My Experience On the Anabolic Diet

Nutrition
7602

[quote]ovalpline wrote:
labikes wrote:
Guys I am going crazy already. I have been doig the AD for a few months already. Currently weigh at 220 with 14% bodyfat, goal is to reach under 10 percent. I have been doing 1 carb reload every fourteen days to speed up fat loss. Currently doing the Waterbury method training and full body circuits followed by 25 minutes of hiit cardio and also doing hiit cardio on off days for 40 minutes. My protein intake is 220 grams per day and 150 grams of fat, carbs under 30 grams. My question to the vets is since I am getting enough protein is my cardio prohibiting me from getting to under 10%, should I discontinue the cardio? Please fellas any help would be appreciated. Any suggestions to modifying any of my diet or training? I know I will get more because I will not give up and will keep on working at reaching my goal but any help from my fellow tnation brothers will be greatly appreciated.

I would recommend following Thib’s thread: http://www.T-Nation.com/tmagnum/readTopic.do?id=1898266&pageNo=0#1898414

I would also recommend reading his article called refined physique tranformation.

I saw that Sasha posted something quite good for you. However, I have to disagree with him on one count: the leptin issue.

If you are 14% bodyfat, leptin ain’t a problem for you. As such, you don’t need 300-400 grams of CHO every 5 days.

My advice is to take a page from Thib in his thread and stay low carb throughout the week and have one cheat meal on either saturday or sunday.

Also, exercise more. As Berardi would say, “people are too concerned with calories in and not concerned enough about calories out.”

Soooo… putting it together: 1.5 grams of protein per pound of LBM and .5-.7 grams of fat per pound of LBM per day, exercise more, and on sat or sun, have a meal that doesn’t comply with the “rules”.[/quote]

Lots of good stuff here so you have a choice. I have followed the one cheat meal a week program and it did yield good results however it stalled for me after 5-6 weeks. Also, given that you are going two weeks between loads at the moment, and you are exercising intensely, I worry about muscle loss and metabolic down regulation. People who chronically diet, and train hard for many days a week, tend to risk metabolic damage and adrenal fatigue.

The reason I like the program I listed is the variation in calories is very high in that you drop your calories quite low (as in 600-800 cals of resting requirements) with a spike every 5 days. Your body is in constant flux which is good.

Up to you mate but leptin, in my opinion, is extremely important in regulating fat loss and other hormones - which is why libido shoots up on carb loads.

Cheers,
Sasha

PS. With regards to fibre intake, there are loads of studies that link fibre intake with increased fat loss so I would ensure you are getting up to 40 grams a day

7603

[quote]hockeyroom28 wrote:
About 3 weeks in and I have a big concern…

On my 2 weekend carb ups, I went pretty much over the top and ate a lot. I plan to cut it back to 36 hours or less, as I am trying to cut. My concern is, I am not looking leaner at all. If anything, I look softer and maybe a little fatter. I eat around 2000-2200 cals per day, consisting of eggs, cheese, steak, hamburger, cold cuts, salad, protein shake. I am 5’10, 170-175 lbs, and workout 5 days a week. How can I start getting cut? Thanks![/quote]

Just in case this got lost in the conversation, really interested to hear what people think about my AD experience so far, thanks.

7604

[quote]SashaG wrote:
Lots of good stuff here so you have a choice. I have followed the one cheat meal a week program and it did yield good results however it stalled for me after 5-6 weeks. [/quote]

At the point where you stall, it is then appropriate to have a full day carb-up/“cheat” day. As Joel Marion has discussed, it only takes 12-24 hours to reset leptin and other hormones.

Note: Thibaudeau and Berardi disagree with Marion on the hormones that are being adjusted on a cheat day. It seems that Marion targeted leptin as the hormone that is manipulated with his “Cheat to Lose Diet” because people simply wanted a mechanism/reason for the diet’s success. While that’s not to say that leptin isn’t an issue at all, both Berardi and Thibaudeau have said that leptin is really only an issue in the extremely lean and those with faulty leptin receptors (these people tend to be very obese).

This is overly caustic. Those who experience muscle loss, metabolic down regulation/metabolic damage, and adrenal fatigue tend to be people who are in absolute caloric deficits rather than relative caloric deficits.

What does that mean to the OP? Restrict calories, but don’t starve yourself! At least 10 calories per pound, and start at 13.5 or so per pound and gradually work downward. Here’s the other thing, the more you exercise, the less you have to restrict calories! G-flux, anyone?

This is absolutely true.

7605

[quote]hockeyroom28 wrote:
hockeyroom28 wrote:
About 3 weeks in and I have a big concern…

On my 2 weekend carb ups, I went pretty much over the top and ate a lot. I plan to cut it back to 36 hours or less, as I am trying to cut. [/quote]

Technically, you are already doing that. Saturday morning through Sunday evening = 36 hours. Here’s the thing, you don’t carb-up gauged by time, but rather how your body is reacting. End the carb-up when you begin to smooth out. Your other option is to restrict the time to one day (but still gauge by how you look).

Make your workouts more effective? Really, I don’t know… and here’s the thing: most guys in the gym have no idea how to lift weights. Most people just kind of throw the weights around because they’ve never been taught how to lift appropriately for muscular development. These people will never look good… and I hate to say it, but at 5’10" and 170 pounds and not cut, you simply don’t have the muscle mass to look cut.

Sooo… fix your carb load situation. And concentrate on building muscle as opposed to lifting weights. I think your body fat will come in line. This will take time though.

There is no immediate solution. This is why bodybuilding and the AD alike are called lifestyles.

7606

thanks ovalpline

7607

[quote]ovalpline wrote:
SashaG wrote:
Lots of good stuff here so you have a choice. I have followed the one cheat meal a week program and it did yield good results however it stalled for me after 5-6 weeks.

At the point where you stall, it is then appropriate to have a full day carb-up/“cheat” day. As Joel Marion has discussed, it only takes 12-24 hours to reset leptin and other hormones.

Note: Thibaudeau and Berardi disagree with Marion on the hormones that are being adjusted on a cheat day. It seems that Marion targeted leptin as the hormone that is manipulated with his “Cheat to Lose Diet” because people simply wanted a mechanism/reason for the diet’s success. While that’s not to say that leptin isn’t an issue at all, both Berardi and Thibaudeau have said that leptin is really only an issue in the extremely lean and those with faulty leptin receptors (these people tend to be very obese).

Also, given that you are going two weeks between loads at the moment, and you are exercising intensely, I worry about muscle loss and metabolic down regulation. People who chronically diet, and train hard for many days a week, tend to risk metabolic damage and adrenal fatigue.

This is overly caustic. Those who experience muscle loss, metabolic down regulation/metabolic damage, and adrenal fatigue tend to be people who are in absolute caloric deficits rather than relative caloric deficits.

What does that mean to the OP? Restrict calories, but don’t starve yourself! At least 10 calories per pound, and start at 13.5 or so per pound and gradually work downward. Here’s the other thing, the more you exercise, the less you have to restrict calories! G-flux, anyone?

PS. With regards to fibre intake, there are loads of studies that link fibre intake with increased fat loss so I would ensure you are getting up to 40 grams a day

This is absolutely true.[/quote]

Ovalpine,

You are correct . . . we just are using different variations of the same methodology in troubleshooting fat loss.

ALso, I like your Scott Abel Cycle Diet reference with the absolute and relative deficits. The only struggle I have is that most people don’t know the difference between the two and in trying to prevent stagnation have a tendency to do more and eat less.

One thing I would say though is that the role of leptin is not completely understood at this point however it does influence many different functions in the body - especially those in regulating your BMR and thyroid function.As we learn more about its role, the better we can optimise for fat loss.

Anyway, all good stuff no matter which way you look at it. I just don’t like restricting carbohydrate intake for such long periods of time with high intensity training.

Cheers,
Sasha

7608

Hey folks…new to TN and I am really glad I found this thread. I am about to take my second run at the AD4PL and have a couple questions for the group. It seems like this is the place to go. Is there a draw back to cutting carbs and putting on lean mass? also I really enjoy eating vegetables.

I am a huge fan of Broccoli,cauliflower,carrots,tomatos and cucumbers. Are these to carb rich to include in my diet daily? if so I am not above getting rid of them if need be. Also does the Fat to protein ratio need to be as lopsided as recommended? I actually enjoy lean protein over not as lean? Just a couple of questions hopefully I can get some help with. Thanks

7609

[quote]SashaG wrote:
I like your Scott Abel Cycle Diet reference with the absolute and relative deficits. The only struggle I have is that most people don’t know the difference between the two and in trying to prevent stagnation have a tendency to do more and eat less. [/quote]

You caught the reference! Honestly, my hat’s off to you. I really, REALLY like Scott Abel’s work and after purchasing The Science Behind the Cycle Diet CD, I’ve realized how damn similar the Cycle Diet and the AD are.

In fact, I’ve had the most success on the AD when applying Cycle Diet principles. I’ve used Sundays as cheat days and I’ve used Sundays as clean carb-up days (in this case, coupled with CHO PWO as well). And, to be honest, although the cheat days can occasionally put me on my ass for the day, I had fantastic success with them.

In terms of similarities in the diet, first and foremost, Scott and Dr. D recommend that people stay well below 10% body fat (a fact that few people seem to consider when on the AD). And this is for good reason. We can talk about insulin sensitivity, glycogen depletion, leptin, and all other sorts of hormones, but really it’s the confluence of EVERYTHING (hence the AD and the Cycle Diet are LIFESTYLES!) that enables a supercompensation effect that maximizes muscle mass and body composition.

I really don’t want to get preachy… so I’ll stop there :slight_smile:

It’s truly an exciting topic. No doubt.

Hey, I won’t kid you, my workouts are easier in the beginning of the week than the end.

7610

whats up guys. I’ve been on the ad for around 5 months and have loved it ever since. My problem is there were days during the holidays where i took the carbup too long. On christmas for example, i ate everything that was served because i couldn’t resist the foods. It wasn’t on the weekend.

Also i went out of town for new years and ended up taking the carb up for two extra days. Even today i ended up eating a bunch of peanut butter in a jar, so i know i want way over the 30g limit. So what i want to know is do i have to do the 12 day induction phase again? Also i usually start my carb up on friday nights at around 7-8 and going until sunday night. Is this okay?

7611

[quote]ADfreak wrote:
whats up guys. I’ve been on the ad for around 5 months and have loved it ever since. My problem is there were days during the holidays where i took the carbup too long. On christmas for example, i ate everything that was served because i couldn’t resist the foods. It wasn’t on the weekend.

Also i went out of town for new years and ended up taking the carb up for two extra days. Even today i ended up eating a bunch of peanut butter in a jar, so i know i want way over the 30g limit. So what i want to know is do i have to do the 12 day induction phase again? Also i usually start my carb up on friday nights at around 7-8 and going until sunday night. Is this okay? [/quote]

You would be best suited to do so yes.

Cheers.
Sasha

7612

ADfreak, to echo what sashaG said, I think there would be no harm in doing the 12 days straight again to absolutely make sure. I cant see nothing bad coming from it if you’ve already been on the diet for 5 months so its not like you wouldnt be able to function with a full 12 days of no carbs. Thibs did 18months of no carbs (albeit him not being on the AD). Might even boost your body comp too!

7613

Ovalpine- Scott’s stuff is where it’s at. I have the Science Behind the Cycle Diet DVD and his Dietary Principles mp3. Both are excellent. I think the DVD is a bit pricey because you can get almost all of the same information by reading his forums and the summary of his presentation here on T-Nation somewhere. However, there isn’t really a price for education.

I use his principles with the AD and the results are simply fantastic. Energy is great throughout the week and it is a guilt-free Saturday or Sunday. And if I’m looking to drop a bit of extra fat for a specific occassion, I might eat clean with a single cheat meal or just eat clean for the entire day. It’s really much more flexible than people think.

-Zed

7614

[quote]zed962 wrote:
Ovalpine- Scott’s stuff is where it’s at. I have the Science Behind the Cycle Diet DVD and his Dietary Principles mp3. Both are excellent. I think the DVD is a bit pricey because you can get almost all of the same information by reading his forums and the summary of his presentation here on T-Nation somewhere. However, there isn’t really a price for education.

I use his principles with the AD and the results are simply fantastic. Energy is great throughout the week and it is a guilt-free Saturday or Sunday. And if I’m looking to drop a bit of extra fat for a specific occassion, I might eat clean with a single cheat meal or just eat clean for the entire day. It’s really much more flexible than people think.

-Zed [/quote]

I agree as I’ve read a bunch of Scott’s stuff as well as having seen the Science DVD. The funny thing is if you read DiPasquale, Poliquin and Abel they are all advocating the same things. I actually fundamentally believe that once you’ve reached the point where your body is primed for supercompensation (this is similar to adaption in Dr.D’s stuff but in a calorically restricted sense) then altering body composition is a simple matter of calorie level manipulation.

Anyway, as Cosgrove says, 90% of the time coaches agree with one another but it’s the 10% of the things we decide to focus on. You have to listen to your body and find what’s best. Trial and error and keep on training.

Cheers,
Sasha

PS. I’m currently doing Scott’s leg routine that he wrote about and F**** ME! That is intensity.

7615

could someone clear this up for me.
i know that i count the carbs obviously, but do i subtract the fiber in ANY FOOD from the carbs, to give me total carbs?

eg if thers 10grams of carbs in a veg or any other food and 5 grams of fiber do i subtract the fiber from the carbs to get the total carbs (5), or just count all the carbs and not subtract the fiber?

If i minus the fiber from the total carbs i can begin to have a small bowl of high bran cereal (extremely high fiber and low-moderate carbs)
Cheers.MA

7616

[quote]zed962 wrote:
Ovalpine- Scott’s stuff is where it’s at. I have the Science Behind the Cycle Diet DVD and his Dietary Principles mp3. Both are excellent. I think the DVD is a bit pricey because you can get almost all of the same information by reading his forums and the summary of his presentation here on T-Nation somewhere. However, there isn’t really a price for education.

I use his principles with the AD and the results are simply fantastic. Energy is great throughout the week and it is a guilt-free Saturday or Sunday. And if I’m looking to drop a bit of extra fat for a specific occassion, I might eat clean with a single cheat meal or just eat clean for the entire day. It’s really much more flexible than people think.

-Zed [/quote]

I agree as I’ve read a bunch of Scott’s stuff as well as having seen the Science DVD. The funny thing is if you read DiPasquale, Poliquin and Abel they are all advocating the same things. I actually fundamentally believe that once you’ve reached the point where your body is primed for supercompensation (this is similar to adaption in Dr.D’s stuff but in a calorically restricted sense) then altering body composition is a simple matter of calorie level manipulation.

Anyway, as Cosgrove says, 90% of the time coaches agree with one another but it’s the 10% of the things we decide to focus on. You have to listen to your body and find what’s best. Trial and error and keep on training.

Cheers,
Sasha

PS. I’m currently doing Scott’s leg routine that he wrote about and F**** ME! That is intensity.

7617

[quote]SashaG wrote:

I agree as I’ve read a bunch of Scott’s stuff as well as having seen the Science DVD. The funny thing is if you read DiPasquale, Poliquin and Abel they are all advocating the same things.[/quote]

Well Abel’s actually not an advocate of fat + protein during the week, carb up on the weekends. His strategy (in layman terms) is low CAL week followed by a day or two of high CAL. His clients still eat carbs (such as rice cakes, as an example) during the week.

Just felt like it was necessary to mention that. And that’s not
to say he’s AGAINST low carb, high fat…but that his strategy typically includes carbs during the week.

7618

[quote]ontothenext wrote:
BillO21 wrote:
When I took just fish oil and no flax I would get hungry in a hurry. When I added the flax it lasted a lot longer. You may take more fish oil or fat from EVOO than I did so hopefully it will work for you.
bill

It’s not fiber that fucks with one’s T-levels, it’s the flax in particular. I think the V-diet calls for less than I am taking - with the 4 shakes I am downing 8 TBSP’s of a mix of fish and EVO oil, depending upon the day.

And what is this big craze about fiber anyway? Fiber is needed to push out the crap that doesn’t belong in your gut in the first place. If your processed food and carbs intake is negligible, then you don’t need much fiber either. Carnivores in the wild eat very little grass at times when they crave during famines. Maybe a small amount of berries I can see. Clean up your version of the anabolic diet and you won’t need to stuff yourself with flax, grass, or any other type of laxative. [/quote]

The flax won’t fuck with your T-levels. This is because the phytoestrogen in flax is a low level mostly benine variety. It is much better that this estro bind to your receptor cells than a much more potent estro molecule found in say milk or soy or plastic etc.

Bottom line = don’t worry about flax meal/seed.

-chris

7619

[quote]Avocado wrote:
ontothenext wrote:
BillO21 wrote:
When I took just fish oil and no flax I would get hungry in a hurry. When I added the flax it lasted a lot longer. You may take more fish oil or fat from EVOO than I did so hopefully it will work for you.
bill

It’s not fiber that fucks with one’s T-levels, it’s the flax in particular. I think the V-diet calls for less than I am taking - with the 4 shakes I am downing 8 TBSP’s of a mix of fish and EVO oil, depending upon the day.

And what is this big craze about fiber anyway? Fiber is needed to push out the crap that doesn’t belong in your gut in the first place. If your processed food and carbs intake is negligible, then you don’t need much fiber either. Carnivores in the wild eat very little grass at times when they crave during famines. Maybe a small amount of berries I can see. Clean up your version of the anabolic diet and you won’t need to stuff yourself with flax, grass, or any other type of laxative.

The flax won’t fuck with your T-levels. This is because the phytoestrogen in flax is a low level mostly benine variety. It is much better that this estro bind to your receptor cells than a much more potent estro molecule found in say milk or soy or plastic etc.

Bottom line = don’t worry about flax meal/seed.

-chris[/quote]

thanks for clearinng that up because id hate to hinder myself with somethin i go through box after box

7620

[quote]Whey Man wrote:
SashaG wrote:

I agree as I’ve read a bunch of Scott’s stuff as well as having seen the Science DVD. The funny thing is if you read DiPasquale, Poliquin and Abel they are all advocating the same things.

Well Abel’s actually not an advocate of fat + protein during the week, carb up on the weekends. His strategy (in layman terms) is low CAL week followed by a day or two of high CAL. His clients still eat carbs (such as rice cakes, as an example) during the week.

Just felt like it was necessary to mention that. And that’s not
to say he’s AGAINST low carb, high fat…but that his strategy typically includes carbs during the week.

[/quote]

Yup . . . you are right. Scott also goes much longer between cheats/carb loads as well. He recommends pushing hard dieting to the point where the body is close to an absolute deficit which, in my opinion, needs the guidance of a coach.

I actually like Poliquin’s dieting approach mixed with Scott’s training. Both, by the way, are hugely influenced by Dr. D.

Anyway, sorry for the hijack and back to the AD.

Sasha

7621

Any answer on my previous fiber question?