My Experience On the Anabolic Diet

[quote]kurmatt wrote:
Disc Hoss wrote:
I’ll get back to you, Kurmatt. Got a list of “free” veggies someplace on my computer. The right ones allow for ample intake.

Best,
DH

kurmatt wrote:
I see that DH mentions to eat a lot of veggies but doesn’t this conflict with staying below 30g CHO? Or are the veggies considered a fiber and not counted?
Matt

Hoss-
Appriciate it.
I find it difficult to find a comprehensive book or list of the nutritional breakdown of foods. Ever try to find out how many carbs are in a piece of sushi? Pretty tough.

[/quote]

kurmat, basically any vegetable that tastes like putrid ass is gonna be allowed on this diet. this is the shit you will mainly use i would think…

1.spinach
2.any other really dark leaf
3.tiny bits of broccoli and cauliflower
4.asparagus(this shit is so ridiculously expensive)
5.shrooms(tiny bits)
6. cucumber

thats it basically(IMO of whast you would be using often)…although you have the weird ass vegetables that no one will ever eat…but think shit like collard greens, hearts of palm(taste like putrid ass), romaine.

Whats wrong with romaine?

Yeah, good lord Owen you’re gonna turn people off of vegetables they haven’t even heard of yet. I eat raw spinach almost every night, and sometimes mix it in a salad with romaine. I like it. However, it took a while to develop a taste for these things, as is true with most things I now enjoy,(i.e. lifting heavy pieces of metal, sprinting, etc.)

Lay off the judgement calls dude.

ok, if your were to do some strenous cardio would this deplete your glycogen stores faster, thereby causing you to make the metabolic shift faster? or do i have this all wrong. Could someone please explain this all to me? thanks in advance.

Check a few pages back on some of my posts. An active recovery day will be superior to a cardio session. The one caveat is to NOT build your training week around it. Dan “nearly all my theories are wrong” Duchaine had this as sacred dogma. Toss a very light session for total body with about 40-50% 1RM going NOWHERE near failure and do a circuit style workout. This is NOT mandatory and is just a convenient way to squeeze a bit more glycogen out of the system.

As far as the shift, once you’ve gone 12 days bro, it’s done. Just trust the science and don’t sweat it.

DH

[quote]Deathroe wrote:
ok, if your were to do some strenous cardio would this deplete your glycogen stores faster, thereby causing you to make the metabolic shift faster? or do i have this all wrong. Could someone please explain this all to me? thanks in advance.[/quote]

ok, but what about doin serious cardio w/o the 12 day shift? say if u were to jump staraight into the 5/2 and just do some cardio or active recoveries to kill ur glycogen stores would this cause you make the metabolic shift within the first 5 days, making 12 days unnecessary? simply theoretical, i kno what your supposed to do, but if you were to do this would it work? or would you just end up burning off muscle mass? thanks again

[quote]Disc Hoss wrote:
Check a few pages back on some of my posts. An active recovery day will be superior to a cardio session. The one caveat is to NOT build your training week around it. Dan “nearly all my theories are wrong” Duchaine had this as sacred dogma. Toss a very light session for total body with about 40-50% 1RM going NOWHERE near failure and do a circuit style workout. This is NOT mandatory and is just a convenient way to squeeze a bit more glycogen out of the system.

As far as the shift, once you’ve gone 12 days bro, it’s done. Just trust the science and don’t sweat it.

DH

Deathroe wrote:
ok, if your were to do some strenous cardio would this deplete your glycogen stores faster, thereby causing you to make the metabolic shift faster? or do i have this all wrong. Could someone please explain this all to me? thanks in advance.

[/quote]

[quote]Disc Hoss wrote:
Dan “nearly all my theories are wrong” Duchaine had this as sacred dogma. Toss a very light session for total body with about 40-50% 1RM going NOWHERE near failure and do a circuit style workout. This is NOT mandatory and is just a convenient way to squeeze a bit more glycogen out of the system.

[/quote]

wasn’t the point of doing high rep circuit training glycogen depletion? How is his theory wrong?

[quote]Disc Hoss wrote:
E/C stacks always make you pay in the end. It’s a crude mechanism IMHO. [/quote]

How so?

I was wondering if it would’nt be a good idea to train in accordinance with the glycogen highs and lows of the anabolic diet. Example would be as in the old OTC manual by Leo Costa to perform high reps in the 15-20 range with 5 sets an exercise during the carb depletion stage and then low reps(with subsequent high intensity) in the full glycogen phase(after carb up).
Brandon Green

Owen70, thank your lucky stars for two things.

  1. I’m eating CHO right now and they have a sedative effect.

  2. You’re in HS and I suppose I was as much of a “shotgun mouth” as any teenager. Or so my father-in-law states. :wink:

You are correct in one thing. You don’t understand the “hypocritical” stance of myself and the originator of the diet. You keep the CHO this low NOT to attain ketosis, but rather to drop glucose levels low enough to trigger significant fat burning AND protein sparring. If/when you ever fully adapt to the diet then ketosis is NOT a reality anymore. Want to know what happens when I whiz on a ketostick? Nothing. My blood glucose hovers around 90-95. Ketosis is nowhere to be found. Since I have ADAPTED, my body is no longer in the metabolic purgatory of ketosis. With the large quantities of CHO we ingest on the load and the minimal daily value, we keep just out of ketosis. We’re like a plane skimming the ground. We don’t land, we hover.

Dan “I’m wrong 99% of the time” Ducahine demanded NO CHO on mon, tues, and wed (?). He was focusing on forcing you into a rapid ketosis condition by eliminating ALL CHO, with concommitant liberal usage of VS and Metformin to plummet blood sugar. Now what Duchaine did NOT realize is that even at this rate, once the person adapted, he would use FATTY ACIDS, and TRIGLYCERIDES as the primary fuel sources. But then Mauro says this is to be used as a lifestyle eating pattern, not just a 6 week diet solution for a contest. We are wave cycling here. That is why Doc D calls it a cyclical diet, or macronutrient cycling, NOT a CKD.

The focus on ketosis is like having me point at something while you just look at my finger.

You get your glycogen depleted during the weekdays. This allows for an enhanced uptake of both glucose and amino acids into the muscle. It is preferentially shuttled to the muscle after this scarcity it has experienced. We use this to trick the body into accepting more than normal amounts of various substances to trigger an anabolic response. Here AGAIN Duchaine has his focus wrong. He thought that the above conditions leading to “kinetic cellular expansion” was the golden boy. NO. That is a real benefit that has some value, but the real money is the HORMONAL cascade that the cyclical pattern sets in motion. To Duchaine it was all about ketosis->glycogen supercompensation. To Di Pasquale it is all about adaptation->hormonal maximization. Once you adapt then ketosis is not attained and neither should it be a goal.

This whole fixation that causes people to miss the big picture reminds me of the training to failure controversy. It’s not necessary and should not be sought as it increases CNS demand. You can get “near” failure and still hit the necessary MU’s to derive the effect. Both of these dogmatic “needs” (training->failure and ketosis) are doing nothing but taking a good observation and coming to a bad conclusion.

Anyway, ketosis sucks after an initial break in period. It is counterproductive to BB’s and PL’s whose activity is centered around anaerobic exercise that is fueled by glycogen.

We drop down “close” to ketosis where we have the full benefits (once adapted) of using fat as THE premier fuel source. During this time the body holds stored glycogen like a fat cop does a donut. We use it ONLY for weight training purposes. During this time insulin is low/healthy, thus it continues to do it’s job of nutrient transfer but won’t be able to deposit anything into fat very easily (unless you eat a freakin’ cow). Amino acids are sent to muscle as normal BUT and here is the real purpose, testosterone levels are elevated, GH is elevated (as it often operates in an antagonistic fashion with insulin), glucagon is bumped up for fat loss (not too much so), and neurotransmitters that allow for alertness are in ample supply and used. We have an anabolic cocktail going on right then NOT ketosis. The value of the ketostix are about as much as the urine you spill on them at this point.

Then as we load we derive the benefits of the mother of all insulin surges and have another fascinating ADAPTATION phenomenon happen, we get BOTH insulin and GH elevated during at least the first 24 hours of the load. Yup, that’s right. Doc D has found that for the first day of loading at least, you are continuing to burn fat at a higher than normal rate and we can actually have GH and insulin working in tandem. This is normally not a possibility. The benefit and purpose is to wave your CHO to cause a hormonal cascade that allows for anabolic action during BOTH the low carb phase and the uptake phase.

Try to offer comments and assistance instead of argumentative jabs. When you don’t understand something then say so, don’t come across as a jilted authority, bro. You’ll be taken more seriously and you’ll show you have a normal respect for the opinions/experiences of others. You can question me all you want, but you should familiarize yourself with the Metabolic Diet by Di Pasquale before you implicate him as ?hypocritical?. What you?ve been is HYPER critical You?ve got too much Lyle and Duchaine in your understanding.

This is the Anabolic Diet thread. We want growth. It is the best cutting diet too, but the key is muscle growth. We want the best of both worlds. The AD is just that.

Best,
DH

If you are familiar with BO then you’ll notice that Duchaine wanted a standard bodybuilding workout on Mon for 1/2 body, then tues for the other 1/2. Then you dicker around on wed, thurs, and then Friday began the circuit. The whole BO program was based on poor conception and application of training protocols. You are hitting a bodypart once a week with any real effect then you sit in a metabolic/training dead zone waiting for the all important 2 hour marathon depletion workout. Blind to the max, and again DanD was seeing the finger instead of what the finger was pointing at. Di Pas’s work “stimulated” DanD to do BO and he screwed it all up. It was classic Duchaine stealing the ideas of others, not understanding the mechanisms fully, and then presenting himself as an authority. A guy who never had any success in weight training. Now, I think Dan was funny and entertaining, but I’m not afraid to call a spade a spade.

You do not need to waste time waiting all around for the grand depeletion. We are BB’s, PL’s, SM’s, etc… We shouldn’t and don’t need to make a program overhaul for a depletion workout when it will happen anyway from your standard training.

I have said, and this will be the last time I beat this dead horse so help me, that IF you want to monkey around with this then do two things:

  1. Make it in addition to your split. It should be an addendum not the plot.

  2. Do a Westside/Waterbury AR workout. This will facilitate recovery and benefit by utilizing a proper intensity load.

My point is that it is fine to do but DanD built BO all around a heavy workout at the beginning of the week and a pointless, no growth 2 hours waste of time that was of minimal use and ultimately unnecessary and made it an integral part of the “success”.

The OTS program that followed along with the commercial introduction of the AD was a conjugate periodization scheme that allowed for high frequency, sufficient load, controlled volume sessions that actually BUILT muscle and were more than sufficient to deplete glycogen.

The diet, once you’ve adapted, removes all of the need for focus on ketosis, rebounding, etc… Duchaine saw the “small” picture and suggested the BO for a quick fix. Mauro is a expert who has more credentials professionally and academically than Ducahine had perverse statements.

BB, don’t mistake my tone. It just gets tiresome to hammer the same things and my mood is sour anyway. For this I apologize. It’s not directed toward you. Check out some of the earlier posts and the one I sent out for Owen70.

Best,
DH

[quote]Bronx Bomber wrote:
Disc Hoss wrote:
Dan “nearly all my theories are wrong” Duchaine had this as sacred dogma. Toss a very light session for total body with about 40-50% 1RM going NOWHERE near failure and do a circuit style workout. This is NOT mandatory and is just a convenient way to squeeze a bit more glycogen out of the system.

wasn’t the point of doing high rep circuit training glycogen depletion? How is his theory wrong?

[/quote]

BB, for the sake of brevity, you can search around on this. There is plenty of info. If I’m not mistaken
T-Nation even frowns on it at some point. Ephedra is a crude beta agonist and causes an adrenal backlash once you come off. The body never likes to be “forced” to do anything. It’s always better to play by the “rules” and try to coax your system into maximizing it’s own production/utilization.

DH

[quote]Bronx Bomber wrote:
Disc Hoss wrote:
E/C stacks always make you pay in the end. It’s a crude mechanism IMHO.

How so?[/quote]

You’ll make the shift either way. Serious cardio will simply have adverse effects on your muscle building goals and is often foregone for the use of HIIT. Cardio can be used judiciously for help with fat loss. Again, one needs to utilize a sufficient loading parameter (ie intensity, speed) before an activity moves from aerobic to anaerobic. The anaerobic work will give you the depletion. My rock bottom thougts? It’s not worth agonizing over trivialities. If you keep all variables in your life the same, you’ll reach adaptation and subsequent levels of depletion that will allow for supercompensation. Anything else is mind candy. In the end, this thread is about the doing. MDragon started this baby to put it into action. That will be where you learn this “beast”.

Best,
DH

[quote]Deathroe wrote:
ok, but what about doin serious cardio w/o the 12 day shift? say if u were to jump staraight into the 5/2 and just do some cardio or active recoveries to kill ur glycogen stores would this cause you make the metabolic shift within the first 5 days, making 12 days unnecessary? simply theoretical, i kno what your supposed to do, but if you were to do this would it work? or would you just end up burning off muscle mass? thanks again

Disc Hoss wrote:
Check a few pages back on some of my posts. An active recovery day will be superior to a cardio session. The one caveat is to NOT build your training week around it. Dan “nearly all my theories are wrong” Duchaine had this as sacred dogma. Toss a very light session for total body with about 40-50% 1RM going NOWHERE near failure and do a circuit style workout. This is NOT mandatory and is just a convenient way to squeeze a bit more glycogen out of the system.

As far as the shift, once you’ve gone 12 days bro, it’s done. Just trust the science and don’t sweat it.

DH

Deathroe wrote:
ok, if your were to do some strenous cardio would this deplete your glycogen stores faster, thereby causing you to make the metabolic shift faster? or do i have this all wrong. Could someone please explain this all to me? thanks in advance.

[/quote]

Hey BG,
If you recall the OTS conjugation trended downward in reps toward the end of the week. You want to stick to the original scheme otherwise you will negate the overloading. The ramp would make each session and each week a bit tougher until you were just beginning to touch acute overtraining. Then you’d coast for a few weeks with heavier loads and lower volume. It undulated in a sense. You need to keep this intact in order for the integrity to be whole. Check out my concurrent (time wise) posts and notice that you don’t have to worry about this type of thing. OTS worked well with the AD. The one caveat they were not so clear on, and this is a biggie, is not to train to failure. Close but not all the way. Keep it a few reps shy. This type of frequency demands it. The AD works with any loading parameters that stimulate size and/or strength. You’re fine to pick any T-mag program and just go for it. Once you fully adapt (THAT is a recurring theme here in ALL my posts) then it’s life as normal. The AD doen’t need to move in, marry your sister, steal the remote control and generally dominate your life. It’s an autopilot program that maximizes your hormonal output for gains without fat and leaning without shrinking. Now that is a deal!

DH

[quote]cccp21 wrote:
I was wondering if it would’nt be a good idea to train in accordinance with the glycogen highs and lows of the anabolic diet. Example would be as in the old OTC manual by Leo Costa to perform high reps in the 15-20 range with 5 sets an exercise during the carb depletion stage and then low reps(with subsequent high intensity) in the full glycogen phase(after carb up).
Brandon Green [/quote]

DH,
We were discussing using HOT-ROX while cutting on the AD. 2 weeks in and my weight has stabalized at 185lb, and now my waist is getting smaller, I’m getting leaner and I haven’t lost any strength. I’ve noticed that by following the ‘cycling’ of kcals up and down each day (weekly total of 21000), it’s been fairly easy to lose fat without losing mass. I’ve also noticed that my energy level is maintained throughout the day, instead of up and down, even though I have been working midnights and not getting alot of sleep. I’m doing 2 more weeks of HOT-ROX then I’m going to maintainance mode.

The AD is great because I get to eat lots and put on little, unless I want to. Oh yea, on the carb up; I’ve noticed that on Sat I’m FLYIN’, on Sun Morning I’m great, by Sunday nite, I’m ‘nodding’. By Monday, I’m ready and steady. I"m gonna try this weekend at 36hrs instead of 40+, just to see how I feel on Sun night. More later.

Awesome! Sounds perfect. Keep up the good work.

Best,
DH

[quote]ruglayer09052000 wrote:
DH,
We were discussing using HOT-ROX while cutting on the AD. 2 weeks in and my weight has stabalized at 185lb, and now my waist is getting smaller, I’m getting leaner and I haven’t lost any strength. I’ve noticed that by following the ‘cycling’ of kcals up and down each day (weekly total of 21000), it’s been fairly easy to lose fat without losing mass. I’ve also noticed that my energy level is maintained throughout the day, instead of up and down, even though I have been working midnights and not getting alot of sleep. I’m doing 2 more weeks of HOT-ROX then I’m going to maintainance mode.

The AD is great because I get to eat lots and put on little, unless I want to. Oh yea, on the carb up; I’ve noticed that on Sat I’m FLYIN’, on Sun Morning I’m great, by Sunday nite, I’m ‘nodding’. By Monday, I’m ready and steady. I"m gonna try this weekend at 36hrs instead of 40+, just to see how I feel on Sun night. More later.[/quote]

Time to check in. I’ve been sort of experimenting to find what my maitenance level should be. So far I know that 3000 cals is far too little, as I was just too hungry to maintain that for a week. I also now know that eating around 4000 cals/day caused me to gain 2lbs. in one week, (and feel really stuffed). So right now, I’m giving 3500 a shot. I’ll find out if it worked next friday.

I just completed ABBH for the second time, and am going to have to re-test my max’s again, as I am sure they went up. I’ve been doing “100 reps to bigger muscles” for my pecs, and I know my bench has gone up by at least 10lbs. This is probably true with the other lifts as well.

Just ordered a bunch of power drive and ZMA, as well as my first bottle of Spike!

I am also looking for my ideal cals. I fluctuated from 207 to 213 during the first two weeks. Today is carb day #1. I didn’t notice a crash while low carbing though. What does that mean?

[quote]Disc Hoss wrote:
Hey BG,
If you recall the OTS conjugation trended downward in reps toward the end of the week. You want to stick to the original scheme otherwise you will negate the overloading. The ramp would make each session and each week a bit tougher until you were just beginning to touch acute overtraining. Then you’d coast for a few weeks with heavier loads and lower volume. It undulated in a sense. You need to keep this intact in order for the integrity to be whole. Check out my concurrent (time wise) posts and notice that you don’t have to worry about this type of thing. OTS worked well with the AD. The one caveat they were not so clear on, and this is a biggie, is not to train to failure. Close but not all the way. Keep it a few reps shy. This type of frequency demands it. The AD works with any loading parameters that stimulate size and/or strength. You’re fine to pick any T-mag program and just go for it. Once you fully adapt (THAT is a recurring theme here in ALL my posts) then it’s life as normal. The AD doen’t need to move in, marry your sister, steal the remote control and generally dominate your life. It’s an autopilot program that maximizes your hormonal output for gains without fat and leaning without shrinking. Now that is a deal!

DH
[/quote]

*********** Cool i was thinking the AD with Poliquins “Manly Weight Loss”!
Brandon Green

[quote]Disc Hoss wrote:
Hey BG,
If you recall the OTS conjugation trended downward in reps toward the end of the week. You want to stick to the original scheme otherwise you will negate the overloading. The ramp would make each session and each week a bit tougher until you were just beginning to touch acute overtraining. Then you’d coast for a few weeks with heavier loads and lower volume. It undulated in a sense. You need to keep this intact in order for the integrity to be whole. Check out my concurrent (time wise) posts and notice that you don’t have to worry about this type of thing. OTS worked well with the AD. The one caveat they were not so clear on, and this is a biggie, is not to train to failure. Close but not all the way. Keep it a few reps shy. This type of frequency demands it. The AD works with any loading parameters that stimulate size and/or strength. You’re fine to pick any T-mag program and just go for it. Once you fully adapt (THAT is a recurring theme here in ALL my posts) then it’s life as normal. The AD doen’t need to move in, marry your sister, steal the remote control and generally dominate your life. It’s an autopilot program that maximizes your hormonal output for gains without fat and leaning without shrinking. Now that is a deal!

DH

[/quote]

********** Marriage to my sister! Thank God i did not have a sister! I was thinking of ways to maximize the AD. The sequence of the OTS is justified for strength/hypertrophy no doubt. For bodyfat loss i have some other ideas.
Brandon Green