Most Recent Milo

Training Powerlifting
81

[quote]Hanley wrote:
Your argument is that you apparently know what wearing gear feels like cos you have used a weight well above your max for partials.
[/quote]

First… WRONG! I never said I knew what it feels like.

Second… WRONG again. My “heavy partials” reference was made to dispute having to bring up your top end of the ROM of the squat when you use a suit. I said words to the effect of the top ROM is WAAAAAAAY stronger than any other point in the movement and that training to bring it up in my experience has never been necessary. Suit or no suit.

82

[quote]KBCThird wrote:

thank goodness someone got it. yes, htats exactly what I’m saying. my statement about gear differing from limiting the ROM is referring to your post about equating your above-parallel box squat with wearing gear.

and i dont care how many knees you’ve wrapped. honestly, i think it’s great that you support your training partners even if you dont plan on competing in the same feds. but why should i ask if you have gear experience when right HERE

http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1234667&pageNo=2#1241603

you said, never used gear wraps or a belt.[/quote]

Above parallel box squat? Where did I say that?

And where did I compare an above parallel box squat (words I never used) with wearing gear? Are we typing in the same forum here or what?

I box squatted 500 lbs, raw for a single. “Box squat” now automatically means above parallel to you?
Just to clarify, it was 3" below parallel.

The 780-800lbs partials were done in a rack with the bar at sternum height.

And you don’t care how many knees I’ve wrapped? Super comeback! I’ve lifted with guys (and girls), spotted, discussed, helped on and off, wrapped, adjusted, and bascially got VERY familiar with how gear affects lifters leverages and weak/strong points.

Would you call a Ferarri mechanic that worked intimately with Ferraris of all different models, fixed, tuned and rebuilt the cars and prepped them for a race unknowledgable about the subject of Ferraris because he’s not the driver?

YOU probably would!

83

[quote]KBCThird wrote:
“the 3 best exercises to measure total body strength are considered to be the squat, bench press, and deadlift.”

considered by whom? you? I could find you PLENTY of people who feel the snatch and the c&j would be better suited to determine total body strength. I could find plenty of others who feel that a strongman show - with stones, deadlifts, overheads, farmers … the list goes on - would be a better representation of strength than PL.

And 500 has be c&J many times? I could be wrong on that, but I thought the number of people who had done it could be counted on one, MAYBE two hands. Fine, if im wrong, which is more impressive, a 550 c&j or a 920 DL?[/quote]

Alright, let’s start from the beginning. The definition of maximal muscular strength is the ability of the muscle contract ONE time. This is measured by standardized tests such as your one rep max in the bench, squat, leg press, etc. The is different from maximal muscular endurance which is the ability of the muscle to contract REPEATEDLY, as measured by things like push-ups, situps, dips, pull-ups, etc.

The very reason why powerlifting came about was to test which person was the strongest overall in as short of time as possible. You could of course do a max for every muscle group but that type of competition would take forever, powerlifting as it is takes a full day just to do those 3 lifts. You can make an argument that OL is a better test of strength, but the big negatives there are that OL is very technical, the skill required to do OL is much higher than PL; OL doesn’t depending too much on chest strength so that is a weakness that it doesn’t measure; the two lifts are pretty similar; and it requires a high level of flexibility. In my opinion if you just had to pick one single exersise to measure total body strength, than that might work, but if you have access to more than one exercise you can come up with better selections.

Strongman competitions, despite its name, are not actually the best test of pure strength because most of their events involve the other components of fitness, namely cardio and muscular endurance, as well as muscular strength. Because of this is not the best test of actual strength. Things like a farmers walk, truck pull, conan’s wheel, anything that takes more than few seconds is not measuring pure strength but a mix of abilities. Indeed some strongmen complain of that very fact.

Finally you are trying to compare two different lifts (the C&J and the DL) and determining who is overall stronger and you can’t do that. You have to have people do the same lifts to do that. You could combine the two to form a total and then that person would be stronger. You can, however, compare how rare one lift is vs the other, and in this case a 920 dl is more rare than a 550 C&J. FYI the world record for the C&J is about 580, it was set at 500 in 1970 to give you an idea of how many people have done that. The IPF world record for the deadlift is 899 (408 kg) set in 2004. I know some people have pulled more than that in other situations but no one has been able to do over 900 under IPF rules.

Bottomline is that one lift is not sufficient to measure total body strength. If you can do 2 or 3 lifts there is no better test of total body strength than powerlifting, that is the very reason it exists, to see who is stronger overall. Olympic lifting is a close second for the reasons described above. Hope that makes more sense.

84

Sweet, feathery, floating Jesus… I think I became a little dumber just reading this thread.

Why can’t we all agree that gear artificially inflates totals above the raw amounts? If you want the contribution from gear just subtract the raw total from the gear total.

Watching modern PL feels like watching the movie Aliens with Sigourney Weaver in her giant dod-damn hydraulic dock loader.

I can see Ripley now in her giant, yellow loader with its rotating safety lights and welding torch getting psyched to DL 1,800 pounds and win the meet with a 4,300 total.

This photo of Idalberto seems way more impressive to me. If you do the math it’s a 3.75X bodyweight double:
http://www6.mailordercentral.com/ironmind/prodinfo.asp?number=PH-IATH

Also, why don’t the raw, raw, lifters without a federation just host a raw meet on YouTube? All the necessary elements to keep it fair can be filmed (weigh-ins, date stamps, etc.) A very specific code for each “meet” can be used as a search tag in YouTube. Give all the participants a weekend to post their files with the same search tag. Entries posted after a certain period of time won’t count.

85

[quote]derek wrote:
KBCThird wrote:

thank goodness someone got it. yes, htats exactly what I’m saying. my statement about gear differing from limiting the ROM is referring to your post about equating your above-parallel box squat with wearing gear.

and i dont care how many knees you’ve wrapped. honestly, i think it’s great that you support your training partners even if you dont plan on competing in the same feds. but why should i ask if you have gear experience when right HERE

http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1234667&pageNo=2#1241603

you said, never used gear wraps or a belt.

Above parallel box squat? Where did I say that?

And where did I compare an above parallel box squat (words I never used) with wearing gear? Are we typing in the same forum here or what?

I box squatted 500 lbs, raw for a single. “Box squat” now automatically means above parallel to you?
Just to clarify, it was 3" below parallel.

The 780-800lbs partials were done in a rack with the bar at sternum height.

And you don’t care how many knees I’ve wrapped? Super comeback! I’ve lifted with guys (and girls), spotted, discussed, helped on and off, wrapped, adjusted, and bascially got VERY familiar with how gear affects lifters leverages and weak/strong points.

Would you call a Ferarri mechanic that worked intimately with Ferraris of all different models, fixed, tuned and rebuilt the cars and prepped them for a race unknowledgable about the subject of Ferraris because he’s not the driver?

YOU probably would!

[/quote]

ok, my mistake, you were doing bottoms up squats, not high box squats.

as for the ferrari driver, when I was a kid some of my friends were really into cars, they could tell you anyithing about the speed, what type of engines, some of em worked on the family cars with their dads (no ferraris, of course, haha)

so let me ask YOU this - is a 12 year old a good driver just because he can do all of the above? he’s never gotten behind the wheel and experienced it firsthand. so yes, i would say that while the ferraris mechanic may be VERY knowledgable about the car itself, he doesnt really know anything about what its like to drive/race them.

86

[quote]nptitim wrote:
KBCThird wrote:
“the 3 best exercises to measure total body strength are considered to be the squat, bench press, and deadlift.”

considered by whom? you? I could find you PLENTY of people who feel the snatch and the c&j would be better suited to determine total body strength. I could find plenty of others who feel that a strongman show - with stones, deadlifts, overheads, farmers … the list goes on - would be a better representation of strength than PL.

And 500 has be c&J many times? I could be wrong on that, but I thought the number of people who had done it could be counted on one, MAYBE two hands. Fine, if im wrong, which is more impressive, a 550 c&j or a 920 DL?

Alright, let’s start from the beginning. The definition of maximal muscular strength is the ability of the muscle contract ONE time. This is measured by standardized tests such as your one rep max in the bench, squat, leg press, etc. The is different from maximal muscular endurance which is the ability of the muscle to contract REPEATEDLY, as measured by things like push-ups, situps, dips, pull-ups, etc. [/quote]

right, i agree BUT you said “test of Total Body Strength” not maximal strength

[quote]
The very reason why powerlifting came about was to test which person was the strongest overall in as short of time as possible. You could of course do a max for every muscle group but that type of competition would take forever, powerlifting as it is takes a full day just to do those 3 lifts. You can make an argument that OL is a better test of strength, but the big negatives there are that OL is very technical, the skill required to do OL is much higher than PL; OL doesn’t depending too much on chest strength so that is a weakness that it doesn’t measure; the two lifts are pretty similar; and it requires a high level of flexibility. In my opinion if you just had to pick one single exersise to measure total body strength, than that might work, but if you have access to more than one exercise you can come up with better selections. [/quote]

those are very good points, but you know there are OLs who, as you said, would make a good argument for their side as well.

[quote]
Strongman competitions, despite its name, are not actually the best test of pure strength because most of their events involve the other components of fitness, namely cardio and muscular endurance, as well as muscular strength. Because of this is not the best test of actual strength. Things like a farmers walk, truck pull, conan’s wheel, anything that takes more than few seconds is not measuring pure strength but a mix of abilities. Indeed some strongmen complain of that very fact. [/quote]

well, now you’re getting into which contest and where - the super series is absolutely lighter than IFSA shows. But I’ve never heard anyone say that the Arnold is too light. I absolutely agree that if it takes too long or moves too fast than its more endurance or speed, but i think you and i might differ in terms of where the cut off point is for moving from strength to endurance.

Furthermore, I dont know that Zydrunas Savickas is the strongest man in the world, (although he quite possibly is) but you cant tell me that he’s not one of them.

[quote]
Finally you are trying to compare two different lifts (the C&J and the DL) and determining who is overall stronger and you can’t do that. You have to have people do the same lifts to do that. You could combine the two to form a total and then that person would be stronger. You can, however, compare how rare one lift is vs the other, and in this case a 920 dl is more rare than a 550 C&J. FYI the world record for the C&J is about 580, it was set at 500 in 1970 to give you an idea of how many people have done that. The IPF world record for the deadlift is 899 (408 kg) set in 2004. I know some people have pulled more than that in other situations but no one has been able to do over 900 under IPF rules. [/quote]

right, but this is my point, what if you CANT get them to do the other lifts? I’ve never seen Reza Zadeh pull or bench, so i have NO IDEA how well he would do in that. I’ve never seen or heard of garry frank, donnie thomson or brian siders snatching, so who knows how they would do there.

As far as the IPF thing - to be honest, we’re just going to differ about how much legitimacy the IPF adds; obviously i dont think it is very much. To my mind the DL record is 971 set by bolton at the arnold. but again, if we just agree for the sake of argument I can rephrase the question - which is more impressive a 550 c&j or a 852.5 deadlift done under ipf conditions? (theyre both the same percent of the maxes you lifted about, htats why the number is weird.)

87

[quote]KBCThird wrote:
ok, my mistake, you were doing bottoms up squats, not high box squats.

as for the ferrari driver, when I was a kid some of my friends were really into cars, they could tell you anyithing about the speed, what type of engines, some of em worked on the family cars with their dads (no ferraris, of course, haha)

so let me ask YOU this - is a 12 year old a good driver just because he can do all of the above? he’s never gotten behind the wheel and experienced it firsthand. so yes, i would say that while the ferraris mechanic may be VERY knowledgable about the car itself, he doesnt really know anything about what its like to drive/race them.[/quote]

Are you ree-tart-ted? (retarded?)

So you’re saying I did bottom UP squats now? Where do you get this shit from, my God!

I did a full, deep, 3" below parallel SQUAT. You know, get in a rack, duck under a trap-height bar, arch it out, back up one step, full breath hold, shift hips back, sit back and down onto BELOW PARALLEL box, relax hip flexors, all else is tight, drive head into bar, start off below parallel box by moving head first, stand up, step forward one step, jam bar into j-hooks and smile!

Jeepers H. Cripes do you actually take time to READ my posts before responding?

Do you need to drive a car to know how it works? What makes it tick? How it performs in myriad situations? How to tweak it for maximum performance. NO! You get constsnt feedback from the driver and adjust, learn and figure out.

Who knows more about the Space Shuttle? The engineers that spend a majority of thier time interacting with the thing or the astronauts?

I’m getting the feeling that I know more about gear’s performance than YOU do.

And I thought MY analogies were bad!

88

[quote]KBCThird wrote:
right, i agree BUT you said “test of Total Body Strength” not maximal strength

well, now you’re getting into which contest and where - the super series is absolutely lighter than IFSA shows. But I’ve never heard anyone say that the Arnold is too light. I absolutely agree that if it takes too long or moves too fast than its more endurance or speed, but i think you and i might differ in terms of where the cut off point is for moving from strength to endurance.

Furthermore, I dont know that Zydrunas Savickas is the strongest man in the world, (although he quite possibly is) but you cant tell me that he’s not one of them.

right, but this is my point, what if you CANT get them to do the other lifts? I’ve never seen Reza Zadeh pull or bench, so i have NO IDEA how well he would do in that. I’ve never seen or heard of garry frank, donnie thomson or brian siders snatching, so who knows how they would do there.

[/quote]

I appreciate the discussion but I feel like we are debating about operational definitions. You seem to have your own operational definition of strength that you haven’t shared with me. To me when I say Powerlifting is the best measure of total body strength I mean it is the best measure of maximal total body strength, I figured that was implied. It all comes down to energy systems.

The phosphagen system is our most powerful system, and depending on who you read it lasts full strength for 5-10 seconds, so if any event lasts longer than that, it is not testing pure strength but a combination of other abilities. That is why there really aren’t that many strongman events, regardless of the organization, where the events are that short and thus measure maximal strength with very little involvement of other physical abilities.

Finally if people don’t compete at the same exercises you can’t make an estimation of whom is stronger, just like we could argue all day about whether Michael Jordan or Tiger Woods is a better athlete. However keep in mind since powerlifting is the best measure of strength, whomever is the best powerlifter is the strongest person in the world. If someone else wants that title they need to come and compete in powerlifting and win. If they don’t it doesn’t mean they are not highly skilled, very competitive, extremely strong athletes, but they are not the strongest person in the world.

89

[quote]derek wrote:
KBCThird wrote:
ok, my mistake, you were doing bottoms up squats, not high box squats.

as for the ferrari driver, when I was a kid some of my friends were really into cars, they could tell you anyithing about the speed, what type of engines, some of em worked on the family cars with their dads (no ferraris, of course, haha)

so let me ask YOU this - is a 12 year old a good driver just because he can do all of the above? he’s never gotten behind the wheel and experienced it firsthand. so yes, i would say that while the ferraris mechanic may be VERY knowledgable about the car itself, he doesnt really know anything about what its like to drive/race them.

Are you ree-tart-ted? (retarded?)

So you’re saying I did bottom UP squats now? Where do you get this shit from, my God!

I did a full, deep, 3" below parallel SQUAT. You know, get in a rack, duck under a trap-height bar, arch it out, back up one step, full breath hold, shift hips back, sit back and down onto BELOW PARALLEL box, relax hip flexors, all else is tight, drive head into bar, start off below parallel box by moving head first, stand up, step forward one step, jam bar into j-hooks and smile!

Jeepers H. Cripes do you actually take time to READ my posts before responding?

Do you need to drive a car to know how it works? What makes it tick? How it performs in myriad situations? How to tweak it for maximum performance. NO! You get constsnt feedback from the driver and adjust, learn and figure out.

Who knows more about the Space Shuttle? The engineers that spend a majority of thier time interacting with the thing or the astronauts?

I’m getting the feeling that I know more about gear’s performance than YOU do.

And I thought MY analogies were bad!
[/quote]

“The 780-800lbs partials were done in a rack with the bar at sternum height.”

You already said your max squat is 500 (or thereabouts, im not going to look back for the exact number) so whatever exercise you are describing in the above quote is a restricted ROM exercise. It sounded like squats off the pins, ie bottoms up squats. Apparently i misunderstood, my mistake, but you couldve been a little clearer. whatever they were, it was a partial ROM and THAT was my only point.

second of all, what is this about - the knowing minute details about the gear you’ve gleaned from second-hand info gear or having actual first-hand knowledge of the gears performance? maybe you could tell me all about the subtle nuances, and differences between metals, inzers and karins, but unless you’ve put gear on, you have zero practical knowledge - ie knowledge that actually serves a useful purpose. how hard is it to understand this:

Reading about, talking about and thinking about activities - whether they be lifting with gear, racing ferraris, or piloting the shuttle - IS NOT THE SAME AS ACTUALLY DOING IT

90

[quote]nptitim wrote:
KBCThird wrote:
right, i agree BUT you said “test of Total Body Strength” not maximal strength

well, now you’re getting into which contest and where - the super series is absolutely lighter than IFSA shows. But I’ve never heard anyone say that the Arnold is too light. I absolutely agree that if it takes too long or moves too fast than its more endurance or speed, but i think you and i might differ in terms of where the cut off point is for moving from strength to endurance.

Furthermore, I dont know that Zydrunas Savickas is the strongest man in the world, (although he quite possibly is) but you cant tell me that he’s not one of them.

right, but this is my point, what if you CANT get them to do the other lifts? I’ve never seen Reza Zadeh pull or bench, so i have NO IDEA how well he would do in that. I’ve never seen or heard of garry frank, donnie thomson or brian siders snatching, so who knows how they would do there.

I appreciate the discussion but I feel like we are debating about operational definitions. You seem to have your own operational definition of strength that you haven’t shared with me. To me when I say Powerlifting is the best measure of total body strength I mean it is the best measure of maximal total body strength, I figured that was implied. It all comes down to energy systems.

The phosphagen system is our most powerful system, and depending on who you read it lasts full strength for 5-10 seconds, so if any event lasts longer than that, it is not testing pure strength but a combination of other abilities. That is why there really aren’t that many strongman events, regardless of the organization, where the events are that short and thus measure maximal strength with very little involvement of other physical abilities. [/quote]

I completely appreciate what you are saying as regards medleys, but even some “moving” events can last under 10 seconds - the idea being that the stronger you are the faster you’ll do it. A perfect example was the frame carry at the 2004 armold: nobody completed it in the 30 seconds alloted, some got less than a third of the way - except for Zydrunas, who did it in 8.soemthing seconds (really incredibel to watch by the way.) So that would theoretically be within the 5-10 second guidelines.

see, to me the first part of this paragraph contradicts itself. you say that unless two people compete on the same lifts, you cant compare them, but then you go ahead and say the best powerlifter is the strongest man in the world - despite the fact that a comparison to other strength athletes is impossible.

There are other strength athletes who could make a legit claim; as you said, some o-lifters could make an argument, i feel strongmen could as well.

i think we will just have to agree to disagree. :-/

91

[quote]KBCThird wrote:
Reading about, talking about and thinking about activities - whether they be lifting with gear, racing ferraris, or piloting the shuttle - IS NOT THE SAME AS ACTUALLY DOING IT[/quote]

I must have been confused. I could’ve sworn you had assumed I had no experience with how gear works. If that was the case you’d be wrong which is the point I’ve been trying to make for the last three days.

92

[quote]derek wrote:

I remember the time (1 and a 1/2 years ago) when I box squatted 500 raw, I was doing partials with 785-800 for a triple. So training to improve your top end doesn’t carry all that much weight.
[/quote]

93

[quote]derek wrote:

I remember the time (1 and a 1/2 years ago) when I box squatted 500 raw, I was doing partials with 785-800 for a triple. So training to improve your top end doesn’t carry all that much weight.
[/quote]

Ooops, forgot to add my commentary…

See? a 500 lbs raw box squat and partials with 785-800 for a triple.

Where’d you get so confused? 500 lb raw box squat (no mention of partials there) and then I mentioned the heavy partials I did with 780-800. If you want to debate, you need to arm yourself with the right info.

And remember? The debate at that time was about the top ROM. So I told you how heavy I was squatting as compared to my top ROM squats.

Again… simple.

94

[quote]derek wrote:
derek wrote:

I remember the time (1 and a 1/2 years ago) when I box squatted 500 raw, I was doing partials with 785-800 for a triple. So training to improve your top end doesn’t carry all that much weight.

Ooops, forgot to add my commentary…

See? a 500 lbs raw box squat and partials with 785-800 for a triple.

Where’d you get so confused? %00 lb raw box squat (no mention of partials there) and then I mentioned the heavy partials I did with 780-800. If you want to debate, you need to arm yourself with the right info.

And remember? The debate at that time was about the top ROM. So I told you how heavy I was squatting as compared to my top ROM squats.

Again… simple.

[/quote]

Why are you changing this into a debate about what you can do??

95

Can I whip my wang into this pissing match? What about we say, sure, go ahead and wear any gear you want in a PL meet, but the gear cannot change. The gear you have on for your bench is the same gear allowed on the DL is the same as the squat? No more, no less.

96

No one really cares except for the guys arguing about it.

97

[quote]Hanley wrote:

Why are you changing this into a debate about what you can do??[/quote]

Hey, jackass, we are debateing issues here that were brought up in this thread. I was talking about my firsthand knowledge of training the lockout on squats and one’s increasing leverages toward the top.

I have experience in how one can 1/4 squat MUCH more weight than a full squat gear or no gear. And that was the subject at the time.

Open your eyes and pay attention before you type another ill-informed comment.

Or, how do you say?.. STFU?

98

[quote]tom63 wrote:
No one really cares except for the guys arguing about it.[/quote]

Great deductive reasoning there, tom. Isn’t that the people you’d expect to be arguing about any given topic?

99

[quote]derek wrote:
Hanley wrote:

Why are you changing this into a debate about what you can do??

Hey, jackass, we are debateing issues here that were brought up in this thread. I was talking about my firsthand knowledge of training the lockout on squats and one’s increasing leverages toward the top.

I have experience in how one can 1/4 squat MUCH more weight than a full squat gear or no gear. And that was the subject at the time.

Open your eyes and pay attention before you type another ill-informed comment.

Or, how do you say?.. STFU?[/quote]

Fuck you, you idiot. I haven’t said anything insulting in this whole thread. You want to trade insults now??

How about this… Aren’t you the guy who posted all those pictures of you training “strongman” movements with the old ladies and their daughters? Aren’t you spending most of your time training soccer players and their moms?

Perhaps you should be spending more time on business development and less time running your mouth on this forum. Given the amount of time you seem to have on your hands, perhaps we should begin a new thread counting down the days until your going out of business sale.

100

[quote]Hanley wrote:
Fuck you, you idiot. I haven’t said anything insulting in this whole thread. You want to trade insults now??

How about this… Aren’t you the guy who posted all those pictures of you training “strongman” movements with the old ladies and their daughters? Aren’t you spending most of your time training soccer players and their moms?

Perhaps you should be spending more time on business development and less time running your mouth on this forum. Given the amount of time you seem to have on your hands, perhaps we should begin a new thread counting down the days until your going out of business sale.[/quote]

Actually you have, you idiot. To me remember? It was only a post or two above this.

Actually I’ve been doing this for over 10 years. I have an enormous following in my neck of the woods.

And next weekend, I am expanding because I am quickly outgrowing my current location.

If you can indeed count, you can start now but I’d wager you’ll forget where you were somewhere around 67 or 68 and have to start your count all over again.

Read my responses about legitimate issues on this site. I’m one of the most helpful people (to those that deserve it, anyway) if I feel I can add anything useful.

You being a dick and me responding in kind sure seemed to have riled you up huh?

Yeah, I train a lot of middle aged women (and thier daughters (very astute of you or maybe a lucky guess!)

I’ll wager that most of them could whip your ass in strongman. And you sure harbor a lot of anger. And since you’ve got two whole years training under your belt, you must really know your stuff.

And as for all the free time I have to “run my mouth”. If my math is correct, I’ve posted 1.3 times per day since I started in these forums. Do you consider that excessive since I do this for a living?

Oh, and I make my own schedule and set time aside for this. How 'bout you?