What supplements are people taking with this diet, like which Whey, etc? Are any of you taking the supplements sold by Di Pasquale?
[quote]Pauli D wrote:
I echo Chris & Tirib’s statements.
There are a couple ideas here:
- “Dabbling” with the AD will make you feel better…but it’s not really making you better
In other words -I think alot of the time when these ‘tweaking’ questions are posed it’s because the tweaking has already begun and folks are looking for reassurance. Not all the time…but I’m just say’n.
Cutting out carbs and readjusting to fat and protein will make you feel better…it just will. But unless you’re following the protocol you’re really missing out on the good stuff…the real benefits. i.e. Better Body Composition, Stable Energy, Increased Muscle Mass (if that’s your thing ;))
- The Metabolic Shift is the key
Without the shift -without Adaptation this can be, as Chris suggests, a “poor man’s carb-cycling” --only worse. You aren’t receiving the benefits of either the AD OR a true carb-cycling approach.
The Metabolic Shift followed by Full Adaptation (a few months later) will create a Remarkably Different YOU!
Your body will really work differently…no…really, it will!
Now you may not like it.
The AD may not be for you.
Perhaps you’re looking for the benefits it offers but the whole thing seems like a chore -too much like work. That’s okay.
There are certainly other approaches that yield fantastic results in their own right.
The AD takes time and patience…and really, you kinda have to enjoy the foods too. Otherwise I just don’t see someone ‘settling into it’ and doing well.
jus’ say’n…
[/quote]
Agreed. There were a few times in the first three months when I REALLY wondered if this whole thing was such a great idea. Specifically, anerobic energy fluctuations. Some workouts just weren’t there, especially later in the week. It has now been well over a year since any of those issues have been around at all. There is NO WAY I could eat as much as I do on a conventional carb based diet without looking like a medicine ball with a face. That may be the greatest benefit for me. It’s easier to make lean gains while keeping excess fat from calling me home. I started eating probably a 500 calorie meal in the middle of the night a couple months ago and if anything I’ve gotten slightly leaner.
Pauli is completely correct when he says your body works differently. When fully fat adapted the whole bugaboo about fasted cardio does not apply for instance. HIIT is not necessarily your best bet anymore. Because of the huge availability of metabolic energy and insulin stability you are never worn out and have no carb induced crashes. The list goes on.
[quote]Pauli D wrote:
I echo Chris & Tirib’s statements.
There are a couple ideas here:
- “Dabbling” with the AD will make you feel better…but it’s not really making you better
In other words -I think alot of the time when these ‘tweaking’ questions are posed it’s because the tweaking has already begun and folks are looking for reassurance. Not all the time…but I’m just say’n.
Cutting out carbs and readjusting to fat and protein will make you feel better…it just will. But unless you’re following the protocol you’re really missing out on the good stuff…the real benefits. i.e. Better Body Composition, Stable Energy, Increased Muscle Mass (if that’s your thing ;))
- The Metabolic Shift is the key
Without the shift -without Adaptation this can be, as Chris suggests, a “poor man’s carb-cycling” --only worse. You aren’t receiving the benefits of either the AD OR a true carb-cycling approach.
The Metabolic Shift followed by Full Adaptation (a few months later) will create a Remarkably Different YOU!
Your body will really work differently…no…really, it will!
Now you may not like it.
The AD may not be for you.
Perhaps you’re looking for the benefits it offers but the whole thing seems like a chore -too much like work. That’s okay.
There are certainly other approaches that yield fantastic results in their own right.
The AD takes time and patience…and really, you kinda have to enjoy the foods too. Otherwise I just don’t see someone ‘settling into it’ and doing well.
jus’ say’n…
[/quote]
Agreed. There were a few times in the first three months when I REALLY wondered if this whole thing was such a great idea. Specifically, anerobic energy fluctuations. Some workouts just weren’t there, especially later in the week. It has now been well over a year since any of those issues have been around at all. There is NO WAY I could eat as much as I do on a conventional carb based diet without looking like a medicine ball with a face. That may be the greatest benefit for me. It’s easier to make lean gains while keeping excess fat from calling me home. I started eating probably a 500 calorie meal in the middle of the night a couple months ago and if anything I’ve gotten slightly leaner.
Pauli is completely correct when he says your body works differently. When fully fat adapted the whole bugaboo about fasted cardio does not apply for instance. HIIT is not necessarily your best bet anymore. Because of the huge availability of metabolic energy and insulin stability you are never worn out and have no carb induced crashes. The list goes on.
Ughhhhhhhhhh anyone else get bad stomach aches and upset stomachs on this diet? I’m on day 7 and I feel like shit sometimes. Its usually when I down more olive oil or heavy whipping cream than normal.
I (slightly) question both cardio contentions, though I see the line of reasoning. Fasted cardio will probably still hit some muscle compared to a meal a few hours after a smaller meal, but I understand that it’ll almost certainly hit less here, and HIIT is vastly superior to conventional cardio regardless (conditioning purposes, mostly, though the protein sparing will still apply to some degree).
On another note, I have to say that I never really questioned whether or not it was working. The first five days of the induction phase had me feeling really bouncy, then I apparently crashed and was extremely grumpy for about three days, though my indications actually came after it happened (mum told me I was acting a little grumpier than usual, and I had a dream about running wild in a pasty shop; the guy who recommended the AD after keeping track of his progress for a few weeks said that his dream was about eating an entire pizza, and both of us felt AMAZING from day after the dream onward). Once that finished, I had a bit of a weird situation with the ketosis as I worked out the kinks of how I was eating, but when I got those sorted out, I felt…well, yeah. Amazing. Never had the bowel issues either.
In terms of not questioning it, I guess it kinda helps if you take everything you hear with a scientifically-inspired grain of salt. After seeing everyone in my health and fitness class immediately dismiss a multi-million dollar study on the effect of dietary fat as just ‘bad science’ without even reading the study, I really started questioning the whole thing, and after my 10th-grade precalc teacher introduced me to Mercola’s site, I really started to think that the whole ‘fat kills you’ thing was a pile of thinly-disguised bullshit. Since I didn’t have to suspend disbelief when reading the AD ebook, it was fairly easy to make the rational decision that this was at the very least a hell of a lot better than any alternatives I’ll have until college, which was when I planned to go paleo. I still plan to go paleo, actually, but I think that the fact that the AD/NHE concept being one of the few dietary ideas that actually meshes with the paleolithic diet is a very strong argument DiPasquale’s favor. I have every intention of attempting to maintain both simultaneously as soon as I reach the freedom to do so.
[quote]FE_FrEaK wrote:
Ughhhhhhhhhh anyone else get bad stomach aches and upset stomachs on this diet? I’m on day 7 and I feel like shit sometimes. Its usually when I down more olive oil or heavy whipping cream than normal.[/quote]
I have read most of the thread and this is my first post. I have been on the diet for about 6 weeks now. There is a lot of good stuff in this forum.
Anyway FE_FrEaK to address your problem I noticed if I ate a lot of oil or fat all at once I would feel really sick for a couple of hours. For me about 3 Tablespoons or more (I ate some bacon fat straight plus the 1lb of bacon to get calories). I read about that happening to other people too. Maybe that is what is happening to you. Other than that happening I feel awesome on the diet and never tired when on low carb. I hate doing carb-up weekends cause I feel so tired and slow, after a meal I want to sleep. I don’t want to go back to my old lifestyle but my friends all think I am crazy as does my vegetarian girlfriend.
Shane
[quote]ssteward wrote:
I have read most of the thread and this is my first post. I have been on the diet for about 6 weeks now. There is a lot of good stuff in this forum.
I hate doing carb-up weekends cause I feel so tired and slow, after a meal I want to sleep.
Shane[/quote]
Hi Shane
Likewise, first post - and been on the AD for seven weeks now.
I think one of the biggest challenges concerning carb days is the tendency to use it to binge. I usually only do one day on carbs (12-14 hours) over the weekend for this reason.
I’ve also invested time - and money - on more supplements since on the diet and have to say all in all i’m in the best shape of my life.
[quote]ssteward wrote:
I have read most of the thread and this is my first post. I have been on the diet for about 6 weeks now. There is a lot of good stuff in this forum.
I hate doing carb-up weekends cause I feel so tired and slow, after a meal I want to sleep.
Shane[/quote]
Hi Shane
Likewise, first post - and been on the AD for seven weeks now.
I think one of the biggest challenges concerning carb days is the tendency to use it to binge. I usually only do one day on carbs (12-14 hours) over the weekend for this reason.
I’ve also invested time - and money - on more supplements since on the diet and have to say all in all i’m in the best shape of my life.
[quote]FE_FrEaK wrote:
Ughhhhhhhhhh anyone else get bad stomach aches and upset stomachs on this diet? I’m on day 7 and I feel like shit sometimes. Its usually when I down more olive oil or heavy whipping cream than normal.[/quote]
Just for curiousity’s sake…
What was sustaining you before you took the AD aproach?
Where were your kcals coming from?
Fats have more than twice the kcals as carbs. And with fat cals making up 60% of your kcal intake…you’re actually eating less volume to reach your kcal goals
-do you see what I mean?
Some folks get GI distress when they eat healthier foods (ala Dave Tate, et al) -so that could be a problem.
I tend to think the GI distress is a function of the GI actually “working” at digestion rather than allowing garbage-type foods to simply ‘pass on through’ -but that’s only my opinion.
You might be ‘trying too hard’ to get your kcals in
-that too could be a problem.
Beef, eggs, cheese, walnuts, green veggies…these should be your staples. Mix it up with fish, poultry (dark & white meats), veal etc…
Of course EVOO & heavy creams are a great addition…but we shouldn’t be relying on them as food sources.
Whole foods are where it’s at.
Relax…just eat
peace
[quote]Pauli D wrote:
FE_FrEaK wrote:
Ughhhhhhhhhh anyone else get bad stomach aches and upset stomachs on this diet? I’m on day 7 and I feel like shit sometimes. Its usually when I down more olive oil or heavy whipping cream than normal.
Just for curiousity’s sake…
What was sustaining you before you took the AD aproach?
Where were your kcals coming from?
Fats have more than twice the kcals as carbs. And with fat cals making up 60% of your kcal intake…you’re actually eating less volume to reach your kcal goals
-do you see what I mean?
Some folks get GI distress when they eat healthier foods (ala Dave Tate, et al) -so that could be a problem.
I tend to think the GI distress is a function of the GI actually “working” at digestion rather than allowing garbage-type foods to simply ‘pass on through’ -but that’s only my opinion.
You might be ‘trying too hard’ to get your kcals in
-that too could be a problem.
Beef, eggs, cheese, walnuts, green veggies…these should be your staples. Mix it up with fish, poultry (dark & white meats), veal etc…
Of course EVOO & heavy creams are a great addition…but we shouldn’t be relying on them as food sources.
Whole foods are where it’s at.
Relax…just eat
peace[/quote]
Yeah i would suggest he just not do that (too much EVOO etc at one time). Plus your fat digesting enzymes are not likely up to the job quite yet so keep it real for a bit and keep the fats not to excess. I bet you really don’t need the extra whipping cream. Im sure you can find that fat in more easily acceptable solid food. sausage is good. so is fish.
-chris
[quote]jonnosferatu wrote:
I (slightly) question both cardio contentions, though I see the line of reasoning. Fasted cardio will probably still hit some muscle compared to a meal a few hours after a smaller meal, but I understand that it’ll almost certainly hit less here, and HIIT is vastly superior to conventional cardio regardless (conditioning purposes, mostly, though the protein sparing will still apply to some degree). >>>[/quote]
Unless you are absolutely Clarence Bass ripped, adipose stores will be used during fasted cardio once you’re fully adapted. I’m not saying people shouldn’t do hiit, but it WILL chew up your glycogen stores, especially in the legs, whereas steady state cardio will dip almost immediately into body fat because that’s what your metabolism now prefers. The point I’m making is that the standard conventional wisdom isn’t as simple once you’re adapted.
Black Cat Wrote
FFB,
Congrats on the fat loss and maintanence of muscle. What do you mean when you say “I still am making no testosterone naturally”??? Is your total testosterone low or is it just your free testosterone? I ask because HRT (hormonal replacement therapy) for each of those respective afflictions is completely different. I recommend you visit the HRT forums under “The over 35 lifter” section of T-Nation. This thread is pretty good among others:
http://www.T-Nation.com/...200966&pageNo=6
KSman checks in on the HRT threads and is extremely knowledgeable in these matters and I defer to him.
As for the refeeds, it is always better to produce your own test naturally, or the AD can complement HRT therapy. If you can reach adequate levels using the principles of the AD, you can even abandon the test injections. Again it all depends on the nature of your shortfall. If it is a case of not enough production (total test is low) or elevated estradiol and/or SHBG (sexual hormone binding globulin) levels which impact your free testosterone level (while maintaining a respectable total testosterone level).
If you are not producing an adequate total testosterone level, then you will need supplemental testosterone to raise your total level to an adequate level. You will also have to monitor your free testosterone level and ensure that it is also maintained at an adequate level.
Free T is the usable form. You can have all the total T in the world, but if it is aramotized (lost due to elevated estradiol or SHBG) your free-T could still be in the sewer and you will feel like crap, have great difficulty putting on lean body mass, lack energy, be depressed, have low libido, poor morale, display apathy, lack drive - you get the picture.
Even with T injections raising your level of free T, you may well require an AI (anti-aromatase) to counter the probable increase in estradiol and possibly SHBG levels. They tend to rise in tandem with free T. Also, shedding weight is great as elevated body fat promotes elevated estradiol and thus lower free T.
All this to say consult with guru KSman or a good endocrinologist or age management doctor. BTW, those (doctors knowledgeable on this issue) are few and far between… You can get pointed in the right direction through the forums I mentioned.
Godspeed
BalackCat
Total T - In the Crapper
Free Test - In the Crapper
Thanks for the suggestions on the over 35 forum, I have read alot over there, too much sometimes! My Doc seems to be good so far, he is on T himself that helps keep his head in the game. He is bringing me along slowly with alot of bloodwork and has said we will probaly add ai later, but we will go slow and add as we need it.
I am after peoples opion on the carb days, do I need them for other reasons than just a test boost? I know it won’t give me much boost, i already give myself that boost that day. But, is there another benefit I am not thinking about? Do I really need the gylcogen in my muscles for a few days? I can train on the days when I am drained. I am after fat loss right now, I am still blaming fat for my low T or high E since I let myself become a fat ASS, I want to drop down under 10% BF then try to get off the test and see if I can make any naturally again. I am a dreamer I know!
[quote]jonnosferatu wrote:
I (slightly) question both cardio contentions, though I see the line of reasoning. Fasted cardio will probably still hit some muscle compared to a meal a few hours after a smaller meal, but I understand that it’ll almost certainly hit less here, and HIIT is vastly superior to conventional cardio regardless (conditioning purposes, mostly, though the protein sparing will still apply to some degree). >>>[/quote]
Unless you are absolutely Clarence Bass ripped, adipose stores will be used during fasted cardio once you’re fully adapted. I’m not saying people shouldn’t do hiit, but it WILL chew up your glycogen stores, especially in the legs, whereas steady state cardio will dip almost immediately into body fat because that’s what your metabolism now prefers. The point I’m making is that the standard conventional wisdom isn’t as simple once you’re adapted.
[quote]FFB WannaB wrote:
Total T - In the Crapper
Free Test - In the Crapper
Thanks for the suggestions on the over 35 forum, I have read alot over there, too much sometimes! My Doc seems to be good so far, he is on T himself that helps keep his head in the game. He is bringing me along slowly with alot of bloodwork and has said we will probaly add ai later, but we will go slow and add as we need it.
I am after peoples opion on the carb days, do I need them for other reasons than just a test boost? I know it won’t give me much boost, i already give myself that boost that day. But, is there another benefit I am not thinking about? Do I really need the gylcogen in my muscles for a few days? I can train on the days when I am drained. I am after fat loss right now, I am still blaming fat for my low T or high E since I let myself become a fat ASS, I want to drop down under 10% BF then try to get off the test and see if I can make any naturally again. I am a dreamer I know!
[/quote]
Your doc is wise to go step by step with frequent blood work and of course feedback from you since how you feel is most important. You won’t require AI until your estradiol level is elevated. Yours is a production issue since your total t is “in the crapper” as you put it. Until your blood levels of total T are in the upper ref range it is impossible to fine tune your therapy. Once that is accomplished, the next step is to gauge free T, estradiol, and SHBG levels. Once your free t is good, then you should start feeling good too - either right away or it may take a while to cascade through and for you to fully benefit from the corrected level. It can take a couple of months if your system has been deprived for a long while. Finally, once your free t is in the zone, you will have to continue to follow-up on blood work periodically to ensure that estradiol or SHBG don’t start rearing their ugly heads and ruining your new found vim and vigor. If they do, you will require an aromatase inhibiter to maintain a good free t level.
Another aspect is testicular atrophy. When the boys are no longer producing, they tend to shrivel up get synched up in a tightened sac. If that bothers you, you can use hCH (human chorionic gonadotropin) to stimulate them and possibly contribute some extra T to the equation. Your doctor or KSman can counsel you further. Have you contacted KSman?
Your doc is wise to go step by step with frequent blood work and of course feedback from you since how you feel is most important. You won’t require AI until your estradiol level is elevated. Yours is a production issue since your total t is “in the crapper” as you put it. Until your blood levels of total T are in the upper ref range it is impossible to fine tune your therapy. Once that is accomplished, the next step is to gauge free T, estradiol, and SHBG levels. Once your free t is good, then you should start feeling good too - either right away or it may take a while to cascade through and for you to fully benefit from the corrected level. It can take a couple of months if your system has been deprived for a long while. Finally, once your free t is in the zone, you will have to continue to follow-up on blood work periodically to ensure that estradiol or SHBG don’t start rearing their ugly heads and ruining your new found vim and vigor. If they do, you will require an aromatase inhibiter to maintain a good free t level.
Another aspect is testicular atrophy. When the boys are no longer producing, they tend to shrivel up get synched up in a tightened sac. If that bothers you, you can use hCH (human chorionic gonadotropin) to stimulate them and possibly contribute some extra T to the equation. Your doctor or KSman can counsel you further. Have you contacted KSman?[/quote]
I have not contacted anyone besides my doc, he is fairly sharp, been researching on my own quietly for a long time now. I will at some point, venture out for more advice on the test issue, but am fairly sensitive about it right now, it was a pretty big step for me mentally! I am still concentrating on diet, my goals are closer and with test coming up I seem to have more energy to train more. That should keep the results coming, I am as focussed as ever now on my diet. I am thinking about pulling the carb up back from 24 hours to 1 or two carb up meals now though, even thinking one carbup per two weeks as per social engagements until I get that bf% down there. Think I would be sabotaging myself?
[quote]Pauli D wrote:
Relax…just eat[/quote]
Bingo.
I’ve complicated this diet so many times before… heck, I even transitioned off for about 4 months.
Always, always KISS. Like Pauli said, “Relax… just eat.”
Hi Everyone,
Just starting the AD now. Previously I had pretty much been trying to follow the 7 healthy habits and just wanted to follow a certain nutrition plan. Initially I had planned on a low carb approach but someone on T-Nation introduced me to AD. I read the book and it seems pretty interested and well-founded. So today is day one of the AD and also the first day that I am following any type of formal workout plan.
I am currently following Chad Waterbury’s 10x3 for fat loss. What do you guys think of this choice? As for weekday nutrition, do you think it would suffice to follow the same plan I had for following a low carb plan (and as suggested by someone on the forum)? What I have is… (This is with my daily schedule in mind… class → gym → work)
Meal 1:
4 whole eggs
~1 tbsp Olive Oil
1 Cup Celery
(Multivitamin, 3 fish oil caps)
PWO:
2 Scoops Whey Protein Powder
5 oz Chicken Breast (Would steak work here too or no?)
Meal 2:
5 oz Chicke Breast
1 Cup (~30g) Spinach
1-2 tbsp Olive Oil
(Multivitamin, 3 fish oil caps)
Snack:
1/4 Cup Walnuts
Meal 3:
5 oz Beef
~1 tbsp Olive Oil
1 Cup (~90) Broccoli
Before Bed:
1 Scoop Casein Protein
This yields about 25 grams of carbs, 210 grams of protein and 130-140 grams of fat. I weigh about 185 pounds and am around 15-18% BF and am about 5’ 7". Thats about 2400 Calories and according to standards for the diet is low but I feel really full (I guess I haven’t bee eating enough when i started eating cleaner). Any suggestions on improvements? My goal on the AD is to lose BF and gain some muscle/strength. I also bought a fiber supplement (Fiberchoice) and have some vitamin C (Going to use as an antioxidant) but don’t know when I should be taking this as the some of the vegetables I eat supply fiber.
By the way, the number i just grabbed from the top of my head since I am at work right now but they won’t differ by much.
Also, I hadn’t thought of it yet… but any advice on the carb up days?
(Hope it is OK to post here instead of starting my own thread… seems as though everyone else is)
[quote]sic wrote:
I know I could browse through here and find the answer, but I’d rather be lazy and take a short cut.
I understand not counting carbs from fibrous or cruciferous veggies, but which veggies do count?[/quote]
You’ve seemed to have gotten stepped on…
Technically, any sugars count, so the carbs (less the fiber) in a vege like carrots or peas count. But really, if it’s green and leafy it’s good - you really can’t eat so much that it makes a difference. Peas should be counted as per food labels because their sugar content is higher and can make a difference. Carrots and onions - yes, but less so. Folks on the AD tend to stick to greens, traditionally.
Let me say I <3 the Anabolic Diet. I’ve gotten better results with this than any other dietary strategy and I’m gonna’ continue doing it for the foreseeable future. When people ask me how I’m making progress they still don’t believe that all I did was cut the carbs and up the fat. The top pic is from 10/12/07, bottom pic is 1/4/08.
[quote]Black Cat wrote:
Best calorie dense foods with 0 CHO:
- EVOO (extra virgin olive oil - first cold pressed in dark bottle or tin if possible)
- Fish Oil: liquid concentrate is often more cost effective than caps. Look for high EPA & DHA content. 4 to 3 ratio epa/dha respectively is best
- Cheese: check labels (may be constipating depends on your metabolism)
- heavy cream (35%)
- Nuts: Raw walnuts, pecans, almonds are best and have few carbs after fibre (try and keep track of carbs on these)
- Natural Almond Butter: Very few CHOs and delicious
- Fibrous veggies: Lots of broccoli to fill a big guy up. There are different opinions on how many carbs to count but I don’t think it is really a problem unless you eat more than 5 medium size heads a day.
- Flaxseed for fat & fiber (not many carbs, but I am currently investigating whether flax lignans contribute to reduced T levels as some studies indicate. Poliquin recommends ground flax. Maybe not a good idea to overdo.)
- All meats
[/quote]
Thanks for that list and all your posts in this thread. I was missing 1/3 of foods above but no more.