Muslim Woman Competes in Weightlifting

Off Topic
121

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]Testy1 wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]strangemeadow wrote:
I went to dinner not long ago at an Orthodox Jew’s home. There was no cream for the coffee during dessert because we had meat for dinner.
[/quote]

My God what a nightmare! No cream! You should’ve made him eat his fucking Yarmulke for that one.

[quote]strangemeadow wrote:

Strength (see what I did there) comes form diversity.
[/quote]

Actually that’s a load of liberal bullshit. Strength comes from unity. You know like breaking a single stick as opposed to trying to break a bunch of sticks.[/quote]

Actually, if you Diversified with a steel cable and a carbonfiber rod it would be stronger. You can be unified and diverse. [/quote]

True to the extent that the steel cable and carbon fiber rod would have to have shared values with the sticks, live in peace with them, adopt the customs and moral standards of the sticks and basically be patriotic sticks.[/quote]

Untrue, as Carbonfiber and steel cables actually preform best under tension. Furthermore, a group of sticks is like most like minded groups of people, without the ability to adapt and in the end mindless. After all Teddy Roosevelt didn’t say “walk softly and carry a bunch of sticks”

122

You keep saying this, but you literally have no idea how it affects judging, so you’re really just making it up. Again, I’ll make the point that bare elbows are almost certainly make judging press-outs easier. As someone who does the lifts, I think you know this to be true, but you’re glossing over it because you’re set on making this a women’s rights issue.

ah…

yeah… i’ve been having a shit time in my gym lately, so i’m set on making this a women’s rights issue :-p

maybe it does make judging press-outs easier. i never thought of that… are people allowed to wear elbow wraps (like knee wraps?) maybe not… i’ve never seen anyone wear them, i don’t think.

if it weren’t possible to accurately judge lockouts with covered elbows then i do think it is fair to require elbows to be uncovered. that is an empirical matter (sniff). i’d suck it up and say no covered elbows if there wasn’t a way…

Both American culture and cultures where veils and coverings are prevalent are overflowing with misogyny and the wardrobes, skimpy and non, are BOTH manifestations of its influence. Adding or removing clothing from has zero impact on misogyny or removing the excessive sexualization, objectification or the subsequent degradation of women. I recently saw a shitty comment on a youtube video of Sage Burgener demonstrating lifts in a baggy t-shirt and baggy sweatpants, for example.

yeah, i think i agree, actually. maybe with your whole post, even.

I think what you’re suggesting is that the sexual objectification of women is caused by the women wearing non-modest clothing.

no. i certainly don’t want to say that. i do think that there is a ‘likely consequence’ thing that happens, but that is very different from an ‘inevitable consequence’. and i do indeed think that women should be able to wear whatever they want or indeed nothing at all and that doesn’t license anybody at all to treat them as anything less than persons.

so…

there shouldn’t be a problem with covering the knees? i mean, most people wear knee wraps anyway so a weightlifting suit with long legs seems reasonable… but… the elbow issue might be important. the headscarf issue isn’t?? so long as it is fitting or whatever… i dunno about the elbows, though. wouldn’t colored patches on the elbows make it easy enough to judge lockout by the position of the arms?

equality is hard… men and women are different. men don’t cover their nipples for swimming but women do. some women (as part of their culture) wish to cover their elbows, knees, and hair for sport. i just think that IF POSSIBLE that should be accommodated.

i guess the thing is that i find it really sad when women don’t participate because of these rules. like the soccer chicks who faced not being able to compete because of the FIFA regulations… i wonder how many women did not compete in beijing because of the clothing restrictions. guess this issue hasn’t come up for Oly lifting before? at least this chick is raising the issue…

i hope it gets resolved sensitively…

123

[quote]zahmad wrote:
If one must choose religion over sport than that sport should not claim that it does not discriminate based on religion.[/quote]

Church of the AI
impatiently awaiting the singularity and post human existence.

All will be required to maximize their fusion with machines.

124

[quote]Edevus wrote:
http://matzav.com/israeli-player-will-be-banned-in-europe-because-of-desire-to-dress-modestly

Related.[/quote]

HA I can’t tell if that name is female or male, but I laugh only because they go to UT and got fucked over. So I’m already biased in this case.

Tuck Foledo!

I don’t think boyscouts of america has a thing against gays. They only have a thing against guys who commit sodomy with other guys!

125

You adapt to the Federation, the Federation does not adapt to you.

126

[quote]hockechamp14 wrote:

[quote]Edevus wrote:
http://matzav.com/israeli-player-will-be-banned-in-europe-because-of-desire-to-dress-modestly

Related.[/quote]

HA I can’t tell if that name is female or male, but I laugh only because they go to UT and got fucked over. So I’m already biased in this case.

Tuck Foledo!

I don’t think boyscouts of america has a thing against gays. They only have a thing against guys who commit sodomy with other guys![/quote]

From Wiki:

The Boy Scouts of America (BSA), one of the largest private youth organizations in the United States, has policies which prohibit atheists and agnostics from membership in its Scouting program, and prohibit “avowed” homosexual people from leadership roles in its Scouting program as directly violating its fundamental principles and tenets. BSA has denied or revoked membership status or leadership positions of youths and adults for violation of these foundational principles.
The BSA contends that these policies are essential in its mission to instill in young people the values of the Scout Oath and Law.[1][2]
The organization’s legal right to have these policies has been upheld repeatedly by both state and federal courts. In Boy Scouts of America v. Dale, the Supreme Court of the United States has affirmed that as a private organization, the BSA can set its own membership standards. The BSA’s policies have been legally challenged but have not been found to constitute illegal discrimination; as a private organization in the United States they have the right to freedom of association,[3] as determined in Boy Scouts of America v. Dale.[4] In recent years, the policy disputes have led to litigation over the terms under which the BSA can access governmental resources including public lands.

127

Since I practice the religion of Nudism I demand to be able to powerlift naked.

128

[quote]alexus wrote:
equality is hard… men and women are different. men don’t cover their nipples for swimming but women do. some women (as part of their culture) wish to cover their elbows, knees, and hair for sport. i just think that IF POSSIBLE that should be accommodated.
[/quote]

I think so too. I don’t know too much about this and so I hope the importance of the rules are not being overstated for the purposes of just keeping rules going. Weightlifting however is a judged sport that isn’t really all that subjective in it’s current state, but I think it’s possible to bring in more subjectivity if rules like these are let go.

I was reading on another forum an argument from a guy who lifts with her and he was saying she was willing to allow the judges to err on the side of incorrect if it means she can compete wearing her preferred clothing. But I see a big problem with that, too. A judge that does that might then be accused of bias and so it seems important that all competitors have the SAME uniform and if one must have covered arms perhaps they all must? Because I can see all sorts of problems and accusations of bias being possible when some competitors are allowed to cover arms and knees but get red-lights more often because the judges cannot be certain, or they just don’t agree with the exceptions to the uniform.

I think at some point you have to make a sacrifice for your passions and if you are passionate about weightlifting you have to do what you have to do. If your passion for your religion is greater than I think the choice is made for you. If your religion is that constraining that you cannot pursue your passions then maybe it’s time to question it.

I don’t know that I think there needs to be an attempt to bring people into a sport that they are only somewhat passionate that they won’t make the necessary sacrifices about because at this point I think I’d wear a frickin clown suit to keep doing this =D And you know all the other sacrifices it takes to get into a sport, adhering to the rules is just another one.

I admit though I am an atheist and I have a huge bias because I don’t respect the custom and it seems foolish to me so I’m having a hard time giving it the same importance it is to this woman. From a feminist point of view I want her to fight the religion wanting her to cover her skin rather than fight the IWF to support it, especially as an American woman who is not in a country where this is prevalent and her extreme interpretation of Islam is clearly a choice. But that really isn’t relevant to the debate but that is my admitted bias.

129

[quote]alexus wrote:

boxing: okay. so why not weightlifting?[/quote]

It shouldn’t be OK in boxing either. Anything covering any part of your head has no place in boxing.

130

i’m an athiest, too, and can’t wait until psychiatry finally recognizes religious beliefs for the delusions they are.

which is why i prefer to view this as a cultural rather than religious issue…

From a feminist point of view I want her to fight the religion wanting her to cover her skin rather than fight the IWF to support it, especially as an American woman who is not in a country where this is prevalent and her extreme interpretation of Islam is clearly a choice.

I used to feel like that… I have a couple friends now (PhD students in Australia) who choose to wear headscarfs and I was fairly surprised at their reasons, though, once I got to know them. They didn’t choose for religious reasons (they are atheists). They chose for cultural reasons.

Sport vs Religion - I don’t have much respect for religion (crazy, the lot of them) so whatever.
But Sport vs Culture - ? I thought the point of the Olympics was cultures coming together not cultural factors resulting in exclusion…

I hear what you are saying about the elbow lock-out issue, though. If the sleeves were tight… And there were circles around the elbows (or similar) then wouldn’t it be just as easy to judge lock-out? Dunno…

131

[quote]alexus wrote:
at least this chick is raising the issue…

i hope it gets resolved sensitively…

[/quote]

Totally. Infi…erm I mean non-Muslims need to show MORE sensitivity than they do now. I hope that World Trade Centre ‘building bridges’ mystery funding(Saudi) Mosque thing gets solved with sensitivity too. They’re so sensitive to our feelings and we just continually provoke them with cartoons and stuff.

Tell the stupid bitch to take that silly fucking thing off her head or she can fuck off.

132


Competitors must wear clothing which is clean, designed and worn to comply with the following:

a) A one-piece close-fitting costume which covers the trunk and hips and does not cover the knees or elbows and is collarless. A lifting costume may be of any colour.

b) A collarless T shirt may be worn under the costume but the sleeves may not cover the elbows.

c) Close fitting leotard/cycling type shorts may be worn under or over the costume. They must not cover the knees

d) a T shirt and trunks can not be worn in place of a costume.

FAIL!

133

I completely agree with everyone who thinks she should either obey the rules or just not compete. If your personal beliefs conflict with the rules imposed by the governing body of your sport on every competitor, then that is your problem, not the governing body’s problem. The rules, as best I can interpret them, are written with the intent of making the competition fair and judgeable (the rules can be found on www.iwf.net if you really feel the need to look them up).

As far as the rules, I’d just like to point out that the costume (singlet) may not cover the elbows or the knees, but the lifter is allowed to wear bandages/tapes/plasters on the knees (knee sleeves are common). There must be exposed skin between whatever is covering the knee and the singlet though.

As far as the ability to judge the lift while wearing baggier clothing than the rules allow, I’d say I’ve seen enough lifts in international competitions that were passed or not passed on sometimes difficult to ascertain margins of acceptable pressout or knee lockout (or lack thereof) to think that less restrictive clothing rules are in any way a good idea, insofar as judging the lift is concerned. The lifts just happen too goddamn fast for me to think otherwise.

As far as the objectification of the female form, well, if you’re opposed to men looking at you like that, then I suggest never leaving your house. Ever. Because it will happen. I don’t care if you’re wearing baggy sweatpants and a hoody, there will be some dumb horny bastard drooling over what he’s imagining is under there. Us men are stupid that way. And it’s the same thing, if you won’t follow the rules because of what you think or believe, that’s not the problem of the sport or the governing body, that’s your problem.

And I thought one of the tenets of the Olympics was sportsmanship and fair competition? Isn’t following the rules part of that?

I’ve got half a mind to write a letter to the IWF technical committee and/or the executive board telling them exactly how I feel about this. Make sure they know the opinion of at least one lifter before they have their review of the rules on athletes’ dress later this month.

134

I think she will be successful in her campaign to compete. She would have a good shot if she were in the UK, appealing under Art.9 ECHR.

Lets be honest: Does anyone think that she couldn’t be judged fairly and accurately with what she was wearing in that photograph? I’m sure if she was just given permission to compete she’d lose interest after a while anyway, the less of a fuss is made about all this nonsense the better. I think a lot of this has to do with people wanting to feel like they are being treated fairly, she’d probably be happy just knowing she could compete if she wanted to. She’d also probably be happier if she’d been brought up free to make her own religious choices as opposed to having strict ones imposed on her.

There is NO alternative organization for her to compete in. In the UK Muslims have joined secular educational institutions and unsuccessfully tried to have the rules adjusted to accommodate their dress requirements; for example, one institution required a photograph of the student with nothing covering the head for them to enroll, when challenged the applicants appeal was rejected on the grounds that they had chosen that secular institution instead of others available to them which would have accommodated their dress requirements.

In this case this young lady has only two choices-don’t compete or disregard her religions dress code. Many organizations are terrified of being accused of racial discrimination, this is reason alone for them to adjust the rules to accommodate her requirements in order to avoid negative press.

Whilst I believe that integration is imperative within developed pluralistic societies such as ours, I don’t recall ever hearing about any Muslim country/community ever building church’s or making allowances for multiculturalism or racial diversity, they seem to have more of a ‘my way or the highway’ attitude.

135

[quote]buddaboy wrote:
I think she will be successful in her campaign to compete. She would have a good shot if she were in the UK, appealing under Art.9 ECHR.

Lets be honest: Does anyone think that she couldn’t be judged fairly and accurately with what she was wearing in that photograph?[/quote]

She could easily be wearing grooved briefs, or some kind of illegal shoulder support under that. It’s not just about the knees and elbows.

136

137

http://www.fastcodesign.com/1664042/could-a-sports-hijab-change-fifas-stance-against-devout-muslims
^Solution

138

[quote]buddaboy wrote:
Whilst I believe that integration is imperative within developed pluralistic societies such as ours, I don’t recall ever hearing about any Muslim country/community ever building church’s or making allowances for multiculturalism or racial diversity, they seem to have more of a ‘my way or the highway’ attitude.[/quote]

This is very true. I think there should be a healthy level of compromise within society, but it tends to be a one-way street with this particular community. Successful integration doesn’t depend on one side getting their way every time without giving anything up in return. I think there would be less resentment if this were ameliorated.

139

There are churches/temples/synagogues in lots of Muslim countries. I’ve personally seen them in Muslim countries and even met a Bishop in one Muslim country.

140

[quote]zahmad wrote:
There are churches/temples/synagogues in lots of Muslim countries. I’ve personally seen them in Muslim countries and even met a Bishop in one Muslim country.[/quote]

OK, by that logic: there are mosques in the US. I’ve even met an imam. Problem?