My Experience On the Anabolic Diet

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
YoungGunner wrote:
<<< also yes going from a low carb diet to higher carbs will lead to fat gain if you dont do it gradually, >>>

OK, I really do not want to either confuse this young lady or offend you, but I couldn’t disagree with this more.

Being too gradual is exactly what she’s doing and is the direct cause of the trouble she’s having. Adaptation has to be jumped into with both feet and kamikaze like abandon until the initial phase has taken place.

You’re better off overdoing the fat and getting no carbs for the first 2 weeks. After the metabolism has been convinced that you are not going to give it enough carbs to live on and has decided that fat will do fine, there are still several weeks of gradually decreasing upheaval after which you THEN are approaching a position to have an intelligent collection of data to proceed from.

She is playing metabolic tug o war with herself. Not enough of either fuel source which will eventually turn on herself with muscle being the only remaining choice.

This is one them thar shit or get off the pot scenarios.[/quote]

Tirib,

Normally I’m with ya 100%, but this confused me. I think it applies to just plunging into the AD, but it seemed to me that YoungGunner was talking about coming off the AD and back to a more “traditional” BB’ing diet…

[quote]AlphaDragon wrote:
Tirib,

Normally I’m with ya 100%, but this confused me. I think it applies to just plunging into the AD, but it seemed to me that YoungGunner was talking about coming off the AD and back to a more “traditional” BB’ing diet…[/quote]

I do hereby stand utterly corrected =] OOPS!!!

My apologies to Youngunner. I read his statement entirely in error. I did indeed think he was telling her to ease in.

[quote]sifuinkorea wrote:
<<< Tirib, where is there a reference to the AD? It sounds like the good Doc would be against any sort of carb load. >>>
[/quote]

I couldn’t find it now either. He used to have a general list of sites that were low carb/high fat oriented and Dr. D’s was there with a quick qualification about the fact that it was geared for BBers.

His site is really cool, but yeah, it’s not AD flavored, but just general info much of which would be useful to us.

[quote]sarah1 wrote:
Well, I started logging everything on fitday and I don’t understand how you guys say veggies don’t add up. Just 2 cups of cucumbers…4 carbs, broccoli 1 cup 2 carbs, all of these net. What I’ve tried the last few days is something like this:

2 scoops whey
coffee with cream
handfull of nuts

workout (crappy so ate nuts and whey during to get me through)

chicken - 6 oz
cheese - 1 oz

5 eggs with 2 yolks
1 oz cheese
1 cup bell pepper chopped

nuts
few eggs

then started the feeling crappiness…had a red bell pepper, tea with cream, a cup of cucumber

later woke up and couldn’t sleep =

ate broccoli, protein pudding *4 carbs(, cucmber, and red pepper

All this added up to 60 net carbs…totally screwed up. I’ve eaten about 2000 extra cals in the last 2 days since fats have replaced all my veggies.

Prior I was NOT eating a lot of carbs at all - I was eating only a LOT of green veggies and a bit of onion and a lot of protein. I was satisfied at 1600 cals. Now I am shaky at 2200. I’m absolutely freaked to try to go off the diet now though since I have gained probably a pound of FAT in the last 2 days.

I am totally upset and berating myself for leaving my previous lower carb but healthy diet. Now I’ve screwed up my body…I should be thinner due to water loss but I’ve gotten FAT as HELL in the last 2 days. I’m really freaked and don’t really know what I should do…advice???

The diet said it was okay to gain fat at first since your body will lose it…but where my metabolism it at it will NOT lose any of this stuff I’ve gained and futhermore I’m injured so I can’t just go exercise it off. I’m really really upset. I think everything has gone horribly wrong…

[/quote]

You know what the issue is? You need to chill the fuck out (had to say it, but bear with me). Obsessions always end in personal tragedy. Just remember that food is fuel, not a psychological crutch. Treat it as such.

Whether or not you should’ve eaten 2000 extra calories from fat doesn’t matter anymore (and my guess is it did you more benefit long-term than bad… even if you gained some weight, your body will shift toward fat adaptation, increase metabolism, and increase circulating leptin). However, the fact that you keep telling yourself that you gained 2 pounds of pure bodyfat from 2000 MAYBE excess calories (my hunch is the body compensates in some ways in the face of extra calories via increasing the metabolism and increasing leptin levels) IS a problem.

It is entirely possible that you look fatter, but don’t get that confused with being fatter. You are truly glycogen depleted. And probably for the first time in a LONG time. Without the extra glycogen, your muscles are small and loose.

And, of course, the issue of not eating enough fat on the appearance of the physique. I don’t know what else to tell you. This is a psychological issue. The fact is: eat when you are hungry and eat those foods the good Doc recommends. Personally, I prefer to eat a higher proportion of fat than 60% of my daily cals simply because it FORCES my body to use it instead of the protein I’m eating.

As touched on earlier, we want our bodies to be fat burning. If you train your body to burn protein (and rest uneasy, that’s what you’re doing), you will look smaller than before AND less lean. The ol’ double whammy. My personal opinion is that we don’t need the amounts of protein recommended to us on this site. I think a gram per LB is more than sufficient. Get the rest of your cals from fat.

Finally, quit getting down on yourself, it’s only keeping you from taking our advice. From an outsider’s perspective, we all see what’s happening. We can only provide you with the tools and knowledge. It’s up to you to internalize and apply them.

[quote]ovalpline wrote:

You know what the issue is? You need to chill the fuck out (had to say it, but bear with me).
[/quote]

LOL. Man I started dying laughing when I read that. I mean no offense sarah1, but I was thinking the exact same thing when I saw your post saying that you got fatter after two days of eating like this. And I noticed that you increased your kcal by maybe 800 each day. It takes 3200kcal to put on a pound of fat. So theres no way that happened.

Like ovalpine said, chill the fuck out. I would recommend a hard upperbody workout (as your lower body is injured correct?) followed by doing something that you really like to do. That usually works wonders when I’m stressed out.

Thanks for all the responses I’ve recieved. I’m feeling much better…I think part of the problem was that I was SERIOUSLY dehydrated. I’ve been drinking like it’s my job the last few days and I’m STILL thirsty always. I find when I’m hungry I’m actually just thirsty…

Anyway, it’s been suggested that I need to start my induction over? I’m on day 5…I did go over on the first day to about 45 g. and was about 35 g. on the second day (carbs). I’ve had about 47% fat and 47% proteins and the rest carbs each day. Some days the fat was a little higher.

After coming off a low carb and low fat but high protein diet I feel like my body is sucking up all this fat I’m eating. I’m also worried since it takes energy to digest protein so when eating a high protein diet isn’t your metabolism higher? Does that mean I shoudl eat less?

Second of all, does your body really change after a while on the diet? Like have others experience fat gain at the beginning but then reached a point where they really saw it decrease? I’m starting this diet at about 10% bf…(I found stuff to measure). What should I expect? The book said the diet usually is good for keeping you at 10%. Does it work for people already 10%? I need to gain lean mass.

Finally any suggestions on preworkout nutrition? I’ve been told it’s okay to have whey? Even though it has an insulin response? I haven’t had time to read the whole book, so I don’t know what his standpoint on pre- and post- workout insulin is…I assume you’re supposed to not have any insulin except on the weekend carb up?

And finally, can you really carb up after 12 days. Will your body be ready after only that time?

Thanks so much!

[quote]sifuinkorea wrote:
. Even if I don’t agree with the carb loads, it’s still a way of eating that is, IMO, 85% accurate.

-SK

[/quote]

Do you think you should never have carbs?

I wanted to post one of the responses Disc Hoss gave me when I was getting bogged down in technical details early on. Ketosis was the specific topic then, but the general will apply to AD noobs forever.

I never forgot, did what he said and haven’t been sorry.

[quote] Disc Hoss wrote:

August 18th, 2006

"ketones become replaced by FFA’s and triglycerides as energy substrates. The base energy source is ATP. You can get it from CHO or you can get if from FFA’s. You’ll see fewer and fewer ketones as you adapt further. I canont stress enough, the strong ketogenic response is an intermediate phase. Many folks, including some who should know better, stop here and make all sorts of specualtions and conclusions during this initial phase. Mauro needs a megaphone to announce,YOU MUST NOT ASCERTAIN EFFECT UNTIL ADAPTATION IS COMPLETE!

Doc addresses many of these questions on his Metabolic Diet site once you’ve bought the book and have a login. Suffice it to say, don’t get wrapped up in inconsequential minutia. Grasp the mechanics of the diet, understand it’s not a low card diet but rather a timed CHO diet and forget what the arm chair experts tell you.

With people like DiPasquale, Poliquin, Forsythe, Alessi, Gironda, Faigin, and countless others, consider yourself in good company.

best,
DH [/quote]

Hello guys! I am doing the AD for now 6 months and this diet rocks like hard rock muscle I am gaining and everyone in the gym looks at me like crazy…I know what they think but the truth is other…so my question is does anybody have an e-book on nutrition (like Ketogenic diet from Lyle, BodyOpus or NHE from Rob faigin) and could you send it me by mail? I would really appreciate because I am really looking so far for new knowledge on dieting. This thread rocks! Thanks to all!

[quote]Stingblood wrote:
Hello guys! I am doing the AD for now 6 months and this diet rocks like hard rock muscle I am gaining and everyone in the gym looks at me like crazy…I know what they think but the truth is other…so my question is does anybody have an e-book on nutrition (like Ketogenic diet from Lyle, BodyOpus or NHE from Rob faigin) and could you send it me by mail? I would really appreciate because I am really looking so far for new knowledge on dieting. This thread rocks! Thanks to all![/quote]

congrats on ur progress …i do have a nhe book but its in a paperback form …incase i come to usa …soon i will make a copy of it and come and bring and will pm and will let u know when i come there . its bascially same as ad …just a wed carb meal and sunday carb meal and its just 1 meal …and he does suggest doing hiit for cardio …and nothing new then ad . but still when i come there will pm u so i can give that to u

Day 5 and I worked out using normal amounts of weight, but I was sweating like never before and my recovery between sets was awful.

10 minutes after I finished, I passed out on the couch for 2 hours. I woke up and could barely walk. I felt like I had food poisoning. After another hour I was feeling half human.

I had been feeling great until today. I don’t know if this is a crash, but I would like to know how other people have felt when they “crashed”, please?

[quote]whitebobo wrote:
Day 5 and I worked out using normal amounts of weight, but I was sweating like never before and my recovery between sets was awful.

10 minutes after I finished, I passed out on the couch for 2 hours. I woke up and could barely walk. I felt like I had food poisoning. After another hour I was feeling half human.

I had been feeling great until today. I don’t know if this is a crash, but I would like to know how other people have felt when they “crashed”, please?

[/quote]

were u eating a high carb diet before starting the ad ? if yes then crash will be a little more . though i was eating a relatively low carb diet when i did my induction sometimes i felt as if iam havinga some fever , and in workouts u simply dont get the energy and focus . i mean …u get a feel of doing weights when u are having some high fever running in ur body .

the key is when u feel weak or low consume some nuts or sip some olive oil .rememeber its not abt protien its abt fats u must consume more fats rather then consuming more protien.
whatever the crash is soon after the induction infact in the induction itself u will see a reverse of this crash that is super high energy and its for sure that ur poundages will increase and u will feel more controlled and very focused and very energetic .induction can be tough but its really a very imp step before u get any sucess in this diet so pls follow it and pls do enough fats , if u work pls try and carry a olive oil bottle with u it can be very handy and remember to buy the extra virgin olive oil and not the regular one which is refined . some chesse , nuts specially like walnuts and almonds without any addional flavour on it are great food which u can pack in ur bags if u are on a go .

flaxmeal is again a great option which u can add in heavy cream and ur protien powder and make a pudding kind of thing the flaxmeal will give u some great fats at the same time provide u some fiber also and pls do …eat a lot of vegetables . they really taste great when u stir fry them with some butter . and yes sweating is normal …and u can compensate it with infact u must its very imp with a lot of water intake throught the day . hope this helps and all the best .

ya i was referring to transitiong off the AD to a high carb diet

heres what THIB posted in DA New Thib Zone (i learn so much from there)CARBS AFTER NONE1. What I suggest, and what I did myself is as follow:

  • 2 weeks of targeted carbs intake (zero carbs all day except for 75g post-workout and 75g 90 minutes later)

  • 2 weeks of carbs cycling 2 days low-carbs/1 day normal carbs

  • 2 weeks of carbs cycling 1 day low carbs/1 day normal carbs

  • Back to normal diet

kg wrote:
CT,

Quick question, when coming off a 50g or less per day carb diet whats the best way to transition back into a muscle gaining phase with carbs? Do we go on a maintainence diet for a while or what? I figured if I just jumped back into carbs full force I’d get fat even though being lean and primed for muscle gain. I re-read a post you made earlier about how you would
gradually carb cycle after your show but I really not sure I understood it.

this was in response to sarah question about going OFF the AD,(although ive yet to see a reason why to do it) i agree when coming ON just drop your carbs and adapt.

also sarah with your few days of 45 grms of so from veggies i think you’re fine, no need to start over. Also 12 days is PLENTY reward yourself with carbs, they’ll fill your muscles back up and youll feel good. For me the 12 days was pretty bad, and after my 1ST carb up it was smooth sailing, so look forward to it, quit worrying, and give this a shot before you try something else right away.
Im hes

[quote]sarah1 wrote:
sifuinkorea wrote:
. Even if I don’t agree with the carb loads, it’s still a way of eating that is, IMO, 85% accurate.

-SK

Do you think you should never have carbs?
[/quote]

sarah,

I’m one the extremists here, so take this with a grain of salt…

My first suggestion to you is as we have all been saying - follow the diet to a tee, ignore most of the symptoms you’re experiencing as your adapting back to your body’s preferred fuel source - fat. As a woman, I would keep my carb loads to one day instead of two. My experience with training women is that two days of carbs is too much but they don’t know it because they as all beginners, they can’t yet recognize when they are, “spilling over”, or have had too many carbs. Other than this change, I would adhere to the original diet as planned out.

That being said… I am one who has very infrequent carb feedings. As I have posted before, (and don’t mind posting again for newbies) my focus is a mix between performance, body comp, mental sharpness, and overall health. There is much literature out about how carbs are not needed for body functions - fat, yes, protein, yes, but not carbs. However, as some of these folks know, I am not one for trusting the literature no matter how logical a study or argument is, I need to see the results within myself. So this takes some time. The benefit of this thread is comparing others’ experiences with yours and learning how everyone else is affected, allowing you to use this info.

To answer your question, I rarely carb up and when I do, it’s usually due to a beer or two and being human. I never go through a formal carb load but maybe have a few beers and some ice cream at the end of the day a couple of times a month. If you’re not so much focused on max performance above all else, you never NEED carbs - green veges, ok, but any form of processed carb - no. Think about what you could eat without processing… animals and plants. Meat, veges, fruit, nuts, seeds. There is nothing else. Where did high fat come from?

Arguably, our original ancestors found it easy to break open the bones of carcasses with rocks and eat the bone marrow inside. Have you ever seen the amount of bone marrow in a large game limb? Google bone marrow and see what it consists of. Why fight for the lean muscle meat when you can wait for food that you’re guaranteed? Even with a fresh kill, what do you think is eaten first? Organ meats. Google those and see what they contain. There is a reason why fattty meats are tastier to us than a lean chicken breast, as an example.

Enough of a rant, we’ve evolved to live off of mostly fat, and some protein and greens. Eating in this fashion puts you back in tune with nature, thereby lessening the affect of aging and disease. If you want to lift heavy and grow large of course you’ll have to supplement your diet to affect your hormones in a way that leads to that end - enter occasional carb loads. But do you NEED them? No.

-SK

[quote]YoungGunner wrote:

also sarah with your few days of 45 grms of so from veggies i think you’re fine, no need to start over. Also 12 days is PLENTY reward yourself with carbs[/quote]

Agreed.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I wanted to post one of the responses Disc Hoss gave me when I was getting bogged down in technical details early on. Ketosis was the specific topic then, but the general will apply to AD noobs forever.

I never forgot, did what he said and haven’t been sorry.

Disc Hoss wrote:

August 18th, 2006

"ketones become replaced by FFA’s and triglycerides as energy substrates. The base energy source is ATP. You can get it from CHO or you can get if from FFA’s. You’ll see fewer and fewer ketones as you adapt further. I canont stress enough, the strong ketogenic response is an intermediate phase. Many folks, including some who should know better, stop here and make all sorts of specualtions and conclusions during this initial phase. Mauro needs a megaphone to announce,YOU MUST NOT ASCERTAIN EFFECT UNTIL ADAPTATION IS COMPLETE!

Doc addresses many of these questions on his Metabolic Diet site once you’ve bought the book and have a login. Suffice it to say, don’t get wrapped up in inconsequential minutia. Grasp the mechanics of the diet, understand it’s not a low card diet but rather a timed CHO diet and forget what the arm chair experts tell you.

With people like DiPasquale, Poliquin, Forsythe, Alessi, Gironda, Faigin, and countless others, consider yourself in good company.

best,
DH [/quote]

Maybe I’m reading this wrong (please correct me if this is wrong)… but is it saying that Dipasquale stated that FFA’s can be used for anaerobic exercise rather than CHO? That seems to me to make since. It seems that our ancestors were mostly anaerobic, and they didn’t have much CHO.

So in the state of things… FFA’s or some other source of energy would have to of been used for sprinting to catch wild animals and the like. Again, please correct me if I’m wrong.

[quote]Bizmark wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
I wanted to post one of the responses Disc Hoss gave me when I was getting bogged down in technical details early on. Ketosis was the specific topic then, but the general will apply to AD noobs forever.

I never forgot, did what he said and haven’t been sorry.

Disc Hoss wrote:

August 18th, 2006

"ketones become replaced by FFA’s and triglycerides as energy substrates. The base energy source is ATP. You can get it from CHO or you can get if from FFA’s. You’ll see fewer and fewer ketones as you adapt further. I canont stress enough, the strong ketogenic response is an intermediate phase. Many folks, including some who should know better, stop here and make all sorts of specualtions and conclusions during this initial phase. Mauro needs a megaphone to announce,YOU MUST NOT ASCERTAIN EFFECT UNTIL ADAPTATION IS COMPLETE!

Doc addresses many of these questions on his Metabolic Diet site once you’ve bought the book and have a login. Suffice it to say, don’t get wrapped up in inconsequential minutia. Grasp the mechanics of the diet, understand it’s not a low card diet but rather a timed CHO diet and forget what the arm chair experts tell you.

With people like DiPasquale, Poliquin, Forsythe, Alessi, Gironda, Faigin, and countless others, consider yourself in good company.

best,
DH

Maybe I’m reading this wrong (please correct me if this is wrong)… but is it saying that Dipasquale stated that FFA’s can be used for anaerobic exercise rather than CHO? That seems to me to make since. It seems that our ancestors were mostly anaerobic, and they didn’t have much CHO.

So in the state of things… FFA’s or some other source of energy would have to of been used for sprinting to catch wild animals and the like. Again, please correct me if I’m wrong. [/quote]

there are many guys specially the martial artist sometimes dont even carbup they do also lift weights and they look hard lean and full of energy . in a way ur logic is right our ancestors i dont think must be doing a weekeend carbup with oats, milk ,brown rice, rice cakes and pizzas and icecreams.
but the question here is maybe we stop carbup we might look flat and less vascular … i mean atleast on this thread i dont think anybody not doing a carbup. but will be really intresting to know some 1 who lifts weight routinely on weekly basis and doesnt do carbup and still enjoying the benefits of increased poundages , consistent fat loss , and power.
asnd again the main issue can be leptin levels and carb meals do increase leptin levels thats what coach thib also said in a article . even vince gironda used to give a diet same as ad to his gym memebers but used to allow 1 concentrated carb meal every 4 day .

but still remains a very intresting point what if we dont carbup what happens in long run i mean atleast if some 1 dosent do it for say 2 months and also lifts his weight ?. and as on this thread no 1 has done that yet.

The context was when there was a trend back then for everybody to get ketostix and compare ketone levels. His comment was referring to metabolism as a whole, not anaerobic work. As the body moves into full adaptation over a period of a few months it increases it’s ability to derive energy directly from lipid based fuels and away from ketones.

His main point and the one I was emphasizing was to defer judgement on how you are being effected until adaptation is complete. Not just the induction, but full adaptation. Impatient bastards like me have a hard time with that, but he was sooo right.

Anybody who hasn’t already should go back to the first 30-50 pages of this thread and read all his posts. He has 10 Plus years experience and the most comprehensive technical and empirical knowledge of how this works bar none of anybody who’s last name isn’t DiPasquale.

That’s not taking anything away from anyone else, but he is a great resource and 99% of the questions that are recurring here were answered there.

I decided to run a little experiment on myself today to see what foods make me full and which ones don’t while adhering to the under 30 carb rule.

Usually I eat kinda like the Zone recommends, lean meats with the oils (flax or olive) included (except I have alot more oils and usually just eat spinach with each meal). This fills me up nicely and is not too costly as I usually eat chicken, tuna, or salmon; and eggs thrown in once or twice a day. (I AM NOT EATING according to the zone breakdown however, just the food types; as I am sticking to DiPasquale’s breakdown.)

Today I ate trace amounts of veggies, and stuck to mostly cheese, hamburger, and heavy whipping cream. In total I took in close to 7000 kcal, and I’m not in the least bit full right now.

I’m sitting here having a cup of coffee with even more heavy whipping cream in it. I notice that its really hard to get full off cheese or anything dairy. I can eat it for hours and not get full, while taking in a ton of kcal. So while I’m cutting I’ll make sure to not have much cheese or dairy.

Processed hamburger is also something I have trouble getting full off of. I ate 3 hamburgers for breakfast and wasn’t full at all, while normally I have 6 eggs and am perfectly fine, which is much less in kcal.

In conclusion, just like on other diets, the easiest foods to take in are the calorie dense ones. Dairy is extremely easy to take in, and so is processed hamburger. Atleast thats the way it is for me anyway. Not exactly sure why things like that are, seems like the calorie dense food would make me more full, but thats obviously not the case. Maybe because those foods don’t contain as much water as some other foods.

Anyway, has anyone else found out anything about the certain types of foods they eat while on this lifestyle?

[quote]Bizmark wrote:
I decided to run a little experiment on myself today to see what foods make me full and which ones don’t while adhering to the under 30 carb rule.

Usually I eat kinda like the Zone recommends, lean meats with the oils (flax or olive) included (except I have alot more oils and usually just eat spinach with each meal). This fills me up nicely and is not too costly as I usually eat chicken, tuna, or salmon; and eggs thrown in once or twice a day. (I AM NOT EATING according to the zone breakdown however, just the food types; as I am sticking to DiPasquale’s breakdown.)

Today I ate trace amounts of veggies, and stuck to mostly cheese, hamburger, and heavy whipping cream. In total I took in close to 7000 kcal, and I’m not in the least bit full right now.

I’m sitting here having a cup of coffee with even more heavy whipping cream in it. I notice that its really hard to get full off cheese or anything dairy. I can eat it for hours and not get full, while taking in a ton of kcal. So while I’m cutting I’ll make sure to not have much cheese or dairy.

Processed hamburger is also something I have trouble getting full off of. I ate 3 hamburgers for breakfast and wasn’t full at all, while normally I have 6 eggs and am perfectly fine, which is much less in kcal.

In conclusion, just like on other diets, the easiest foods to take in are the calorie dense ones. Dairy is extremely easy to take in, and so is processed hamburger. Atleast thats the way it is for me anyway. Not exactly sure why things like that are, seems like the calorie dense food would make me more full, but thats obviously not the case. Maybe because those foods don’t contain as much water as some other foods.

Anyway, has anyone else found out anything about the certain types of foods they eat while on this lifestyle?[/quote]

yea i noticed the same if i ever brought a burger patty or some cheese for a snack id be even hungrier 10 minutes later…eggs and other meats all the way