Most Recent Milo

Training Powerlifting
61

I agree if two people have the EXACT same lifts, and one is much heavier than the other, than the lighter guys lifts are “more impressive”. However, if the “fat ass” produces a bigger bench, than, in my book, he is still the better bencher. EVEN IF the other guy has better “relative” strength.

Cheers,
Pat

[quote]Julius_Caesar wrote:
There’s also one other thing to measuring strength and this is bodyweight. I mean if I am 188 and am pressing 285, this is more impressive than some fat ass benching his bodyweight@285 or 300. Especially if they are heaving it off of their fat stomachs.[/quote]

62

[quote]KBCThird wrote:

benching 285 is not impressive unless you’re a woman, 16 years old, or going through chemo.

and if you’re looking to impress others, wouldnt you rather have them say “thats impressive” not “thats impressive FOR SOMEONE HIS SIZE”[/quote]

So everyone’s lifts should just be compared regardless of their weights? That is retarded. You are an idiotic cocksucker.

My raw bench isn’t that good because my fucking arms are long, but even that being said, I still see fatsos at commercial gyms who weigh 100 pounds more than I do, who heave or bounce it off of their lard guts.

What the fuck are your lifts, Mr. World’s Strongest man?

63

[quote]Tags wrote:
I agree if two people have the EXACT same lifts, and one is much heavier than the other, than the lighter guys lifts are “more impressive”. However, if the “fat ass” produces a bigger bench, than, in my book, he is still the better bencher. EVEN IF the other guy has better “relative” strength.

Cheers,
Pat
[/quote]

Very well… But when I see a cellulite supremacist like Gene Rychlak benching in his gear, I wonder if he could even do a double bodyweight raw bench press…

64

[quote]Julius_Caesar wrote:
KBCThird wrote:

benching 285 is not impressive unless you’re a woman, 16 years old, or going through chemo.

and if you’re looking to impress others, wouldnt you rather have them say “thats impressive” not “thats impressive FOR SOMEONE HIS SIZE”

So everyone’s lifts should just be compared regardless of their weights? That is retarded. You are an idiotic cocksucker.

My raw bench isn’t that good because my fucking arms are long, but even that being said, I still see fatsos at commercial gyms who weigh 100 pounds more than I do, who heave or bounce it off of their lard guts.

What the fuck are your lifts, Mr. World’s Strongest man?
[/quote]

oooh, and you’re a poopy head.

so your arms are long, huh? poor baby, more excuses.

and I bench 360@230 then again, I benched 355 at 210, so maybe that’s “more impressive” for you?

oh, and if you want to compare yourself to me, you’d have to go back to when I was 17 years old and weighed 180lbs (at 6’1", not exactly a stocky build) and benched 280. So congratulations, you beat a 17 year old kid - who you outweighed by 8 lbs, since youre so big on bodyweight - by 5 lbs

65

[quote]KBCThird wrote:
Julius_Caesar wrote:
KBCThird wrote:

benching 285 is not impressive unless you’re a woman, 16 years old, or going through chemo.

and if you’re looking to impress others, wouldnt you rather have them say “thats impressive” not “thats impressive FOR SOMEONE HIS SIZE”

So everyone’s lifts should just be compared regardless of their weights? That is retarded. You are an idiotic cocksucker.

My raw bench isn’t that good because my fucking arms are long, but even that being said, I still see fatsos at commercial gyms who weigh 100 pounds more than I do, who heave or bounce it off of their lard guts.

What the fuck are your lifts, Mr. World’s Strongest man?

oooh, and you’re a poopy head.

so your arms are long, huh? poor baby, more excuses.

and I bench 360@230 then again, I benched 355 at 210, so maybe that’s “more impressive” for you?

oh, and if you want to compare yourself to me, you’d have to go back to when I was 17 years old and weighed 180lbs (at 6’1", not exactly a stocky build) and benched 280. So congratulations, you beat a 17 year old kid - who you outweighed by 8 lbs, since youre so big on bodyweight - by 5 lbs

[/quote]

360@230 isn’t that impressive either, especially since you are a needledick.

66

[quote]KBCThird wrote:
ridiculous. so you are just as impressed by a 500 lb squat to parallel as you are by a 500 lb squat atg?!?!
[/quote]

As I said in my post. I kind of figured we were talking about the same lift. ATG to ATG or paralle to parallel. Did you skip that part?

67

[quote]KBCThird wrote:

because you didnt JUST put the suit on and immediately add 250 lbs to your squat - or the bench for that matter - you had to work at improving the top end of your ROM.
[/quote]

Oh yeah I forgot the top end of your ROM wasn’t any stronger than the mid-range and bottom end. Wait, it IS stronger. Must have something to do with better leverages or sumthin’.

I remember the time (1 and a 1/2 years ago) when I box squatted 500 raw, I was doing partials with 785-800 for a triple. So training to improve your top end doesn’t carry all that much weight.

68

[quote]KBCThird wrote:
If you’ve ever used gear, then I shouldnt have to explain this to you. If you’ve never used gear, then you may never understand the absolutely crushing feeling you have when you have a heckuva lotta weight - way more than your raw max - crushing down on you.[/quote]

Never used gear, belt or wraps. I figure upper 700 to 800 lbs. (way more than my raw max) was crushing enough.

69

[quote]Julius_Caesar wrote:

So everyone’s lifts should just be compared regardless of their weights? That is retarded. You are an idiotic cocksucker.

[/quote]

hahahhaa, oh god that was classic. Seriously though, is there some point at which someone becomes so much of an annoying prick that we can all agree that he should be banned from the forums?

70

[quote]KBCThird wrote:
no, it DOESNT make me stronger than him, it makes me BETTER than him AT THAT LIFT. There is technical proficiency in all these lifts. You hint at as muchy when you say “stronger in that lift.” So let me ask you, if you squat more than me, and i deadlift more than you, who is stronger? Not “stronger ata particular lift” just STRONGER? Theres no way to know.

Or think about this - which is stronger, a 500 lb C&J or a 950 DL?

[/quote]

I agree with you about the 4 divisions in one federation, that would be cool. I also agree that right now people might want to watch the freaks but in the future as gear gets even better and the lifts are more distorted then it might not be the case. This already happened to female bodybuilding as the fan base left and it could happen to male bodybuilding, I don’t know.

Regarding strength vs being better at a lift than someone, they are the same thing. There is an element of skill in all lifts and all displays of strength, that is the just the way it is. If you disagree provide me with an example of a display of strength that involves no skill.

If you are trying to find Total Body Strength, pretty much everybody agrees that one specific exercise is not sufficient to test total body strength. Instead a selection of exercises is needed, and surprise surprise the 3 best exercises to measure total body strength are considered to be the squat, bench press, and deadlift.

That is why powerlifters compete with their total, so if you total more than me in a competition you are stronger than me, no questions asked. There is no debate. It doesn’t mean you will beat me in every single test of strength we can construct, but on this generally accepted measure of total body strength you won.

So back to your example of comparing just the squat and the deadlift, I would add each person’s lift together and whomever had the best total of those 2 exercises would be stronger.

Finally regarding a 500 lb clean and jerk and a 950 deadlift, no one in the IPF has ever deadlifted 950, whereas people have cleaned and jerked well over 500 many times, so a 950 dl would qualify as a more rare strength event and put that person in a more elite category.

71

[quote]Julius_Caesar wrote:
KBCThird wrote:
Julius_Caesar wrote:
KBCThird wrote:

benching 285 is not impressive unless you’re a woman, 16 years old, or going through chemo.

and if you’re looking to impress others, wouldnt you rather have them say “thats impressive” not “thats impressive FOR SOMEONE HIS SIZE”

So everyone’s lifts should just be compared regardless of their weights? That is retarded. You are an idiotic cocksucker.

My raw bench isn’t that good because my fucking arms are long, but even that being said, I still see fatsos at commercial gyms who weigh 100 pounds more than I do, who heave or bounce it off of their lard guts.

What the fuck are your lifts, Mr. World’s Strongest man?

oooh, and you’re a poopy head.

so your arms are long, huh? poor baby, more excuses.

and I bench 360@230 then again, I benched 355 at 210, so maybe that’s “more impressive” for you?

oh, and if you want to compare yourself to me, you’d have to go back to when I was 17 years old and weighed 180lbs (at 6’1", not exactly a stocky build) and benched 280. So congratulations, you beat a 17 year old kid - who you outweighed by 8 lbs, since youre so big on bodyweight - by 5 lbs

360@230 isn’t that impressive either, especially since you are a needledick.

[/quote]

you are absolutely right, i dont think its impressive at all. At least I seem to be aware of this however, adn am working to improve on it. do you do anything besides complain on message boards?

72

[quote]derek wrote:
KBCThird wrote:
ridiculous. so you are just as impressed by a 500 lb squat to parallel as you are by a 500 lb squat atg?!?!

As I said in my post. I kind of figured we were talking about the same lift. ATG to ATG or paralle to parallel. Did you skip that part?
[/quote]

if you assume that the people talking about the squat are comparing apples to apples, why would you assume that the people benching are comparing apples (shirted lifts) to oranges (raw)? Your hypothetical of the guy who benches raw in a geared meet carries no weight, since nobody who entered a geared meet raw could reasonably expect to win

73

[quote]derek wrote:
KBCThird wrote:

because you didnt JUST put the suit on and immediately add 250 lbs to your squat - or the bench for that matter - you had to work at improving the top end of your ROM.

Oh yeah I forgot the top end of your ROM wasn’t any stronger than the mid-range and bottom end. Wait, it IS stronger. Must have something to do with better leverages or sumthin’.

I remember the time (1 and a 1/2 years ago) when I box squatted 500 raw, I was doing partials with 785-800 for a triple. So training to improve your top end doesn’t carry all that much weight.
[/quote]

[sigh] OF COURSE you get immediate carryover from gear - but not 250 lbs worth. wearing gear is NOT the same as limiting your ROM. You might know that if you ever bothered to try it - and in your next post you admit that you never have - but you havent so youre just hypothesizing. your whole argument is bull

74

[quote]nptitim wrote:
KBCThird wrote:
no, it DOESNT make me stronger than him, it makes me BETTER than him AT THAT LIFT. There is technical proficiency in all these lifts. You hint at as muchy when you say “stronger in that lift.” So let me ask you, if you squat more than me, and i deadlift more than you, who is stronger? Not “stronger ata particular lift” just STRONGER? Theres no way to know.

Or think about this - which is stronger, a 500 lb C&J or a 950 DL?

I agree with you about the 4 divisions in one federation, that would be cool. I also agree that right now people might want to watch the freaks but in the future as gear gets even better and the lifts are more distorted then it might not be the case. This already happened to female bodybuilding as the fan base left and it could happen to male bodybuilding, I don’t know.

Regarding strength vs being better at a lift than someone, they are the same thing. There is an element of skill in all lifts and all displays of strength, that is the just the way it is. If you disagree provide me with an example of a display of strength that involves no skill.

If you are trying to find Total Body Strength, pretty much everybody agrees that one specific exercise is not sufficient to test total body strength. Instead a selection of exercises is needed, and surprise surprise the 3 best exercises to measure total body strength are considered to be the squat, bench press, and deadlift.

That is why powerlifters compete with their total, so if you total more than me in a competition you are stronger than me, no questions asked. There is no debate. It doesn’t mean you will beat me in every single test of strength we can construct, but on this generally accepted measure of total body strength you won.

So back to your example of comparing just the squat and the deadlift, I would add each person’s lift together and whomever had the best total of those 2 exercises would be stronger.

Finally regarding a 500 lb clean and jerk and a 950 deadlift, no one in the IPF has ever deadlifted 950, whereas people have cleaned and jerked well over 500 many times, so a 950 dl would qualify as a more rare strength event and put that person in a more elite category.[/quote]

you raise a good point about female bodybuilding being beyond the pale. will PL go that way? time will tell.

“the 3 best exercises to measure total body strength are considered to be the squat, bench press, and deadlift.”

considered by whom? you? I could find you PLENTY of people who feel the snatch and the c&j would be better suited to determine total body strength. I could find plenty of others who feel that a strongman show - with stones, deadlifts, overheads, farmers … the list goes on - would be a better representation of strength than PL.

And 500 has be c&J many times? I could be wrong on that, but I thought the number of people who had done it could be counted on one, MAYBE two hands. Fine, if im wrong, which is more impressive, a 550 c&j or a 920 DL?

75

[quote]KBCThird wrote:

you are absolutely right, i dont think its impressive at all. At least I seem to be aware of this however, adn am working to improve on it. do you do anything besides complain on message boards?

[/quote]

My point wasn’t to bash either one of our lifts. My point was that you have to figure a number of things into a lift including bodyweight. Another thing is gear, both material and chemical.

76

[quote]KBCThird wrote:
[sigh] OF COURSE you get immediate carryover from gear - but not 250 lbs worth. wearing gear is NOT the same as limiting your ROM. You might know that if you ever bothered to try it - and in your next post you admit that you never have - but you havent so youre just hypothesizing. your whole argument is bull[/quote]

“wearing gear is NOT the same as limiting your ROM”

And how does THAT statement even relate to my argument? And what the hell was is supposed to mean anyway?

All I can say to that one is “NO SHIT, REALLY?”.

I am very aquainted with gear and what it does/doesn’t do. I trained a powerlifter for his last meet both without gear, then as the meet drew closer, with more and better/tighter gear and wraps. (I got the best forearm pumps just getting the straps over his shoulders and I can wrap a pretty mean knee!). Plus, I trained with the powerlifters I mentioned in my post in which I posted pictures of my gym. http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=898077
and they all wore gear to varying degrees when we trained.

You can even see my 2, 3 and 4 boards in the back of one of the pics.

So you may want to ASK if I have experience with gear before you assume otherwise.

77

Powerlifters wear gear because powerlifters wear gear. Pretty simple I guess.

And as long as we can all agree that powerlifting totals are as high as they are because the gear does a substantial percentage of it, there’s nothing to discuss.

78

[quote]KBCThird wrote:
And 500 has be c&J many times? I could be wrong on that, but I thought the number of people who had done it could be counted on one, MAYBE two hands. Fine, if im wrong, which is more impressive, a 550 c&j or a 920 DL?[/quote]

I know Ken Patera did it in like 1970 or '71. I’m sure in 35 years, it’s been done MANY times.

79

[quote]derek wrote:
KBCThird wrote:
[sigh] OF COURSE you get immediate carryover from gear - but not 250 lbs worth. wearing gear is NOT the same as limiting your ROM. You might know that if you ever bothered to try it - and in your next post you admit that you never have - but you havent so youre just hypothesizing. your whole argument is bull

“wearing gear is NOT the same as limiting your ROM”

And how does THAT statement even relate to my argument? And what the hell was is supposed to mean anyway?

[/quote]

Your argument is that you apparently know what wearing gear feels like cos you have used a weight well above your max for partials.

I belive KBC is saying that having a weight above your max in an advantagous leverage position is different to having a weight wel above your max in the bottom position of a squat. I really don’t see how you could possibly contest this point.

80

[quote]Hanley wrote:
derek wrote:
KBCThird wrote:
[sigh] OF COURSE you get immediate carryover from gear - but not 250 lbs worth. wearing gear is NOT the same as limiting your ROM. You might know that if you ever bothered to try it - and in your next post you admit that you never have - but you havent so youre just hypothesizing. your whole argument is bull

“wearing gear is NOT the same as limiting your ROM”

And how does THAT statement even relate to my argument? And what the hell was is supposed to mean anyway?

Your argument is that you apparently know what wearing gear feels like cos you have used a weight well above your max for partials.

I belive KBC is saying that having a weight above your max in an advantagous leverage position is different to having a weight wel above your max in the bottom position of a squat. I really don’t see how you could possibly contest this point.[/quote]

thank goodness someone got it. yes, htats exactly what I’m saying. my statement about gear differing from limiting the ROM is referring to your post about equating your above-parallel box squat with wearing gear.

and i dont care how many knees you’ve wrapped. honestly, i think it’s great that you support your training partners even if you dont plan on competing in the same feds. but why should i ask if you have gear experience when right HERE

http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1234667&pageNo=2#1241603

you said, never used gear wraps or a belt.