Please take the horseshit about religious tolerance somewhere else. Perhaps to PWI. Plenty of churches and synagogues in Muslim countries to accommodate those followers, particularly in Lebanon (lots of Christians there), Palestine (there are Palestinian Christians) and Iran (Iranian Armenians are mostly Christian).
There is also a decent sized community of Chinese Muslims in China. Bet some of you didn’t know that.
Yes, I am sure our media just forgot to report this stuff to some of you.
Buddaboy,
Great points about the lack of alternatives. However, I will also say that, unfortunately for these girls (just one?), their country will probably spin this as some affront to their faith, when in fact it is not.
The “spirit” of hijab is to dress modestly and not show off. That’s it. In competition, people are there to watch competitors, and those competitors are not there to show off and attract sexual attention. Of course, such intellectual debate isn’t permitted by propaganda machines.
[quote]zahmad wrote:
There are churches/temples/synagogues in lots of Muslim countries. I’ve personally seen them in Muslim countries and even met a Bishop in one Muslim country.[/quote]
OK, by that logic: there are mosques in the US. I’ve even met an imam. Problem?[/quote]
What is your point? What offense do you take with his comment?
[quote]buddaboy wrote:
Whilst I believe that integration is imperative within developed pluralistic societies such as ours, I don’t recall ever hearing about any Muslim country/community ever building church’s or making allowances for multiculturalism or racial diversity, they seem to have more of a ‘my way or the highway’ attitude.[/quote]
This is very true. I think there should be a healthy level of compromise within society, but it tends to be a one-way street with this particular community. Successful integration doesn’t depend on one side getting their way every time without giving anything up in return. I think there would be less resentment if this were ameliorated.[/quote]
I agree with you, but I would say that, in such cases, the issue is when one side is the minority; minorities tend to not want to compromise because they feel they’re the ones have to fight an uphill battle. Not agreeing with it, but that’s why I think compromise is not always on the immediate agenda.
[quote]TheJonty wrote:
I completely agree with everyone who thinks she should either obey the rules or just not compete. If your personal beliefs conflict with the rules imposed by the governing body of your sport on every competitor, then that is your problem, not the governing body’s problem.[/quote]
I agree with this, in case it wasn’t clear in my previous posts.
I also think that, if organizations kept accommodating people like this, then at what point are these people challenged and have to face the decision of sacrifice (in this case, sport vs religious values) ?
You can’t prove devotion unless you’re forced to make some hard decisions.
[quote]zahmad wrote:
There are churches/temples/synagogues in lots of Muslim countries. I’ve personally seen them in Muslim countries and even met a Bishop in one Muslim country.[/quote]
OK, by that logic: there are mosques in the US. I’ve even met an imam. Problem?[/quote]
What is your point? What offense do you take with his comment?[/quote]
My point was implicitly asking what his point was.
[quote]debraD wrote:
I admit though I am an atheist and I have a huge bias because I don’t respect the custom and it seems foolish to me so I’m having a hard time giving it the same importance it is to this woman. From a feminist point of view I want her to fight the religion wanting her to cover her skin rather than fight the IWF to support it, especially as an American woman who is not in a country where this is prevalent and her extreme interpretation of Islam is clearly a choice. But that really isn’t relevant to the debate but that is my admitted bias.
[/quote]
[quote]alexus wrote:
Sport vs Religion - I don’t have much respect for religion (crazy, the lot of them) so whatever.
But Sport vs Culture - ? I thought the point of the Olympics was cultures coming together not cultural factors resulting in exclusion…
I hear what you are saying about the elbow lock-out issue, though. If the sleeves were tight… And there were circles around the elbows (or similar) then wouldn’t it be just as easy to judge lock-out? Dunno…[/quote]
Interesting point…though I’m not religious, I do strongly identify with my culture.
I maintain that if they can judge press-outs effectively, she should be accommodated for. But if not, it’s her problem, not theirs.
[quote]zahmad wrote:
There are churches/temples/synagogues in lots of Muslim countries. I’ve personally seen them in Muslim countries and even met a Bishop in one Muslim country.[/quote]
OK, by that logic: there are mosques in the US. I’ve even met an imam. Problem?[/quote]
What is your point? What offense do you take with his comment?[/quote]
My point was implicitly asking what his point was.
I didn’t take any offense to his comment. Why?[/quote]
Ok, I wasn’t sure what you meant.
I think he made that comment to as evidence of “tolerance” in Muslim countries, given the comments about Muslims being intolerant.
And I think it wouldn’t be as necessary for you to bring up the same about America; relatively speaking, America is much more tolerant, but most of us in this thread live in America, so we already know that.
[quote]alexus wrote:
at least this chick is raising the issue…
i hope it gets resolved sensitively…
[/quote]
Totally. Infi…erm I mean non-Muslims need to show MORE sensitivity than they do now. I hope that World Trade Centre ‘building bridges’ mystery funding(Saudi) Mosque thing gets solved with sensitivity too. They’re so sensitive to our feelings and we just continually provoke them with cartoons and stuff.
Tell the stupid bitch to take that silly fucking thing off her head or she can fuck off.[/quote]
lot of hate there…
Shouldn’t you be writing a letter to News Corp about the Saudi price who is funding this “terror Mosque” ? He is a shareholder in News Corp; does that piss you off at all?
Another thing to keep in mind are The Crusades. Christians felt threatened by Muslims and went on a killing spree, in the name of their God, for many decades. The Muslims were pissed, and rightly so, and in kind they returned the favor. It went back and forth for a long time. 50-100 thousand killed at a whack. A lot of people killed in the name of their respective God. We still have the carry over today. I believe Muslims can live peacefully in our U.S. society, but I don’t think they will ever integrate fully into our society.
We are in essence, like it or not, a society based on Christianity. Really uptight ones at that. The first batch that left England actually went to The Netherlands first, but found The Dutch too relaxed for them and left to come here. The Puritans. The name gives a clue as to how they regarded themselves.
By the way, 40% of India is also Muslim. And most of Malaysia.
[quote]zahmad wrote:
There are churches/temples/synagogues in lots of Muslim countries. I’ve personally seen them in Muslim countries and even met a Bishop in one Muslim country.[/quote]
OK, by that logic: there are mosques in the US. I’ve even met an imam. Problem?[/quote]
What is your point? What offense do you take with his comment?[/quote]
My point was implicitly asking what his point was.
I didn’t take any offense to his comment. Why?[/quote]
I was responding to this: “I don’t recall ever hearing about any Muslim country/community ever building church’s or making allowances for multiculturalism or racial diversity, they seem to have more of a ‘my way or the highway’ attitude.”
I think Ponce and others have done an adequate job of explaining further.
[quote]alexus wrote:
at least this chick is raising the issue…
i hope it gets resolved sensitively…
[/quote]
Totally. Infi…erm I mean non-Muslims need to show MORE sensitivity than they do now. I hope that World Trade Centre ‘building bridges’ mystery funding(Saudi) Mosque thing gets solved with sensitivity too. They’re so sensitive to our feelings and we just continually provoke them with cartoons and stuff.
Tell the stupid bitch to take that silly fucking thing off her head or she can fuck off.[/quote]
lot of hate there…
Shouldn’t you be writing a letter to News Corp about the Saudi price who is funding this “terror Mosque” ? He is a shareholder in News Corp; does that piss you off at all?[/quote]
Yeah lots of hate. Don’t want a fucking Saudi Mosque built virtually on the World Trade Centre rubble? = Islamophobe. I don’t have time for this shit.
And to the other appeasers/sand Nazis: There’s not a single Church in Saudi Arabia. Not allowed. Christians are persecuted, murdered and disenfranchised in EVERY Muslim country in the world. In addition Hagia Sophia, the holiest Church in Christiandom was turned into a fucking Mosque and is now a museum.
[quote]alexus wrote:
at least this chick is raising the issue…
i hope it gets resolved sensitively…
[/quote]
Totally. Infi…erm I mean non-Muslims need to show MORE sensitivity than they do now. I hope that World Trade Centre ‘building bridges’ mystery funding(Saudi) Mosque thing gets solved with sensitivity too. They’re so sensitive to our feelings and we just continually provoke them with cartoons and stuff.
Tell the stupid bitch to take that silly fucking thing off her head or she can fuck off.[/quote]
lot of hate there…
Shouldn’t you be writing a letter to News Corp about the Saudi price who is funding this “terror Mosque” ? He is a shareholder in News Corp; does that piss you off at all?[/quote]
Yeah lots of hate. Don’t want a fucking Saudi Mosque built virtually on the World Trade Centre rubble? = Islamophobe. I don’t have time for this shit.
And to the other appeasers/sand Nazis: There’s not a single Church in Saudi Arabia. Not allowed. Christians are persecuted, murdered and disenfranchised in EVERY Muslim country in the world. In addition Hagia Sophia, the holiest Church in Christiandom was turned into a fucking Mosque and is now a museum.[/quote]
The saudi mosque being built… ? Ohhhh You mean the Burlington Coat factory building that’s been deserted for years that you can’t even see from the WTC. Muslims were working employees in the WTC and were part of the rescue teams and they lost their lives too.
[quote]zahmad wrote:
There are churches/temples/synagogues in lots of Muslim countries. I’ve personally seen them in Muslim countries and even met a Bishop in one Muslim country.[/quote]
OK, by that logic: there are mosques in the US. I’ve even met an imam. Problem?[/quote]
What is your point? What offense do you take with his comment?[/quote]
My point was implicitly asking what his point was.
I didn’t take any offense to his comment. Why?[/quote]
I was responding to this: “I don’t recall ever hearing about any Muslim country/community ever building church’s or making allowances for multiculturalism or racial diversity, they seem to have more of a ‘my way or the highway’ attitude.”
I think Ponce and others have done an adequate job of explaining further.[/quote]
My mistake; I thought you were responding to something else. Churches and the like do indeed exist in Muslim countries. Though it seems that most non-Muslims are perpetually persecuted in Muslim countries.
Hate crimes against Muslims have been constantly on the rise in western countries as well, while unfortunately a lot of Sikhs get attacked because ignorant fools think they are “Moslum towel heads”
Point being that these are people doing injustice to people, where religion is skewed and used as a scape-goat for immoral actions.
[quote]strangemeadow wrote:
Another thing to keep in mind are The Crusades. Christians felt threatened by Muslims and went on a killing spree, in the name of their God, for many decades. The Muslims were pissed, and rightly so, and in kind they returned the favor. It went back and forth for a long time. 50-100 thousand killed at a whack. A lot of people killed in the name of their respective God. We still have the carry over today. I believe Muslims can live peacefully in our U.S. society, but I don’t think they will ever integrate fully into our society.
We are in essence, like it or not, a society based on Christianity. Really uptight ones at that. The first batch that left England actually went to The Netherlands first, but found The Dutch too relaxed for them and left to come here. The Puritans. The name gives a clue as to how they regarded themselves.
By the way, 40% of India is also Muslim. And most of Malaysia.[/quote]
Uh, the people you’re referring to here have all been dead for a long, long time. I don’t think there is all that much carry over.
[quote]zahmad wrote:
Hate crimes against Muslims have been constantly on the rise in western countries as well, while unfortunately a lot of Sikhs get attacked because ignorant fools think they are “Moslum towel heads”
Point being that these are people doing injustice to people, where religion is skewed and used as a scape-goat for immoral actions.[/quote]
Yes, there will always be xenophobic idiots wherever you go. The thing is, the US has legislation that punishes hate crimes based on religion and race. This is quite different from state-sanctioned religious persecution that occurs in Muslim countries.
Just because the US punishes for those crimes doesn’t mean there isn’t undercover political backing of the crime/mentality. Politicians push fear and hate, they are great methods of control and getting votes. You have to vote for Sarah Palin because if you don’t then there might be more Mosques built and then somehow Shariah law will take over the United States !
The state sanctioned persecution of non-Muslims has no place in Islamic fundamentals, just as it has no place in the United States as per the Constitution. The countries in question are relatively young countries as well and their governments are still developing and battling corrupt leaders. The US legislation that punishes hate crimes is relatively new as the civil rights movement in America is still infantile and there are still huge racial divides.
[quote]zahmad wrote:
If we have freedom then why does one have to choose between the two without compelling reason? I could understand if there’s true justification for it, but if it’s just to rule out supportive gear a female judge could check her in private to ensure there was no supportive gear and then move on with the competition.[/quote]
Are you saying it’s impossible for a woman to practice Islam without wearing hijab?[/quote]
It’s a requirement of the faith.[/quote]
Where does the Qur’an mention hijab?[/quote]
Effort should be made to accomidate the requirements of the religion and beliefs that she holds (this is regardless whether you agree with her interpretation of the Qur’an).
However I agree that at some point a line must be drawn. Competing in a sporting organisation isn’t a right and if you don’t meet the fundimental rules and requirements then you should not compete.
[quote]alexus wrote:
at least this chick is raising the issue…
i hope it gets resolved sensitively…
[/quote]
Totally. Infi…erm I mean non-Muslims need to show MORE sensitivity than they do now. I hope that World Trade Centre ‘building bridges’ mystery funding(Saudi) Mosque thing gets solved with sensitivity too. They’re so sensitive to our feelings and we just continually provoke them with cartoons and stuff.
Tell the stupid bitch to take that silly fucking thing off her head or she can fuck off.[/quote]
lot of hate there…
Shouldn’t you be writing a letter to News Corp about the Saudi price who is funding this “terror Mosque” ? He is a shareholder in News Corp; does that piss you off at all?[/quote]
Yeah lots of hate. Don’t want a fucking Saudi Mosque built virtually on the World Trade Centre rubble? = Islamophobe. I don’t have time for this shit.
And to the other appeasers/sand Nazis: There’s not a single Church in Saudi Arabia. Not allowed. Christians are persecuted, murdered and disenfranchised in EVERY Muslim country in the world. In addition Hagia Sophia, the holiest Church in Christiandom was turned into a fucking Mosque and is now a museum.[/quote]
The saudi mosque being built… ? Ohhhh You mean the Burlington Coat factory building that’s been deserted for years that you can’t even see from the WTC. Muslims were working employees in the WTC and were part of the rescue teams and they lost their lives too.[/quote]
Don’t give me that shit. I don’t believe you’re that stupid. The Mosque will be named after the Cordoba Mosque in Spain which was built as a celebration of triumphant conquest of Christian land. The spokesperson and spearhead for the Mosque is Feisal Abdul Rauf whose book about the ground zero Mosque is called ‘A Call To Prayer From the World Trade Centre Rubble: Islamic Dawa in the Heart of Post 9/11 America’.
So to clarify: I’m not an idiot. I don’t believe you’re an idiot. Don’t fucking bullshit me and treat me like an idiot. And in addition, we’re going to fucking annihilate Jihadists, sponsor states and collaborators.