Some pics from tonight’s workout.
I tried my best to get a sequence shot of a Snatch Pull…hard to do with the self timer though…these are taken over the course of a few lifts.
3
4
5
And one of me being stupid with the special effects features of my new camera.
Sweet pics, IC. That’s some man-sized weight you’re throwin’ around there! Keep up the good work, bro.
I beleive I’m in the middle of a giant anabolic diet crash right now, all I want to do is lay around, which I’m doing. My first super strict week is dundy, I’m on day 8, Saturday I carb up… I need to make a wish list even though I haven’t craved a dang thing.
Also, I was gonna go workout today, but I’m thinking I’ll have to skip it because I don’t have ANY energy right now.
So I’m ‘crashin and burnin’ so to say, when does this crash end, a day or two… I’m too lazy to search for it in the binder or on this thread, I want my energy back…
talk to me goose
I have just completed my sixth week of the AD and I have had a mild crash each week with the exception of this week. I would usually crash on Thursday or Friday, but not this week. On Thursday and Friday I consumed 4 tablespoons of Olive oil with each meal which is double what I take Monday thru Wednesday. I think this helped with not crashing and I actually had a lot of energy and was in a great mood both days. I think I am figuring this thing out.
This weekend I have kept my carb load to 36 hours which it might be too early to tell, but I think 36 is optimal for me. My scale weight is about the same as when I started, but my body fat is down. All of my training partners have been telling me that I am looking big and that my midsection is looking good. They’ re all now wanting to borrow the AS. In six weeks I will start my first cycle of Carbolin 19 and six weeks after that I will pull the Junior 198 Raw American deadlift record.
Joe
I bit the bullet and bought the ebook and have been trying to follow the guidelines for about a week now.
However, I’m having serious concerns about the amount of saturated fat I’m eating and also not being able to eat much fruit. I am thinking in order to keep this going long term I will need to switch to move my carbs up to about 80-100 g.
This is still a huge reduction compared to the 500+ g I was consuming on my other 60% carb diet. I’m a pretty lean guy already with goals of lowering body fat % a few pts and improving my body’s carb metabolism. Do you think this type of diet still works with raised CHO levels or is it an all or nothing type of thing?
[quote]CU AeroStallion wrote:
I beleive I’m in the middle of a giant anabolic diet crash right now, all I want to do is lay around, which I’m doing. My first super strict week is dundy, I’m on day 8, Saturday I carb up… I need to make a wish list even though I haven’t craved a dang thing.
Also, I was gonna go workout today, but I’m thinking I’ll have to skip it because I don’t have ANY energy right now.
So I’m ‘crashin and burnin’ so to say, when does this crash end, a day or two… I’m too lazy to search for it in the binder or on this thread, I want my energy back…
talk to me goose[/quote]
I haven’t really had one in a few weeks, but when I do, it usually just lasts about a day. Tomorrow I betting you’ll feel fine.
Shout out to the IC! I’m loving the decor and the do-rag, bro! That’s a gym. No elipticals, stairmasters or fitness T-shirts.
But dude, put some weight on the bar next time you take photos. Those pretty colored barbie plates just take away from you imposing presence. ;-).
DH
Haha…us O-lifters and our colored plates.
Ok just a few things before my post.
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I have never ever said I am in favor of Bodyopus. I along with you agree bodyopus is a piece of crap. But…
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I do not think the anabolic diet is the BEST CUTTING DIET. I think it is good for people like PL’ers who need some control to their diet to make weight but aren’t looking for abs.
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I’m sorry if all of my posts come off as asshole’ish. It is just the way I write. I’m sorry, I have to spend fucking 5 hours a day in a legal office typing up letters in archaic language just to seem political correct and by the time i get home I don’t want to capitalize everything and say “well it is my opinion” or the like. Now…
[quote]Disc Hoss wrote:
You are correct in one thing. You don’t understand the “hypocritical” stance of myself and the originator of the diet. You keep the CHO this low NOT to attain ketosis, but rather to drop glucose levels low enough to trigger significant fat burning AND protein sparring. [/quote]
What? How does this trigger fat-burning? I am just wondering.
[quote]Disc Hoss wrote:
If/when you ever fully adapt to the diet then ketosis is NOT a reality anymore. Want to know what happens when I whiz on a ketostick? Nothing. My blood glucose hovers around 90-95. Ketosis is nowhere to be found. Since I have ADAPTED, my body is no longer in the metabolic purgatory of ketosis. With the large quantities of CHO we ingest on the load and the minimal daily value, we keep just out of ketosis. We’re like a plane skimming the ground. We don’t land, we hover. [/quote]
here is the quote from me where I guess you drew this from… i know disc has said that you dont need to be in ketosis on this diet but then again i dont get why the fuck staying under 30 grams is so blessed critical…seems hypocritical but whatever. I guess then an AD’er has to keep his CHO’s low so that he “promotes fat-burning and protein-sparing” which I still don’t understand why that would occur just because of a low CHO intake. If you can explain it I will believe you, I just do not get why I should believe that.
[quote]Disc Hoss wrote:
Dan “I’m wrong 99% of the time” Ducahine demanded NO CHO on mon, tues, and wed (?). He was focusing on forcing you into a rapid ketosis condition by eliminating ALL CHO, with concommitant liberal usage of VS and Metformin to plummet blood sugar. [/quote]
see point #1.
point #2
[quote]Disc Hoss wrote:
You get your glycogen depleted during the weekdays. [/quote]
this relates to point #2 also. It isn’t that I don’t think this thing doesnt WORK for fat-burning whatever, but I do think their are better options(Lyle McDOnald’s ultimate diet 2.0) for getting RIPPED UP. Now if you are just some MMA’er, PL’er whatever looking to make weight, yeah this is probably a more sane option. But I am currently not after just making weight, and you are not after a 6 pack, so of course we’re going to disagree :).
[quote]Disc Hoss wrote:
You get your glycogen depleted during the weekdays.This allows for an enhanced uptake of both glucose and amino acids into the muscle. [/quote]
Yes I agree, but just dieting alone is not OPTIMAL for glycogen depleting. By using something like UD2.0 you get into fatburning mode, whatever the hell we call that, much faster than by diet alone.
[quote]Disc Hoss wrote:
It is preferentially shuttled to the muscle after this scarcity it has experienced. We use this to trick the body into accepting more than normal amounts of various substances to trigger an anabolic response. Here AGAIN Duchaine has his focus wrong. He thought that the above conditions leading to “kinetic cellular expansion” was the golden boy. NO. That is a real benefit that has some value, but the real money is the HORMONAL cascade that the cyclical pattern sets in motion. To Duchaine it was all about ketosis->glycogen supercompensation. To Di Pasquale it is all about adaptation->hormonal maximization. Once you adapt then ketosis is not attained and neither should it be a goal. [/quote]
point #2
[quote]Disc Hoss wrote:
This whole fixation that causes people to miss the big picture reminds me of the training to failure controversy. It’s not necessary and should not be sought as it increases CNS demand. You can get “near” failure and still hit the necessary MU’s to derive the effect. Both of these dogmatic “needs” (training->failure and ketosis) are doing nothing but taking a good observation and coming to a bad conclusion.
[/quote]
I agree with you disc, I know ketosis isnt necesarry either. No arguement here.
[quote]Disc Hoss wrote:
Anyway, ketosis sucks after an initial break in period. It is counterproductive to BB’s and PL’s whose activity is centered around anaerobic exercise that is fueled by glycogen.
[/quote]
I agree with you mostly, but I do think that recovery is somewhat impaired by lack of CHO. and especially for a bodybuilder, whose sets last beyond the creatine phosphate energy production phase into the CHO oxidation or whatever phase where you need CHO i think IT IS NECESSARRY to have carbs for optimal training. Of course you can do it without…but everything i argue is for optimisssity(made up haha).
[quote]Disc Hoss wrote:
We drop down “close” to ketosis where we have the full benefits (once adapted) of using fat as THE premier fuel source. During this time the body holds stored glycogen like a fat cop does a donut. We use it ONLY for weight training purposes. [/quote]
Yes but if you have enough glycogen for a fairly high volume session(20 sets) then your blood gluclose levels have(IMO) to be above 100mg /dl or whatever the measurement is.
[quote]Disc Hoss wrote:
During this time insulin is low/healthy, thus it continues to do it’s job of nutrient transfer but won’t be able to deposit anything into fat very easily (unless you eat a freakin’ cow). Amino acids are sent to muscle as normal BUT and here is the real purpose, testosterone levels are elevated, GH is elevated (as it often operates in an antagonistic fashion with insulin), glucagon is bumped up for fat loss (not too much so), and neurotransmitters that allow for alertness are in ample supply and used. We have an anabolic cocktail going on right then NOT ketosis. The value of the ketostix are about as much as the urine you spill on them at this point. [/quote]
How are all anabolic hormones in a surplus if you’re in a caloric deficit. It just seems impossible, but maybe i should read the 1,800 studies listed in the AD.
[quote]Disc Hoss wrote:
Then as we load we derive the benefits of the mother of all insulin surges and have another fascinating ADAPTATION phenomenon happen, we get BOTH insulin and GH elevated during at least the first 24 hours of the load. [/quote]
and you get the mother of all insulin surges on other cyclical diets…like the ultimate diet 2.0
[quote]Disc Hoss wrote:
Yup, that’s right. Doc D has found that for the first day of loading at least, you are continuing to burn fat at a higher than normal rate and we can actually have GH and insulin working in tandem. This is normally not a possibility. The benefit and purpose is to wave your CHO to cause a hormonal cascade that allows for anabolic action during BOTH the low carb phase and the uptake phase. [/quote]
see above.
[quote]Disc Hoss wrote:
Try to offer comments and assistance instead of argumentative jabs. When you don’t understand something then say so, don’t come across as a jilted authority, bro. You’ll be taken more seriously and you’ll show you have a normal respect for the opinions/experiences of others. You can question me all you want, but you should familiarize yourself with the Metabolic Diet by Di Pasquale before you implicate him as ?hypocritical?. What you?ve been is HYPER critical You?ve got too much Lyle and Duchaine in your understanding.
This is the Anabolic Diet thread. We want growth. It is the best cutting diet too, but the key is muscle growth. We want the best of both worlds. The AD is just that.
Best,
DH
[/quote]
sigh
and i thought i would add here, everything i say and do is right, just for all you lurkers who are wondering haha.
I guess my question would be…if you don’t feel the diet is the best, then why are you here? I don’t like some of the training programs on this site, but I don’t actively seek out people and try to get them to not train using that program. Ok, the AD sucks balls, can we move on now? I just don’t see why any of us should bust our aforementioned balls to prove something to you.
Owen,
Dave Barr suggested to someone “Biochemistry Primer for Exercise Science” by Dr. Mike Houston in a thread somewhere, and I got it from interlibrary loan. I suggest you pick up a copy somewhere.
It has alot of pertinent information about the process of gluconeogenesis and oxidation of fatty acids. You kind of have to read between the lines, understanding what Dr. D. says about the differences in enzyme output on the AD. It is al supported in the reading, just sometimes not real aparent.
Basically, lowering CHO will increase glucose production from proteins and fats. Training will spur gluconeogenesis as well, because training seems to increase the threshold at which fat stops being the preferred fuel. Because intake of CHO also promotes oxidation of CHO, and the presence of lipids tends to increase lipolysis, low carbs and high fats would mean gluconeogenesis from lipids would tend to be supported. What I’m getting at is that from my reading I think it’s reasonable to think that after adaptation one would be able to sustain recovery from lipids and proteins alone, without being impaired by low CHO. “Adaptation” can probably be defined as the point of overcoming some threshold which promotes the output of enzymes and such that promote preferential fat oxidation. My guess is that enzymes (actually transport proteins?) needed to transport glucose and aminos into cells are also increased to help make up for insulin facilitated transport. Completely by the seat of my pants, I’d say the non insulin mediated glucose transporters would play an important role. On second thought, it would have to… Finally, research shows that fatty acids in fact inhibit the oxidation of glucose in favor of fatty acids. This seems to be a common theme, that consumption of any given macronutrient tends to increase oxidation of that macro.
Now, thinking about energy systems, according to Dr. Squat, it takes about 30 seconds to get out of the creatine phosphate cycle and get into glycolysis. I don’t know about you, but my sets rarely last this long. Now, if you’re doing sprints or something then that probably puts you squarely into glycolytic country. Remember though, that glycogen and blood sugar are similar but very different concepts. You can store glycogen, albeit not supercompensate, without alot of CHO. It is part of the body’s regulation of glycogenesis. This stored glycogen is debranched and split apart to make glucose that you use for fuel. Carbon skeletons from amino acids as well as intramuscular tryglycerides can also be used as fuel by working muscle. Because a dip in blood sugar will tend to increase fatty acid and protein oxidation, I would think a small dip wouldn’t be all that bad when adapted. Further, I think Dave Barr has implyed on threads around here that glycogen status isnt all that big of a deal. The reason being that glycogen will be replenished all on it’s own without any special effort from us.
Resting blood sugar probably won’t be affected by low CHO once adapted, due to the aforementioned mechanisms of gluconeogenesis. Being hyperglycemic would be bad, as it would tend to promote glucose burning, which would cause a crash from accelerated glucose oxidation without additional dietary CHO (in our weekday AD environment) or an increase in gluconeogenesis.
Also, read JB’s “new view of energy balance” article. We want to have a bunch of anabolic/anticatabolic hormones when hypocaloric because it will preserve muscle versus fat for gluconeogenesis. Remember that even though we are hypocaloric we are still “balancing” our energy needs, i.e. burning some substrate to meet our energy needs. This is going to predominantly be body fat stores if we set ourselves up for fat burning and to put our aminos to use as other than fuel. Dr. Houston writes that even a lean person has some 75,000 kcals of bodyfat hanging around.
Hope that’s coherent and correct me if I muddled up the underlaying science.
Our good CH has just taken you on a small excursion into the benefits and actions that occur upon adaptation. I’ve pounded this theme over and over. Adaptation, NOT intermediate stages that only last a few weeks OR that one continues to attempt to create with screwy application. Doc D looks at what happens when you re-wire yourself long term. Duchaine and Lyle continually did and do respectively, focus on the intermediary phases of adaptation. Reminds me of the info used to buck fat and protein out of favor from the 60’s.
A few studies that looked at SHORT TERM benefits from CHO loading on endurance athletes turned the whole bodybuilding world upside down. This info was erroneously applied to a new idea of optimal macro intake. Of course it took a few decades to find out that they looked at intermediary effects not long term adaptation to such high CHO.
Now we know they only found the benefits of a carb load NOT the benefits of a high CHO diet. You know what that is called? Good observation, bad conclusion.
That is what I mean about DanD and Lyle. They miss the forest for the trees. To them it is a cutting diet. NO. NO. NO. It can be a cutting diet, but it is SO much more. We don’t care about ketosis because you’ll burn plenty of fat without it, once you adapt. At that point you no longer play by the carb users rules. You are a differetn animal, and the research done in many studies no longer even applies to you the same as the rest of the world.
Like the GH and insulin example I gave. The two work in antagonistic fashion under normal circumstances. Therefore if you eat CHO you blunt Gh response. NOT on the AD. You get both humming for at least 24 hours simultaneously. We are DIFFERENT. Do you know how to prevent water retention? Drink more water. What ever the body has in abundance, it deems superflous and will make liberal use of. If it determines something is scarce, it’ll hold it for dear life. You burn fat by eating fat and you hold CHO in muscle by intermittent loads and then phases of “scarcity” so the body uses it very efficiently and burns fat liberally.
And once you get the CHO in your system, you store it like crazy in the muscle and liver. Your body becomes super stingy with it and you have plenty of it from the loading and the minimal intake each day. Where on earth do people think that 1000g of CHO goes when you load?? “Oh NO! What will I have to train with this week? I’m all out! I’m not eating CHO so I can’t fuel my workouts!” Come on. Your sitting on it as we speak. Your body is busting with glycogen. You’re still burning primarily FFA’s for at LEAST 24 hours of loading, so they aren’t used up there. The CHO is stuffing every crevice you’ve got. There is your necessary supply of glycogen for training. You don’t have to kill yourself with goofy depletions for a “recomposition rodeo” a la Duchaine. Why, because shifting the macronutrient ratio of CHO and fat to the levels on the AD will create an alteration in the krebs cycle that primes the body to burn fat and retain CHO.
Ketosis is a crude and unnecessarily drastic approach. It’ll kill your training and have less than optimal effects on your hormonal output. The benefit of an AR workout is just that…AR.
Now it will work for those who “must” have this depletion idea as a bedrock of their program. Fine. Lyle asserts that the AD is not good for gaining muscle. Have you seen the guy? What does HE know about muscle. Good grief, IC has more beef on one thigh than LM has in total. Duchaine even negatively commented on Lyles blog when he wanted to “cut up”. He never got ripped! Dude writes books on things like Bromocriptine that are hodge podge at best. This is an expert?! Show me the money, bro.
Tell that to Doc DiPasquale who won competition after competition at 8% bodyfat. He includes photos in the AS that are great. Tell IC. Tell me. I couldn’t bust 190 without getting getting a puffy look and eating enough CHO to want to nap more than train.
Now I’m 60 pounds heavier, my chest is 55", my shoulder circumference is 61", my arms are 20.5", and in about 3 weeks of dieting you can make out about 4 abs. A girl at work just commented on my calves (only 15.5") but it’s because they are muscular. They (DanD and Lyle) NEVER got big AND never got the big picture. You don’t want to screw around in the gray zone. Get adapted and get to growing without becoming a Lard-O.
Partial rant over.
Well done ConorH.
Best,
DH
[quote]conorh wrote:
Owen,
Dave Barr suggested to someone “Biochemistry Primer for Exercise Science” by Dr. Mike Houston in a thread somewhere, and I got it from interlibrary loan. I suggest you pick up a copy somewhere.
It has alot of pertinent information about the process of gluconeogenesis and oxidation of fatty acids. You kind of have to read between the lines, understanding what Dr. D. says about the differences in enzyme output on the AD. It is al supported in the reading, just sometimes not real aparent.
Basically, lowering CHO will increase glucose production from proteins and fats. Training will spur gluconeogenesis as well, because training seems to increase the threshold at which fat stops being the preferred fuel. Because intake of CHO also promotes oxidation of CHO, and the presence of lipids tends to increase lipolysis, low carbs and high fats would mean gluconeogenesis from lipids would tend to be supported. What I’m getting at is that from my reading I think it’s reasonable to think that after adaptation one would be able to sustain recovery from lipids and proteins alone, without being impaired by low CHO. “Adaptation” can probably be defined as the point of overcoming some threshold which promotes the output of enzymes and such that promote preferential fat oxidation. My guess is that enzymes (actually transport proteins?) needed to transport glucose and aminos into cells are also increased to help make up for insulin facilitated transport. Completely by the seat of my pants, I’d say the non insulin mediated glucose transporters would play an important role. On second thought, it would have to… Finally, research shows that fatty acids in fact inhibit the oxidation of glucose in favor of fatty acids. This seems to be a common theme, that consumption of any given macronutrient tends to increase oxidation of that macro.
Now, thinking about energy systems, according to Dr. Squat, it takes about 30 seconds to get out of the creatine phosphate cycle and get into glycolysis. I don’t know about you, but my sets rarely last this long. Now, if you’re doing sprints or something then that probably puts you squarely into glycolytic country. Remember though, that glycogen and blood sugar are similar but very different concepts. You can store glycogen, albeit not supercompensate, without alot of CHO. It is part of the body’s regulation of glycogenesis. This stored glycogen is debranched and split apart to make glucose that you use for fuel. Carbon skeletons from amino acids as well as intramuscular tryglycerides can also be used as fuel by working muscle. Because a dip in blood sugar will tend to increase fatty acid and protein oxidation, I would think a small dip wouldn’t be all that bad when adapted. Further, I think Dave Barr has implyed on threads around here that glycogen status isnt all that big of a deal. The reason being that glycogen will be replenished all on it’s own without any special effort from us.
Resting blood sugar probably won’t be affected by low CHO once adapted, due to the aforementioned mechanisms of gluconeogenesis. Being hyperglycemic would be bad, as it would tend to promote glucose burning, which would cause a crash from accelerated glucose oxidation without additional dietary CHO (in our weekday AD environment) or an increase in gluconeogenesis.
Also, read JB’s “new view of energy balance” article. We want to have a bunch of anabolic/anticatabolic hormones when hypocaloric because it will preserve muscle versus fat for gluconeogenesis. Remember that even though we are hypocaloric we are still “balancing” our energy needs, i.e. burning some substrate to meet our energy needs. This is going to predominantly be body fat stores if we set ourselves up for fat burning and to put our aminos to use as other than fuel. Dr. Houston writes that even a lean person has some 75,000 kcals of bodyfat hanging around.
Hope that’s coherent and correct me if I muddled up the underlaying science.
[/quote]
On the Dave Barr issue, he DID just show that glycogen replenishment is not a focus for the anaerobic athlete. The only real benefit from some post workout CHO is the insulin rise for Amino Acid (AA) engorgement.
Now you can achieve this with very little CHO and some fast protein source like hydrolyzed whey or AA’s. Doc D covers how to get enough of an insulin spike (independent of copious CHO) via specific supps to accomplish this. Perfect. All you need.
DH
Owen,
You’ve shown yourself a good guy. I appreciate that. I fully understand a little “tension” in a post sometimes and can “forgive” it easily enough.
Keep posting as you are clearly very bright. Just branch out and check out as much of Mauro’s stuff as you can. He’s got a great Q&A area. You have to make a single purchase of 25.00 or more once a year then you can have access to his stuff. Even get an email or two answered by him if he’s not too busy. I have a “direct line” but I do my best not to abuse it out of respect for his time.
Please don’t take any of my tones as derogatory on your age or understanding. I just like to see cordial exchanges that facilitate learning and are structured in a way that respects both idiots and geniuses alike. ;-). I’m sure you’ve heard of measure twice, cut once. Well sometime around your late 20’s you’ve eaten enough crow to adapt that to…listen/read twice, speak once. Spoken with a black wing still on my lip, bro. 
Like I said, I think you’re wicked smart for being a teen… so don’t let a little chop bustin’ discourage you. Just let it improve you.
Best,
DH
Hey Disc Hoss,
Great post, as always.
So for the benefit of the forum (especially those who are overwhelmed by 25 pages of awesome info) can you post your pre-post workout protocol for the AD adapted? I believe it was 40g isolate/hydrolyzed 30 mins pre, 25g FFAA’s immediately post, and a solid AD approved meal 30 mins later?
And check your PM’s bro!
Cheers,
Bryan