So basically just eat a lot of carbs but keep your caloric rance around the same? I wouldn’t think you would have to do percentage to the exact if you just eat simple things like cereal and english muffins. Those already have a good percentage of each.
[quote]shoelessjones wrote:
natural59 wrote:
shoelessjones wrote:
steelerfan wrote:
shoelessjones wrote:
not sure what i should be feeling… it’s day 12… energy is back to normal… weight has stayed about the same… have been in the 2800-3300 calorie range for 12 days… fat intake consistently at 60-61%…my weight is 190… but i feel more soft around the middle than before i started… strength and stamina are good though… will wait until saturday morning to carb load…
does how i feel sound about right? i am not quitting… just skeptical still.
thanks in advance.
I’m also on day 12 as of today… I’m 185 and I have been keeping my cals. in the same range as you… I feel normal also but when I look in the mirror I appear more lean…
I had 1 day in the gym that was just awful but that was only the 5th day into AD, so not sure if that was a crash or not… I was eating fairly low carbs before I started this, keeping carbs to a 3hr window after workouts and I was only lifting 2-3 days a week,… I’m not starting my carb up until next thursday due to schedule conflicts… My scale weight is about the same also !!
ok… let me know how you continue to feel and progress. after reading some of these latest threads, after i carb load this weekend, i am going to do two things… cut my calories down to about 2000-2200 and change the ration to 55/40/5 during the week. i am going to try this for 3-4 weeks and see how it goes.
any other thoughts from anyone else are much appreciated.
thanks again in advance.
Remember, the purpose of becoming fat adapted is to get your body to burn fat for energy, instead of CHO (and ketones). So if you want to lose weight on the AD, you have to cut your fat consumption before (in order that) your body will burn your own adipose.
I think you can do this 2 ways: 1). Cut your fat intake during the week, to about 50%, 2). Cut your fat intake on your CHO-Load days to about 30%.
So, after you are fully fat adapted, the 5-day CHO-depletion would look like, 50F/45P/5CHO, and the 24-36 hour CHO-Load, 60CHO/30F/10P (per Dr. D), or 50CHO/30F/20P (per DH), or 60C/30P/20F (my preference). Just remember, CHO are protein sparing, so you don’t have to worry about ingesting large quantities of protein on these days. And combining large percentages of CHO and Fat is a recipe for fat gain.
Since fat is calorie dense, this will greatly reduce your caloric intake. In other words, just slightly reduce your fat consumption during the week, and drastically reduce it on CHO-Load days, and the calories (and adipose burning) will take care of itself.
However, I don’t think that reducing your weekly fat intake (during CHO depletion days) is recommended until you are fully fat adapted. Until then, just be sure to reduce your fat intake on you CHO-Load days. I’d say, give it a few months, then experiment with the 5-day depletion ratio.
(Parenthetically: I believe that the distinction in the AD diet over others, which speak in terms of ketosis, like Atkins, is, Dr. D says that if you are excreting ketones in your urine, you are in a state of ketosis, and, therefore, NOT fat adapted. According to Dr. D, ketosis is very catabolic (destructive/muscle destroying), and is to be avoided.
On the other hand, if you are fat adapted, there will be no ketones in your urine, BECAUSE your body is efficiently burning fat for fuel, i.e., it doesn’t need to produce ketones for fuel, OR the few that it does produce (like to fuel the brain), are efficiently burned up.
Furthermore, it is the 30g. prescription of CHO that keeps you out of ketosis during the week, and keeps your body fat adapted (along w/increased fat consumption), while the CHO-Load days are the intended anabolic (constructive/muscle building) phase of the AD diet.)
Someone else can chime in here, but I don’t think that it is EVER advisable to drop below 50% fat consumption during CHO depletion days. The issue here is one of fat for energy, in the face of CHO depletion, and keeping your body fat-adapted, and out of ketosis (according to Dr. D) during the week. But I’d say, just experiment with it, and if your energy levels drop during the 5-day CHO depletion days, just increase your FAT (not CHO) consumption.
Also, during your CH0 loads, be sure that most of your CHO come from starches, like, breads/grains, rice, pastas, potatoes (Russet, Red, White, Sweet Potatoes/Yams, etc.), oatmeal, etc.
These will refuel you muscles with much need glycogen, but simple CHO/sugar will go straight to your liver, and too much of this will lead to fat gain.
-james
all makes sense and i understand this is not a black and white plan… i will have to try different things over time… so i appreciate your comments.
is it easy to test for ketones in the urine? if so, how? i know i smell the ammonia in my urine (NH2).
[/quote]
Well, it’s black and white, but we’re not all either black or white, so everyone’s physiology is a little different.
You can test for the presence of ketone bodies using “keto-sticks,” which you should be able to find at your local drug store.
-james
[quote]KingTAH wrote:
So basically just eat a lot of carbs but keep your caloric rance around the same? I wouldn’t think you would have to do percentage to the exact if you just eat simple things like cereal and english muffins. Those already have a good percentage of each.[/quote]
Not to mention sugar. Just depends on whether or not you are trying to lose adipose.
IMO, the percentages (give or take, of course), are just as important on the CHO-Load days, as when CHO depleting.
It is especially important to NOT ingest too much fat on CHO-Load days (Remember: FAT + CHO = ADIPOSE), and although CHO are protein-sparing, you must ingest enough protein to remain in an anabolic state. CHO-Load days are your most anabolic, so you want to maximize them, not think of them as “eat all I want, whatever I want” days.
Some sugar is okay, satisfy your cravings, but don’t overdo it, or it will be counter productive, imo.
-james
I’ve been on the AD for a month now. I rarely weigh myself or take measurements of any kind. I took some measurements recently… I’m 5’10 - 195lbs ~10-12%BF. But I usually use the mirror to gauge my progress. I do feel leaner than when I started… The diet is fun and easy and I really enjoy this style of eating. My question is to those who believe that they are fully fat adapted.
How many of you have reached the single digit BF% on this diet? And if so, what parameters did you follow (more cardio, played with macros)? I know that extreme leanness is not the goal for some people but I have to assume that the majority of the people out here are trying this to gain mass and get super lean.
~bigsincebirth
Quick question for the vets of this thread…
I am just finishing up my 1st week after the induction period (2nd carb up starts tomorrow).
I am planning on cutting. My current weight is 210.
Based on that, here is what I’m proposing:
210lbs x 12 = 2,520 kcal
1386 kcal from fat (154g)
This leaves 1,134 kcal. Subtracting the 120 kcal (30g) for non-fibrous carbohydrates, that leaves me with 1,014 kcal, or 253.5g of protein.
It’s my understanding from reading the ebook & this thread (I’m only on page 135 as of this post) that I want to keep my protein intake at .8-1g per lbs. so that my body becomes more proficient at burning stored fat, as opposed to burning the protein I’m ingesting.
Based on that, should I lower my overall caloric intake even further? I’m currently at about 15x. I have noticed my body seemingly getting slightly more defined (however I know it is still early on for me, in this diet). I am currently eating about 60-62% fat.
Is this something I should even worry about at this point? Should I just keep going along as is until I notice myself not really leaning out and then go into a cut? I’m sure a decent amount of the changes I’ve seen are water related.
Thank you.
For anyone who is trying to lean out! Based on the book and my brief experience. “Clarify this all you veterans!” I have found that lowering the calories, based on body weight, to almost bare minimum, for me thats about 1700-2000 at 220lbs. Increase the protein to .8-1g per lean body mass. For me thats at 160g. Keeping the fat at 80g with 80% of that coming from EFA suplements and 20% of Sat. fat.
And carbs at 20-30g with all the nec. fiber, has worked in decreasing body fat. I also am just going to do 36 hour carb up with mostly fruits and vegetables. But so far so good, body fat down from 28% to 23% in a week and a half, of course I have it to lose, so that may be it, but I’m gonna keep at it until I get to single digits.
[quote]natural59 wrote:
shoelessjones wrote:
natural59 wrote:
shoelessjones wrote:
steelerfan wrote:
shoelessjones wrote:
not sure what i should be feeling… it’s day 12… energy is back to normal… weight has stayed about the same… have been in the 2800-3300 calorie range for 12 days… fat intake consistently at 60-61%…my weight is 190… but i feel more soft around the middle than before i started… strength and stamina are good though… will wait until saturday morning to carb load…
does how i feel sound about right? i am not quitting… just skeptical still.
thanks in advance.
I’m also on day 12 as of today… I’m 185 and I have been keeping my cals. in the same range as you… I feel normal also but when I look in the mirror I appear more lean…
I had 1 day in the gym that was just awful but that was only the 5th day into AD, so not sure if that was a crash or not… I was eating fairly low carbs before I started this, keeping carbs to a 3hr window after workouts and I was only lifting 2-3 days a week,… I’m not starting my carb up until next thursday due to schedule conflicts… My scale weight is about the same also !!
ok… let me know how you continue to feel and progress. after reading some of these latest threads, after i carb load this weekend, i am going to do two things… cut my calories down to about 2000-2200 and change the ration to 55/40/5 during the week. i am going to try this for 3-4 weeks and see how it goes.
any other thoughts from anyone else are much appreciated.
thanks again in advance.
Remember, the purpose of becoming fat adapted is to get your body to burn fat for energy, instead of CHO (and ketones). So if you want to lose weight on the AD, you have to cut your fat consumption before (in order that) your body will burn your own adipose.
I think you can do this 2 ways: 1). Cut your fat intake during the week, to about 50%, 2). Cut your fat intake on your CHO-Load days to about 30%.
So, after you are fully fat adapted, the 5-day CHO-depletion would look like, 50F/45P/5CHO, and the 24-36 hour CHO-Load, 60CHO/30F/10P (per Dr. D), or 50CHO/30F/20P (per DH), or 60C/30P/20F (my preference). Just remember, CHO are protein sparing, so you don’t have to worry about ingesting large quantities of protein on these days. And combining large percentages of CHO and Fat is a recipe for fat gain.
Since fat is calorie dense, this will greatly reduce your caloric intake. In other words, just slightly reduce your fat consumption during the week, and drastically reduce it on CHO-Load days, and the calories (and adipose burning) will take care of itself.
However, I don’t think that reducing your weekly fat intake (during CHO depletion days) is recommended until you are fully fat adapted. Until then, just be sure to reduce your fat intake on you CHO-Load days. I’d say, give it a few months, then experiment with the 5-day depletion ratio.
(Parenthetically: I believe that the distinction in the AD diet over others, which speak in terms of ketosis, like Atkins, is, Dr. D says that if you are excreting ketones in your urine, you are in a state of ketosis, and, therefore, NOT fat adapted. According to Dr. D, ketosis is very catabolic (destructive/muscle destroying), and is to be avoided.
On the other hand, if you are fat adapted, there will be no ketones in your urine, BECAUSE your body is efficiently burning fat for fuel, i.e., it doesn’t need to produce ketones for fuel, OR the few that it does produce (like to fuel the brain), are efficiently burned up.
Furthermore, it is the 30g. prescription of CHO that keeps you out of ketosis during the week, and keeps your body fat adapted (along w/increased fat consumption), while the CHO-Load days are the intended anabolic (constructive/muscle building) phase of the AD diet.)
Someone else can chime in here, but I don’t think that it is EVER advisable to drop below 50% fat consumption during CHO depletion days. The issue here is one of fat for energy, in the face of CHO depletion, and keeping your body fat-adapted, and out of ketosis (according to Dr. D) during the week. But I’d say, just experiment with it, and if your energy levels drop during the 5-day CHO depletion days, just increase your FAT (not CHO) consumption.
Also, during your CH0 loads, be sure that most of your CHO come from starches, like, breads/grains, rice, pastas, potatoes (Russet, Red, White, Sweet Potatoes/Yams, etc.), oatmeal, etc.
These will refuel you muscles with much need glycogen, but simple CHO/sugar will go straight to your liver, and too much of this will lead to fat gain.
-james
all makes sense and i understand this is not a black and white plan… i will have to try different things over time… so i appreciate your comments.
is it easy to test for ketones in the urine? if so, how? i know i smell the ammonia in my urine (NH2).
Well, it’s black and white, but we’re not all either black or white, so everyone’s physiology is a little different.
You can test for the presence of ketone bodies using “keto-sticks,” which you should be able to find at your local drug store.
-james
[/quote]
and if i have ketones in my urine, then i need more carbs, yes?
well i meant… the ratios aren’t black and white when it comes to somewhere between 50-60% fat is going to work for me during the week… and around 30% fat on the weekends… that’s all.
thanks again for your comments! much appreciated!
[quote]AlphaDragon wrote:
Thoughts from anyone with more experience on the diet than me?
65% fat/day is WAY to high. Keep it at 60% max…if you’re dieting, keep it at 55%.
The AD is different from any other diet in that once fat adapted, it uses fat stores very efficiently for energy. Kinda like premium fuel, I suppose.
Your Cals are too high to be trying to cut up. I’m heavier than you are and I’m below 2000 almost daily.
In short…less cals (I’m talking 1750/day), and fix the macros to 55% fat, 40%Pro, 5% Cho, as I discussed a few posts ago.
Again, I’ve lost about 25 lbs in 12 weeks doing it this way. Weight train at least 3x/week (fullbody) with 2 days of GPP or HITT, or 5x/week (if doing a split routine, wiht perhaps one day of HIIT in there).
The AD works incredibly well if you do it correctly.
AD[/quote]
Thanks for the tip. I was starting out higher for the induction and thought i would keep it up for a few weeks to avoid carb cravings. i think I will take your advice though and drop the fat to 55-60%. I’ll also drop kcal by another 200 starting on Sunday (i’m doing a friday/sat carb up), and go from there. I’ll probably start to add in a little HIIT next week too to assist with adipose breakdown. Thanks again for the suggestions.
[quote]Clark Banner wrote:
For anyone who is trying to lean out! Based on the book and my brief experience. “Clarify this all you veterans!” I have found that lowering the calories, based on body weight, to almost bare minimum, for me thats about 1700-2000 at 220lbs. Increase the protein to .8-1g per lean body mass. For me thats at 160g. Keeping the fat at 80g with 80% of that coming from EFA suplements and 20% of Sat. fat.
And carbs at 20-30g with all the nec. fiber, has worked in decreasing body fat. I also am just going to do 36 hour carb up with mostly fruits and vegetables. But so far so good, body fat down from 28% to 23% in a week and a half, of course I have it to lose, so that may be it, but I’m gonna keep at it until I get to single digits. [/quote]
whats your workouts like?
Do you guys just use maintenance levels of creatine? 5g a day?
I’ve read about methods of super saturating the body with 20g of creatine for 3 days, and then taking 3 days off. Repeat, repeat, repeat… It’s supposedly supposed to produce some great results. Anyone heard of our tried?
Personally I don’t see the point in that. It’s always been my understanding that creatine is something that your body will easily release when it is in excess, and that it can really only functionally use around 5g per day.
Actually I asked DH the same question and he suggested normal amounts (maintenance level) of creatine has been shown to improve protein absorption.
AD
This guy makes a pretty compelling argument, tell me what you guys think after reading…
ive got a question, on the AD youre supposed to have a higher % of “caloric” fat intake vs protein, well if im taking in more protein in terms of grams does this matter as long as my calorie level of fat is higher than my calorie level of protein?
[quote]Disc Hoss wrote:
ketones become replaced by FFA’s and triglycerides as energy substrates. The base energy source is ATP. You can get it from CHO or you can get if from FFA’s. You’ll see fewer and fewer ketones as you adapt further. I canont stress enough, the strong ketogenic response is an intermediate phase. Many folks, including some who should know better, stop here and make all sorts of specualtions and conclusions during this initial phase. Mauro needs a megaphone to announce, YOU MUST NOT ASCERTAIN EFFECT UNTIL ADAPTATION IS COMPLETE!
Doc addresses many of these questions on his Metabolic Diet site once you’ve bought the book and have a login. Suffice it to say, don’t get wrapped up in inconsequential minutia. Grasp the mechanics of the diet, understand it’s not a low card diet but rather a timed CHO diet and forget what the arm chair experts tell you.
With people like DiPasquale, Poliquin, Forsythe, Alessi, Gironda, Faigin, and countless others, consider yourself in good company.
best,
DH
Tiribulus wrote:
Day 5 here. No drastic changes to report in any area since I started actually. I do sweat a bit more it seems. I did also grab a boxxa Ketostix from CVS and they show traces of ketones so I guess at this point that’s good. No energy issues. Not even during morning jogging(after some EFA’s and green tea). Today will be Abs, back and bi’s, first workout since day one so I’ll see how that goes.
On the topic of ketones. Are we supposed to move through ketosis eventually? Also does the whole idea of ketosis apply only to exogenous, dietary fats or is the utilization of adipose fats accomplished through ketosis as well? If both of the above are true, and they may not be, how do you ever move out of ketosis? Or is ketosis defined as only when there are sufficient levels to be detected in urine and utilizing ketones for energy goes on in a balanced state without actual ketosis.
I’ve been through the book and can’t seem to find answers this specific, but there are some implications.
Thanks,
–Tiribulus->[/quote]
On 8-18 of last year I asked this question and got this response from Disc Hoss who’s word I would take without hesitation over anybody else’s when it comes to this subject.
[quote]LiveFromThe781 wrote:
ive got a question, on the AD youre supposed to have a higher % of “caloric” fat intake vs protein, well if im taking in more protein in terms of grams does this matter as long as my calorie level of fat is higher than my calorie level of protein?[/quote]
You may have derived this (percentage of caloric consumption) from several of my posts. Admittedly, I have not read the book, but this info was gleaned from the posts of DH (Disk Hoss). At least, that was my conclusion, based on his comments.
I believe this to be accurate, however, he often spoke of nutrient consumption in terms of calories, grams, and as a percentage.
For example, from page 23:
[SNIPPET]
Disk Hoss wrote:
Hold up there pardner. All terms are relative. For fat loss start out at around 12x bodyweight. If you are 200lbs then the following is in order:
@2400 cals.
250g Protein (1000kcal) (a bit extra)
30g CHO (120kcal)
140g Fat (1260kcal)
This is lower fat than the maintenance phase and mass phase but your primary source of cals is still from fat. “Low” is a relative term here.
[/SNIPPET]
You’ll notice that in the excerpt above, he refers to cals as a percentage of total caloric intake, i.e., fat calories in the example exceed those from protein, but by weight, protein exceeds fat.
I just don’t want to lead anyone astray, if I’ve misinterpreted his comments, so it would be advisable to hear from someone who has actually read the book, and can quote a more definitive reference in this regard.
-james
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Disc Hoss wrote:
ketones become replaced by FFA’s and triglycerides as energy substrates. The base energy source is ATP. You can get it from CHO or you can get if from FFA’s. You’ll see fewer and fewer ketones as you adapt further. I canont stress enough, the strong ketogenic response is an intermediate phase. Many folks, including some who should know better, stop here and make all sorts of specualtions and conclusions during this initial phase. Mauro needs a megaphone to announce, YOU MUST NOT ASCERTAIN EFFECT UNTIL ADAPTATION IS COMPLETE!
Doc addresses many of these questions on his Metabolic Diet site once you’ve bought the book and have a login. Suffice it to say, don’t get wrapped up in inconsequential minutia. Grasp the mechanics of the diet, understand it’s not a low card diet but rather a timed CHO diet and forget what the arm chair experts tell you.
With people like DiPasquale, Poliquin, Forsythe, Alessi, Gironda, Faigin, and countless others, consider yourself in good company.
best,
DH
Tiribulus wrote:
Day 5 here. No drastic changes to report in any area since I started actually. I do sweat a bit more it seems. I did also grab a boxxa Ketostix from CVS and they show traces of ketones so I guess at this point that’s good. No energy issues. Not even during morning jogging(after some EFA’s and green tea). Today will be Abs, back and bi’s, first workout since day one so I’ll see how that goes.
On the topic of ketones. Are we supposed to move through ketosis eventually? Also does the whole idea of ketosis apply only to exogenous, dietary fats or is the utilization of adipose fats accomplished through ketosis as well? If both of the above are true, and they may not be, how do you ever move out of ketosis? Or is ketosis defined as only when there are sufficient levels to be detected in urine and utilizing ketones for energy goes on in a balanced state without actual ketosis.
I’ve been through the book and can’t seem to find answers this specific, but there are some implications.
Thanks,
–Tiribulus->
On 8-18 of last year I asked this question and got this response from Disc Hoss who’s word I would take without hesitation over anybody else’s when it comes to this subject.[/quote]
There is also this snippet (pg. 9 of this thread) from an interview with Dr. D:
[SNIPPET]
NM: You’d think that it would make sense to have protein available while under stress, but a lot of people look at protein just for repair when resting. The thinking is that only carbs and fat are used during exercise.
MD: That’s bullshit! The whole business about gluconeogenesis and ketosis is very mixed up. A lot of these so-called “experts” don’t really have their facts straight. They read a couple of studies, do a test or two, and draw a conclusion. I don’t know everything, but when I research something, I like to do as many studies as possible. In my book on proteins and amino acids, I had over 1,700 references. Even that only skims the surface, but at least it narrows down the variables. My new book should have over 2,100 references! This is the way to approach the effectiveness of a product or a diet plan?not to go off halfcocked. I’m working on several formulations that I believe will be effective for several sports-related applications. I may put out my own line of sports supplements called “Coaching Solutions” which will only be products that I believe in. I’m also thinking about putting out an “Anabolic Diet” supplement line. They may not work for everyone, but all I can say is that “this is the best that I can do?this is what I take.”
NM: That was the principle which Tim and TC used when putting together the Biotest line. Tell me, you were one of the first proponents of the high-fat/low-carb diet. What’s the main difference between the Anabolic Diet that you developed and the presently popular Ketogenic Diet?
MD: When I wrote the Anabolic Diet, I wasn’t trying to present an academic hypothesis. I wanted to write about something that would work. These days, there seems to be a lot of emphasis on ketosis, but it’s all pretty useless. Staying in a ketogenic state basically means that you haven’t adapted to the diet. If ketones are being excreted in the urine (which is how you determine ketosis) by using “keto-sticks,” then you’re not utilizing ketones for energy very efficiently. Someone who is optimally using fat for fuel should not have ketones in their urine.
NM: Whoa, let me back this up for a second. So what you’re saying is, if one were efficiently using ketones for energy and lipolysis on a carb depleted diet…it shouldn’t produce a state of ketosis?
MD: That’s correct. If you’ve adapted fully to the diet.
NM: So it’s not preferable to be in ketosis if the objective is fat loss?
MD: That’s right. This is where I differ from everybody else and why the Anabolic Diet is so effective where others are not. Ketosis is very catabolic! First of all, the Anabolic Diet keeps you at 30 grams of carbs a day, five days a week. That keeps you out of ketosis, but the body begins to adapt to using fat for fuel. On the weekend, you can eat as many carbs as you like. That’s the anabolic phase, but the body is still in a fatburning mode. Once there’s a spillover of carb calories to fat storage, after no more than 48 hours, you go back to 30 carbohydrate grams a day. Basically, this is meant to be a diet that can be followed easily. Who wants to wake up at night to eat or spend each hour of the day watching exactly how many calories you eat? What’s interesting is that I’ve found that triglyceride levels rise on the days when high carbs are ingested.
[/SNIPPET]
-james
[quote]Filmmakerr wrote:
whats your workouts like?
[/quote]
I hit the weights 3x/per week hitting every muscle group. About 80% of max 3 x 12 for everything with a very controlled negative. I’ll do 30-60 minutes of cardio with my HR reaching at least 150-165 bpm.
Then I have a real intense kickboxing session twice a week. This will consist of a lot of explosive plyo drills (i.e. sprawls, jumps, and a lot of bag work) then spar for half an hour. I’m thinking of taking a yoga class for relaxation and flexibility. That’s about it. Should I do more?
Only 2 days left, and I guess I hit my “Dead” on the 3rd day, because I haven’t felt anything as bad since. It was pretty bad, I felt like I was fainty and not able to comprehend much, almost like your a sleep and then some one wakes you up real fast and makes you do some intricate task, but you can’t really function and all you wanna do is go back to sleep.
Yeah, that’s how I felt. It probably hit me a lot sooner because I was so used to high carbs in my system.
But, I’m pretty sure I found my “Holy Grail” I have already got leaner, and lost some weight. After the induction phase is through, I’m gonna get much stricter on the ratios and calories. I’m going straight into cutting! All the advice has helped “GREATLY” so I will keep reading and popping in once in a while to update on my progress!
[quote]natural59 wrote:
<<< There is also this snippet (pg. 9 of this thread) from an interview with Dr. D: >>>[/quote]
The whole interview is in the archives some where. I read it a while back. Definitely good stuff.