I was commenting on Neil’s idea that flat out raising fat intake will help this individual when clearly it isn’t as simple as that. Neil uses his fat argument for absolutely everything, from raising GH and test levels, to curing cancer. He rarely discusses quantities, he just mentions that you need more of it. Always more. More organ meat, more lard, more butter. Always.
cycomiko
Sorry to have over looked that. My fault.
CeeGee…
I know your last comment was directed toward TT and not me, but I felt it was worth comment, and a very good point.
I also think that the point taken should from this whole fat debate isnt one of an absolute need to raise the intake of fat, be it saturate/poly/mono, what have you. It should be one of realizing that fat intake does have a direct effect on T levels, and that it is one area to make sure to look @ if one T has dropped. Making sure you are getting enough in the right amounts.
Phill
I think that everyone caught the wrong ship at the harbor.
How low are your carbs? If they’re really low, it’s probably no wonder that you have really low energy levels and sex drive.
Try the T-dawg 2.0 guidelines, and see if that fixes it.
Dan “Don’t know much 'bout fat metabolism” McVicker
[quote]and that it is one area to make sure to look @ if one T has dropped.[/quote] and this is the area that the origonal poster is assocating low sex drive = low testosterone.
While test is related in hte whole sex drive area, it isnt the sole determinant (emotions, cortisol, other things blah blah blah)
Get a blood screen done, and then repeat it regularly.
I generally find sexual drive to be a function of sleep and carbs. I agree with Dan, try upping the carbs 50 g a day.