[quote]bkmacky9288 wrote:
so can i find this stuff at any ole store or a nutrition store[/quote]
you can find at a nutrition store. one brand calls it colon cleanse.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
josh.shafer wrote:
<<< if we are fat adapted (that is our everyday activities run on fat if I’m not mistaken) why would it theoretically mean that we burn more fat throughout the week if we deplete glycogen as soon as possible when glycogen is only used for intense activity. >>>
I don’t mean to be a joykill here, but this guy is hitting (pun?) a point here kinda sideways. HIIT burns more fat post activity, but has a decidedly anerobic component while it’s being done. Anerobic work can only be fueled by glycogen and in the absence of existing stores aminos are converted to glycogen, read muscle.
This leads me to suspect that fat adapted athletes may not be as well served by HIIT as cho burning folks, but may also be much better suited to lower intensity cardio than cho burning folks just because the adapted metabolism prefers fat of which plenty is always available. I’m not declaring this an indisputable fact, but it’s something I’ve been pondering for a while.[/quote]
Thanks for the reply, Trib. That part I really understand, but I just can’t see the benefit of being depleted as early as possible for maximum fat burning. From what I’ve learned it’s the fat that is burned by day-to-day activity, not the glycogen. How far off am I?
[quote]josh.shafer wrote:
<<< Thanks for the reply, Trib. That part I really understand, but I just can’t see the benefit of being depleted as early as possible for maximum fat burning. From what I’ve learned it’s the fat that is burned by day-to-day activity, not the glycogen. How far off am I?
[/quote]
Again, I’m not going to be the one to tell anybody they’re not happy with the way they’ve been doing things, but as far as I’m concerned as stark a dichotomy between fuel sources for different work is preferable.
Meaning glycogen for the weights and lipids for everything else, as much as possible. If you’re using glycogen to fuel cardio/HIIT (energy system work) after depletion, your eating muscle and if you’re depleting yourself too quickly you’re not leaving the intended fuel available for the weights.
This is why I’ve come to believe that the rules are different for adapted individuals and lower intensity cardio may be preferable in our case. There is that great a difference in the way an adapted person’s body utilizes macronutrients.
While a regular cho burner needs to chew past the glycogen “obstacle” to start using fat, we just don’t work that way. Lipids are used to keep our heart beating and brain functioning so as soon as we wake up and start moving around at all fat is the fuel. If we start moving too intensely the limited glycogen stores we carry start to be used. Personally I don’t see this as advantageous.
That was my long, as polite as possible way of disagreeing with Josh and Alpha to be honest.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
josh.shafer wrote:
<<< if we are fat adapted (that is our everyday activities run on fat if I’m not mistaken) why would it theoretically mean that we burn more fat throughout the week if we deplete glycogen as soon as possible when glycogen is only used for intense activity. >>>
I don’t mean to be a joykill here, but this guy is hitting (pun?) a point here kinda sideways. HIIT burns more fat post activity, but has a decidedly anerobic component while it’s being done. Anerobic work can only be fueled by glycogen and in the absence of existing stores aminos are converted to glycogen, read muscle.
This leads me to suspect that fat adapted athletes may not be as well served by HIIT as cho burning folks, but may also be much better suited to lower intensity cardio than cho burning folks just because the adapted metabolism prefers fat of which plenty is always available. I’m not declaring this an indisputable fact, but it’s something I’ve been pondering for a while.[/quote]
I think you’re a touch away from the truth here. Anaerobic stunts can be fueled by any glucose source, glycerol and some amino acids, not only from glycogen. Our over simplified high school biology texts made it appear as if glycogen is the only fuel source balancing out blood glucose checkbook, but it’s just not true.
I don’t think there’s any particular reason an AD’er shouldn’t do high intensity, short duration conditioning work. A half scoop of whey with a tablespoon of cream before and after would probably do the trick, and/or some BCAA’s if they’re in your budget.
Of course, my typically flimsy $.02 as always.
[quote]conorh wrote:
I think you’re a touch away from the truth here. Anaerobic stunts can be fueled by any glucose source, glycerol and some amino acids, not only from glycogen. Our over simplified high school biology texts made it appear as if glycogen is the only fuel source balancing out blood glucose checkbook, but it’s just not true.
I don’t think there’s any particular reason an AD’er shouldn’t do high intensity, short duration conditioning work. A half scoop of whey with a tablespoon of cream before and after would probably do the trick, and/or some BCAA’s if they’re in your budget.
Of course, my typically flimsy $.02 as always.[/quote]
I’m not saying AD’ers shouldn’t do HIIT, but it would seem that many of the concerns with lower intensity, moderate duration cardio, concerns which I never entirely bought anyway, wouldn’t apply to a person who’s adapted.
All this is just me thinking out loud too, I don’t disallow the possibility that someday this whole topic will be settled and I will have been shown to be in error.
For me personally it is moot at the moment because cardio for me is a general health practice more than a means to burn fat.
However, on the other hand, assuming the accuracy of what you say, if I wanted to burn fat why would I supply a dietary source of aminos to avoid wasting muscle if lower intensity cardio doesn’t do that anyway for fat adapted people.
There is the whole fiber conversion issue, but I can’t see that happening with 20-30 minutes of moderate cardio.
A big topic no doubt. Lonnie Lowrey’s latest article even has a bunch of info including an up to date study that alleges to demonstrate that fasted cardio does burn more fat after all. Here we go round the mulberry bush again.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
conorh wrote:
I think you’re a touch away from the truth here. Anaerobic stunts can be fueled by any glucose source, glycerol and some amino acids, not only from glycogen. Our over simplified high school biology texts made it appear as if glycogen is the only fuel source balancing out blood glucose checkbook, but it’s just not true.
I don’t think there’s any particular reason an AD’er shouldn’t do high intensity, short duration conditioning work. A half scoop of whey with a tablespoon of cream before and after would probably do the trick, and/or some BCAA’s if they’re in your budget.
Of course, my typically flimsy $.02 as always.
I’m not saying AD’ers shouldn’t do HIIT, but it would seem that many of the concerns with lower intensity, moderate duration cardio, concerns which I never entirely bought anyway, wouldn’t apply to a person who’s adapted.
All this is just me thinking out loud too, I don’t disallow the possibility that someday this whole topic will be settled and I will have been shown to be in error.
For me personally it is moot at the moment because cardio for me is a general health practice more than a means to burn fat.
However, on the other hand, assuming the accuracy of what you say, if I wanted to burn fat why would I supply a dietary source of aminos to avoid wasting muscle if lower intensity cardio doesn’t do that anyway for fat adapted people.
There is the whole fiber conversion issue, but I can’t see that happening with 20-30 minutes of moderate cardio.
A big topic no doubt. Lonnie Lowrey’s latest article even has a bunch of info including an up to date study that alleges to demonstrate that fasted cardio does burn more fat after all. Here we go round the mulberry bush again.[/quote]
Thanks Trib and Connor. I was in no way agreeing with anybody, I was just trying to understand the reasoning in that earlier post about early in the week depletion. I think my rule will be to keep the weights to low reps anytime I have done enough high intensity stuff since my last load. It really makes not a lot of difference now, because I’m trying to lay on the muscle. There will come a time, however, when I will want to cycle in some fat burning, though. Thanks for the help guys!
ya personally i like to save glycogen for weights throughout the week, sure glycogen gets depleted, but its more a byproduct, i think you’re right we do burn fat all the time so i wouldnt first thing in the week depelte glycogen with HIIT and then weight train later.
I am one of those who generally feel like a doggy poop while carb loading, and just the thought of hitting the gym make me weak in the knees.
But when i do force myself to go, i feel great at the END, when I am done training. I don’t have the pump during the wo like many of you talk about, my pump comes when i am done and over with training. Just wondering if anyone else experience in this order: CHO load, feel poopie, train still feeling poopie, and then end up energetic and pumped…
BTW, i’ve been ADing 4.5 months now and still loving it - thanks everyone
[quote]josh.shafer wrote:
Alright, I’m gonna ask now because I’ve been wondering for a while and I’m never gonna know unless I ask, so here goes…
if we are fat adapted (that is our everyday activities run on fat if I’m not mistaken) why would it theoretically mean that we burn more fat throughout the week if we deplete glycogen as soon as possible when glycogen is only used for intense activity.
I like the idea of getting HIIT in early in the week when we have the stores to support it, but I was thinking that we are burning fat throughout the week, meaning that it wouldn’t matter whether we were depleted or not. Can anybody make this clear for me?[/quote]
OK, this is going to be extremely difficult for me to answer, so I would like to first quote Dr. D from the Anabolic Solution e-book for bodybuilders on page 68: “During both Monday and Tuesday your system will be working hard, burning off all the increased glycogen you gained over the weekend, and continuing to burn fatty acids. Overall you’ll experience a rise in fat burning and bodyshaping potential. Then Wednesday to Friday with glycogen limited again you’ll depend much more on your primary fat burning metabolism to maximize fat loss and body toning.”
What does that mean? Well, read carefully: on the AD there is an increase in FFA burning, however it is still coupled with the burning of glycogen for energy. This is what makes the diet decidedly unketogenic. HOWEVER, by the time we have burned off much of our glycogen, our body becomes increasingly dependent on our fat burning, and since our leptin levels should remain high (provided we are carbing-up weekly), the body has little disagreement with releasing more FFA for burning. This is the key point to my statement: the sooner you burn off your glycogen, the quicker you tap in to a higher level of fat burning. Sure this may hinder your performance and recovery a bit. That I cannot argue, but there is a fat burning trade-off. In the case of continued high intensity exercises such as weight-training, I definitely agree that glycogen is the primary energy substrate, however, remember that our leptin levels are still good, facilitating more and more FFA for our utilization during these high-intensity type exercises. Granted, this still may not be sufficient and the body may turn to aminos for energy, but again this is where the AD helps us: not only are we already getting a surplus of protein, but the diet itself is protein sparing. It all comes down to the question of how much protein do we really need per day? Probably less than our bodybuilding culture makes us believe. And remember, I was discussing depleting glycogen early only as a tool for fat loss, which is a specific phase of dieting that should not be a long-term approach (Thibaudeau has suggested no longer than 12-16 weeks at a time). I recognize that he still recommends over a gram of protein a day, which I’m sure all of you are getting. But if you want an extreme measure, take a look at Berardi’s “Get Shredded Diet”, which recommends .8 gram of protein/lb and only 10-12 calories/lb for up to 12 weeks and a CHO up once ever 13 days (and this CHO up is only one day). Look, the body is remarkably capable of adjusting to what the environment gives it. Eventually everything does catch up with it, however, so it’s best to think of your training and diet in terms of phases if you have specific goals. And for fat loss, one of the quickest ways to maximize it on the AD is to deplete glycogen as quickly as possible to ensure a complete FFA burning, then CHO-up to ensure leptin levels, and repeat.
[quote]ovalpline wrote:
josh.shafer wrote:
Alright, I’m gonna ask now because I’ve been wondering for a while and I’m never gonna know unless I ask, so here goes…
if we are fat adapted (that is our everyday activities run on fat if I’m not mistaken) why would it theoretically mean that we burn more fat throughout the week if we deplete glycogen as soon as possible when glycogen is only used for intense activity.
I like the idea of getting HIIT in early in the week when we have the stores to support it, but I was thinking that we are burning fat throughout the week, meaning that it wouldn’t matter whether we were depleted or not. Can anybody make this clear for me?
OK, this is going to be extremely difficult for me to answer, so I would like to first quote Dr. D from the Anabolic Solution e-book for bodybuilders on page 68: “During both Monday and Tuesday your system will be working hard, burning off all the increased glycogen you gained over the weekend, and continuing to burn fatty acids. Overall you’ll experience a rise in fat burning and bodyshaping potential. Then Wednesday to Friday with glycogen limited again you’ll depend much more on your primary fat burning metabolism to maximize fat loss and body toning.”
What does that mean? Well, read carefully: on the AD there is an increase in FFA burning, however it is still coupled with the burning of glycogen for energy. This is what makes the diet decidedly unketogenic. HOWEVER, by the time we have burned off much of our glycogen, our body becomes increasingly dependent on our fat burning, and since our leptin levels should remain high (provided we are carbing-up weekly), the body has little disagreement with releasing more FFA for burning. This is the key point to my statement: the sooner you burn off your glycogen, the quicker you tap in to a higher level of fat burning. Sure this may hinder your performance and recovery a bit. That I cannot argue, but there is a fat burning trade-off. In the case of continued high intensity exercises such as weight-training, I definitely agree that glycogen is the primary energy substrate, however, remember that our leptin levels are still good, facilitating more and more FFA for our utilization during these high-intensity type exercises. Granted, this still may not be sufficient and the body may turn to aminos for energy, but again this is where the AD helps us: not only are we already getting a surplus of protein, but the diet itself is protein sparing. It all comes down to the question of how much protein do we really need per day? Probably less than our bodybuilding culture makes us believe. And remember, I was discussing depleting glycogen early only as a tool for fat loss, which is a specific phase of dieting that should not be a long-term approach (Thibaudeau has suggested no longer than 12-16 weeks at a time). I recognize that he still recommends over a gram of protein a day, which I’m sure all of you are getting. But if you want an extreme measure, take a look at Berardi’s “Get Shredded Diet”, which recommends .8 gram of protein/lb and only 10-12 calories/lb for up to 12 weeks and a CHO up once ever 13 days (and this CHO up is only one day). Look, the body is remarkably capable of adjusting to what the environment gives it. Eventually everything does catch up with it, however, so it’s best to think of your training and diet in terms of phases if you have specific goals. And for fat loss, one of the quickest ways to maximize it on the AD is to deplete glycogen as quickly as possible to ensure a complete FFA burning, then CHO-up to ensure leptin levels, and repeat.[/quote]
Great post! And thanks for your time. Do you think that in a dieting phase peri-workout nutrition of whey would spare muscle in a depleted state? I know this is a gray area, but I’m just curious about your opinion.
thanks
I’ve noticed over the last couple of weeks using fitday.com that getting equal numbers of grams of protein and fat automatically gives you your 70%F/30%P ratio (with negligible carbs). I’m consistently amazed at how easy it is to shop and eat on the AD.
Very affordable, too. I just buy whatever meat and veggies are on special for the week, and manage to keep my bill around $50.
[quote]industrialplaid wrote:
I’ve noticed over the last couple of weeks using fitday.com that getting equal numbers of grams of protein and fat automatically gives you your 70%F/30%P ratio (with negligible carbs). I’m consistently amazed at how easy it is to shop and eat on the AD.
Very affordable, too. I just buy whatever meat and veggies are on special for the week, and manage to keep my bill around $50.[/quote]
Its extremely easy to shop for indeed! I’m one of the few people that does not get tired of eating the same foods everyday. I know variety is the spice of life, but I just love my bacon + eggs, cheeseburgers, steak, etc.
I have also learned that a full weekend carbup is not for me. Im going to just perform a saturday carbup, and make sure it is clean (last week I overdid it on the homemade cookies)
Just finished the first week of Waterbury’s ‘next frontier’ program. It kicked my ass bad. I lacked some sleep a few nights (damn women), but will get that in check next week. Kept the cals high around 4000.
[quote]aspengc8 wrote:
I have also learned that a full weekend carbup is not for me. Im going to just perform a saturday carbup, and make sure it is clean (last week I overdid it on the homemade cookies)[/quote]
You’re going to regret this decision… you’ll NEED, NEED the glycogen supercompensation for HFT. Without it, the training WILL catch up to you and it WILL feel like you have the flu and/or got hit by a truck. The glycogen isn’t simply fuel for your workout, but also fuel for your recovery. Don’t sell yourself short.
So instead of making 2 changes: (a) eating clean and (b) shortening your carb-up, make the more important change. Eat clean and eat mighty. I left a post on the previous page regarding macronutrient changes for carb-loads to minimize fat regain while still re-upping your glycogen, leptin, and other muscle-building and fat-burning hormones.
Try that out at least one carb-load before determining that you want to shorten the carb-load. Believe me, I’m another HFT guy and I’ve been through the highs, lows, and troubleshooting in-between.
[quote]josh.shafer wrote:
Do you think that in a dieting phase peri-workout nutrition of whey would spare muscle in a depleted state? I know this is a gray area, but I’m just curious about your opinion.
thanks[/quote]
I definitely think it would help spare muscle and it would do so by conversion to glucose for energy in high-intensity exercise that FFA would be too slow/inefficient to provide. However, again it comes down to a question of how much protein we really need. My assumption is that the protein we are getting on the AD is more than sufficient, unless, of course, one is DRASTICALLY cutting calories.
Considering Berardi is OK’ing 10 calories/LB and only .8 grams of protein/LB for up to 12 weeks, even on training days, my guess is that a whey peri-workout supplementation is not necessary and will simply become additional fuel for fire. Still, it’s not a bad idea if you are really concerned about muscle loss since protein has such a large thermic effect.
Still, I wouldn’t go overboard on the whey. I would limit myself to .4 grams of protein/kg to limit a massive conversion to glucose, yielding an insulin response.
[quote]ovalpline wrote:
josh.shafer wrote:
Do you think that in a dieting phase peri-workout nutrition of whey would spare muscle in a depleted state? I know this is a gray area, but I’m just curious about your opinion.
thanks
I definitely think it would help spare muscle and it would do so by conversion to glucose for energy in high-intensity exercise that FFA would be too slow/inefficient to provide. However, again it comes down to a question of how much protein we really need. My assumption is that the protein we are getting on the AD is more than sufficient, unless, of course, one is DRASTICALLY cutting calories.
Considering Berardi is OK’ing 10 calories/LB and only .8 grams of protein/LB for up to 12 weeks, even on training days, my guess is that a whey peri-workout supplementation is not necessary and will simply become additional fuel for fire. Still, it’s not a bad idea if you are really concerned about muscle loss since protein has such a large thermic effect.
Still, I wouldn’t go overboard on the whey. I would limit myself to .4 grams of protein/kg to limit a massive conversion to glucose, yielding an insulin response.[/quote]
212lb/2.2lb per kg =96 kg
.4 x 96 = 38.54 grams of Pro per day?
your fat macro would have to be 90% to put on weight. And that’s not enough protein to prevent losing muscle.
[quote]Ovalpline wrote:
Still, I wouldn’t go overboard on the whey. I would limit myself to .4 grams of protein/kg to limit a massive conversion to glucose, yielding an insulin response. [/quote]
[quote]josh.shafer wrote:
212lb/2.2lb per kg =96 kg
.4 x 96 = 38.54 grams of Pro per day?
your fat macro would have to be 90% to put on weight. And that’s not enough protein to prevent losing muscle.
[/quote]
Read again. About 40 grams of supplemental whey pre or peri-workout in addition to the protein you already consume normally on the AD.
for chris and ovalpline: i dropped my cals this week from 2500 to 2000 in two days subbing 250 cals at a time…i was 166-7 in the beginning of the week and now im 160 and am now varsity 160 pounder…im happy.
im guessing most of the weight mustve been undigested food cuz ive always worked full intensity so i dont think water couldve been more than 2-3 lbs…im gonna do a two day carb up with 2200 cals both days and im gonna continue at 2000 cals for another week then up to 2500 after the tourny for my metabolism…then do the cycle over and over
[quote]ovalpline wrote:
Read again. About 40 grams of supplemental whey pre or peri-workout in addition to the protein you already consume normally on the AD.
[/quote]
Ahhh. Of course. I took it out of context. Thanks!
[quote]bkmacky9288 wrote:
for chris and ovalpline: i dropped my cals this week from 2500 to 2000 in two days subbing 250 cals at a time…i was 166-7 in the beginning of the week and now im 160 and am now varsity 160 pounder…im happy.
im guessing most of the weight mustve been undigested food cuz ive always worked full intensity so i dont think water couldve been more than 2-3 lbs…im gonna do a two day carb up with 2200 cals both days and im gonna continue at 2000 cals for another week then up to 2500 after the tourny for my metabolism…then do the cycle over and over[/quote]
Congrats! Keep working hard!
I bought some ketostix and tested to see if I was in ketosis today… all I have to say is, wtf. Not even “trace” amounts of ketones. Ive been taking in 30g carbs per day, about 50 including fiber. And I’m not in ketosis? How could that possibly be? I feel way better on this diet than a normal carb diet, even increased energy. I do not see how I’m not in ketosis.
So I think I need to do a little more experimenting with this. Ill go until next sunday until I do a carb load. Ill test to see if I’m in ketosis on monday, wednesday, and friday. Checking the difference on all the days.
Also, I’m gonna cut out the splenda, cuz I think that might be fucking it up. What Ill do is go for the next few days without splenda, then on tuesday Ill drink some splenda with my coffee and then an hour later check to see if the ketones changed from monday. I’ll let you all know.