Moral Question?

No, Colin, I realize I need to define my own morals. My own morals tell me it’s wrong to lie, but as I pointed out earlier I haven’t lied or said anything deceptive. I’m actually a bit affronted that you keep inferring that I’m lying.


What I’m interested in are moral principles that guide actions. Actually, I would be interested to know why you think what I’ve done is lying?


Obviously, I do not have a firm conviction that what I’ve done is right, or I wouldn’t have asked the question. However, I also am not sure what I did is wrong either. Color me confused. That’s why I asked for the “why” behind anyone’s opinion.


I really like all three women concerned, but I guess the underlying message from the majority of the posters is I really need to narrow things down and stick to one? And the reason is because the relationships have gotten physical, and that means one has to make a decision? Is that right? Is the underlying principle that is the crux of the decision that it’s OK to date a lot of women as long as you’re not getting too physical with any of them?


And PS Colin, I graduated from undergrad a long time ago – no academic research here, just a guy looking for some answers in his own life.

Do all (or most) women really think that way? I mean, especially if you’ve only dated a few times, and nothing at all has been said about exclusivity? I mean, I can recall with at least two of them even swapping stories about previous “bad” dates, which would imply they at least knew I was dating other people, if not necessarily continuing to do so.


As a guy, I always assume that, at least in the beginning (and I do consider 3-4 dates over 4-5 weeks to be very much in the beginning), that the woman probably has other guys around who are in the same general position I am – basically still there after a few dates while she gets to know us.


Again, I want to know if the morality switched when I slept with them – would it have been different if it was everything but actual sex? How do women look at it? Thanks.

Yes, that’s how I was looking at it originally – that because it was so early on into things that I wasn’t trangressing any unstated boundaries by not making myself immediately exclusive upon sex.


As for your pragmatic advice, you think I should talk to them soon about exclusivity. Are you of the opinion that the talk should be one of a “complete disclosure” nature (tell everything up to this point about the others) or do you think it should be more about her general interest in exclusivity?

I have known quite a few women that only wanted sex. The guys that wanted more than that from them got ditched. To believe that all women want the same thing is a bit simpleminded. If a woman is going to give it up on the first couple dates without any mention of exclusivity, well, she shouldn’t get her feelings hurt.

Do you think that morality has a divine origin or that it has a human origin (whether sown into the fabric of humanity/nature or a human construct)?

If you believe that our values and morals have their genesis on the plane of the anthropological, then why ask the question you have asked? Simply choose what you want to do (i.e., what you want to be the right thing) and to hell with the opinion’s of others. If you feel it is right, then, in the words of Captain Picard, “make it so.” After all, if we construct our own morality, then why not be an individual and create your own. Why follow all the sheep and ask “what ought I to do?”—none of the sheep possess any moral authority that is more authoritative than your own; you alone are in the primary position to govern your own thoughts/actions. In fact, if you inquire of the herd, they will only give you their own brand of morality that typically favors them (assuages their fears, looks after their interest, strokes their vanities, and is designed to keep you at their level). And, you will have as many opinions as you have sheep (although some agreement between them will obtain).

If you believe that right and wrong descend from above, then I would suggest you begin a spiritual quest to engage the moral code of one of the world’s great religions and incorporate it into your life. Most of these will probably forbid sex before marriage at all—so your original question has a moral question mark put against it at the outset. You will become very unpopular if you do this. Why? Because you will actually believe in something to your core and will follow this despite what others think or say. Others will find this unbearable for various reasons (pride, jealousy, fear being just a few). The moral doctrines of most of the great world religions don’t coincide well with contemporary Western society. If you have integrity and really practice what your religion teaches, you may find yourself being marginalized; many can’t bear this so they compromise and, in the end, think their religion morally bankrupt and not themselves.

Or, there is the third “slacker” option—which is what most do. This is the “follow the herd” option. Don’t allow yourself to be bothered by all this sort of thing I’m talking of. Just lazily consort with the opinions of others, after you ask a handful, you will always find those who will basically agree with you and then you can justify anything you want and all the while hid from yourself the fact that you are doing this; this way you never have to take responsibility. Console yourself with the fiction that since others say this is the right or proper thing to do then it must be the case. From time to time you will find more that disagree with you than agree with you, at these times you may have to desist from some action but then you can always use this as proof that you are enlightened and a moral person.

Some may tell you that the option of spirituality/religion is nothing other than the first option outline above (constructing values/morality for yourself) dressed up in grand clothing and ensconced in time honored teachings. They will argue that religion is just a mask; a mask that hides the fact that right and wrong are really arbitrary and truly are simply relative (just like they are in the “constructed” model). But most are not really in a position to say this. They are not privy to the experience of the power of such a religion. That is, those who truly believe in their religions enter into a domain of experience that puts them in a whole different class altogether. They truly believe that what they are doing is right and this brings a whole dimension of certitude and singleness of purpose that escapes the “constructionist” types. What I am saying is that when you look at it from the outside, the truly spiritual person, seems rather na?ve and misguided. Somewhat to be pitied for they enter into an allegiance with seemingly silly and outdated notions. But from the inside, the spiritual enter a whole new world that operates on an entirely different set of rules, within a fundamentally different framework, a world that certifies itself on its own terms. Thus, those on the outside are, in one sense, are in no position to judge those within this new world and framework since they know not of what they speak and judge.

Lastly, others will eschew the term religion and quest for some sort of spirituality of their own making. This is probably the worst form of “constructionism” out there. Because now you have those who invent their own morality but have coupled it with a quasi-religious fervor! They bind themselves to nothing but aspire to be “spiritual.” Beware these types.

I too have known girls who would dump guys who were looking for more than a roll in the hay – as a matter of fact, just a few years back I was one of those guys who got dumped while wanting more and assuming all women did want more if they had sex with you. I got dumped flat on my ass actually.


Which really was too bad, because I’m sure we could have had a perfectly satisfying physical relationship had I not simply acted on that assumption and tried to do what I assumed was gentlemanly. She was one of those girls a lot more into the pursuit than the capture, if you know the type.


But as to the immediate question, that is another problem unstated in this dilemma: I also don’t want to come on too strong (emotionally that is) and scare anyone off. Ah, why is this stuff always so damn complicated?

I discussed this topic with my wife to get her percpective on it. She pretty much agrees that if no exclusivity is talked about then it can’t be assumed. As far as feelings go the best thing to do is talk about them whether they are serious or not. That way both people are going on accurate assumptions about how the other feels. Whether you reveal the existance of the other women to each other or not is up to you. You could let each know that they aren’t the only one and leave it at that. They really don’t need to know any more details to decide where things are going for them.

In our culture sex generally does imply exclusivity, unless it’s something like a one night stand. So chances are, you have mislead your dates–i.e., they would be surprised to learn you are having sex with other women. As for whether or not you should continue deceiving them, that’s up for you to decide, but keep this in mind: (1) the longer you keep this up, the more likely it is that one will find out about the others; (2) when you deceive someone as you are doing, you no longer view them as an equal, and having a meaningful relationship with them becomes quite impossible.

Hey Anon,

Why don’t you just take some time off and wait. Get your shit together and try to enjoy being alone. You know, be by yourself. It seems obvious to me that you are on the rebound and these woman are just toys so to speak. I’ve been divorced twice and it sucks!! So I waited(2 years)until I felt ready to pursue the fairer sex once again. I didn’t care what my friends or family thought because who’s life is it anyway? There is no shame in taking some time off. Only fools do what you are doing. You are only asking for heartache once again not to mention some pissed off woman. A man without a conscious doesn’t give a shit about anything, are you that type? AKA Bill Clinton!

underlying moral principle :


Do unto others as you would have them do unto you


would you realy feel good if you knew all three of them are fucking two other guys,
so youd’ be sharing rotting mucosal excretions, yeasts, viruses and bacteria with six other dudes.

Some people are still focusing on physical/health related stuff, but in my opinion that’s not pertinent to my dilemma. From that perspective, what is the difference between just going out and finding a bunch of one-night stands? Or from having a bunch of one-night stands and then starting to date someone the next week? While I’m not saying there are no risks in having multiple partners, I’m saying that’s not applicable to my particular moral issue.


Second, I was talking to a friend of mine yesterday, and he’s a person apt to analyze things from the legal perspective. He said that generally silence on something isn’t a problem unless there is a duty to disclose – is there an implied duty to disclose once you’ve slept with someone? What do women think about this? Do the women generally think I was being duplicitous or deceitful simply by being silent?


Finally, on a pragmatic level, I’d like to thank SteelyEyes and Nephorm most of all for some good common sense. Sometimes I get too caught up in the abstract when I think about these things, and I can talk myself right around in circles until I’ve tied myself in metaphorical knots. I think I really do like the one woman quite a lot, and am interested in pursuing something with her – albeit proceeding at somewhat less than a breakneck pace.

Given that, I probably should discuss things with the other two, just so that I'm not leading them on. I wouldn't feel right about keeping them around as "safeties" or something -- I always dislike it when I see girls doing that to my friends, so I shouldn't do it here.

Thanks to all of you for helping me to think through this. Merry Christmas (Some say it lasts from yesterday through January 6)!

You obviously have answered your own question in that you are too ashamed of your actions to post your regular handle for fear of us lowering our opinion of you. You don’t want our input an any so-called underlying moral principle, you want our approval. Go for it mate. It sounds like the four of you are well suited for each other. My $.02.

Anonymous, the women I talk to are in their 30’s so maybe we do not pass ourselves out as casually as some of the younger women I have talked to. Not saying this is right or wrong for either group. The 30’s group seemed to think that 3-4 dates over a 4 weeks was not much of a commitment to them but that they would not have slept with you either under that circumstance. But it was funny how we all agreed that if we had say, several dates in a row such as sat, sun, wed, fri we might consider sex by the 3rd weekend. We agreed we might take a chance because we would know if we felt a connection with you by then. Now some of the mid- 20’s women thought what went on with you and your women was fine. I really am not sure if it is a morals thing or just a different experiences that are involved. People are funny, what is okay for one might not be for another. How many relationships someone has been involved in and what happened to them shapes how they react to different situations. Maybe that is what makes the difference between not only the sexes but between the ages of the women I spoke to. If you wish to play the field and are honest with the women you do see then it is up to you and them to do what is best for all concerned. You do not need to give every detail as someone else said, I forget who but if you talk to these women and explain where you are at then you have fulfilled what I would consider the moral aspect. Remember though, you define what is your moral fiber. You know inside of yourself what you feel is right or wrong for you. Everyone has their own. Good luck to you, I wish all the best. Blondeblue

Actually, I didn’t post under my regular name because I didn’t want to seem as if I was just bragging about having a number of women. If I could have conceived of a way to post my question without resort to the “I have this friend…” method that would have come off in such a way that no one would have thought I was simply bragging, I would have done so.

Interesting topic, morals are. Unfortunately, they are too subjective and emotional to be discussed rationally and at much length with most people. You seem to be quite rational however, so here’s my take on this.

Several people have had valid points, and several more irrational, unsubstantiated ones. At least Colin had one valid, unsubjective point out of his four. I also liked what Charlie had to say about taking your time and feeling out whether any of these budding relationships has “the echo of the broken relationship”. Considering where you’ve been recently (engaged), I think it’s a very very good thing to take an emotional relationship slowly. However, that is not to say you shouldn’t date and sleep with whomever you choose to at whatever frequency you choose to. Just allow the emotional aspect room to evolve naturally.

I don’t think your dating, and bedding, several women at once shows insecurity or that you are the reason “girls think all guys are scum”. I could be wrong, of course, but I didn’t gather that from your writing. Ooh, I could throw a dig at a certain person with yawning crevasses of such insecurities, but I think his stalking tendencies do a fair enough job of that on their own.

To recap:

  1. You have had three dates with each of three different adult women over the course of six weeks.

  2. You have had consensual, protected intercourse with all three.

  3. There have been no conversations or intimations regarding the status or direction of any of these relationships.

  4. You are in a quandry as to whether or not you have done the women a wrong by not informing them of the others.

  5. You are now in a position of wanting to persue a deeper relationship with one of the women - not necessarilly to the point of exclusivity, but deeper than heretofore.

  6. You are unsure as to how to approach the fact of the other two to the one you desire to persue.

  7. You are unsure of what to do with the two remaining women while you persue a deeper relationship with the one.

    Is this roughly the scenario? Assuming so, let me address each point in turn.

  8. Good for you. Getting back in the dating pool is a gutsy move after being recently “exfianced”. And spreading the dating around makes one less likely to grasp the first halfway appealing person and trying to force them to be the newest, bestest thing since sliced bread. It allows for more objectivity when viewing a person’s positive characteristics and shortcommings.

  9. Good for you. Consensual sex between adults is a wonderful thing. Some would have issues with this as it is outside the blessing of some God and the legality of marriage. The fact of sex occuring is an issue for neither you nor the women involved (no one who is waiting for marriage has sex within 3 dates). But the fact of your having been with each of them while dating the others may be an issue. To this, I’d have to ask why? Seeing as Item #3 is…

  10. There have been no conversations or intimations regarding the status or direction of any of these relationships. Without such conversations, or at the very least intimations, there can be no expectation of exclusivity. I firmly disagree with the “sex causing implied exclusivity” argument. Yes, there are freaks out there that do believe this way, but those are the same freaks that boil bunnies. The fact, as one poster pointed out, that some women (and I’d like to clarify that most definitely NOT ALL WOMEN subscribe to this fucked up theory) are into the “I shouldn’t HAVE to say something” crappola is not reason enough to cater to their ridiculous notions. By this flawed logic, if a woman’s idea of exclusivity is sex and her idea of cheating is you looking at another female across the street - then the one night stand you’ve just had has every right to accuse you of cheating for noticing a skirt on your gentlemanly way to showing her your front door. Would you be agreable to that? I sincerely doubt it. Why? Because she has no right to an expectation of exclusivity based on a sexual encounter. If you’ve become involved with one of these creatures - RUN! It’s sort of the old lawyer’s axiom “If it’s not in writing, it didn’t happen”. If you have not had candid discussions on exclusivity and what EXACTLY it means to you and to her, there can be no exclusivity agreement in effect.

  11. Point 4 is an offshoot of the age old question of how much of one’s life is to be divulged upon meeting a prospective partner. Did you tell each of these women the injustices and abuses you suffered as a child (assuming you did suffer such)? I doubt it. Did you tell each of these women of your somewhat wacky and demented toilet bowl fetish (again, assuming such is true)? I doubt it. Well, why not? Because it’s not their business. You don’t know if you want to entrust that bit of knowledge to them as yet. You are JUST getting to know them. You do not owe them the entire, unabridged tale of your life. You owe them (if you can even go so far as to “owe” them anything at all) honesty in who YOU are. And guess what? YOU are not who you fuck. YOU are who they are looking at, who they are talking to, who they are participating in an activity with, who they are fucking. And don’t get sidetracked with the “well, if I fucked her, and she fucked him, and he fucked his locker partner, and his locker partner fucked her sister, so that means I just fucked her sister so I just cheated on her because of this implied exclusivity agreement” bullshit. Christ, by that logic we’ve all fucked Bill Clinton AND Dennis Rodman AND Madonna. As long as you allow your true personality to show and answer whatever questions are put to you honestly (or answer with “I am not ready to discuss that yet”) then you have fulfilled whatever moral obligation you may be under.

  12. This is a pretty easy one. You have two clear options. 1 - TALK TO HER. Tell her exactly what you want - as much of it as you can articulate. Tell her you are not ready yet for exclusivity but you’d like to see her on a more regular basis. Or 2 - LET YOUR ACTIONS BE YOUR WORDS. I prefer this method myself as I’ve learned how cheap words can be. Simply call her more often, see her more often, do more shtuff together, gradually have deeper conversations. This evidences your desire for more than the casual hanging out and fucking you’ve done so far. Eventually, this increased contact should lead to a “Where are we headed” talk. Then discuss openly all that you feel and fear and expect.

  13. Again, I’d refer to point 4. She has no need of knowledge of anyone else you are seeing until you become exclusive. At that point it would be wise to settle exactly what exclusivity means to each of you. If she presses you as to what your previous/concurrent relationships were like (or with whom) simply say that neither of you were exclusive to the other and so ANY previous relationships WERE just that - PREVIOUS - and as such have little to no bearing on what the two of you have going on. She is not going to fault you for dating before you became “hers”. Should she find out that you were seeing two other women while you were seeing her and you ended up choosing her, I’d imagine she’d feel special. It’s possible too though, that she may feel cheapened because you slept with each of the three concurrently and that you chose her because of her bedroom abilities. If she feels this way, I’d take it as a warning of a supersensitive ego and tread accordingly.

  14. Unless “The Talk” and it’s defining of exclusivity involves some sort of “open relationship” concept - you must break off with the remaining women immediately upon ending “The Talk”. You needn’t give explanations beyond the two of you having different goals. Your goal (whether stated or not) being a monogamous relationship with the first girl and this girl’s possible goal of a relationship with you. Of course, the two of you may maintain a friendship, should you desire.


    Good luck!

Hey Anonymous, I think I do owe you an apology. I re-read my posts to you and I came off rather high handed, sorry about that. I guess it hard for me to articulate my own morals without sounding judgmental (I’m not actually). I just have a very defined standard by which I try to lead my life. Again I state that MY morals are MY morals and I hold no other accountable to them but myself. I tried, unsuccessfully, to impart some advice in my first post without stepping into the murky moral water and stepping on any toes.


You asked me why I would categorize what you did as a lie when you did not promise any of them anything more than what they got, which was consensual sex. But I wonder if they would have consented had they known about each other.
Is keeping silent about something that might affect the outcome you desire, had it been known, the same as telling a lie? I think it is but then again thats me.

Well I don’t want to reopen the whole can of worms after you have already made your decision. I just wanted to apologize to you and to answer the question you asked of me. I wish you the best of luck my friend.


As a side note I did find it funny that Karma opened her post by stating that discussing morals was difficult because they are too subjective to discuss and then later dismissed my points because they were subjective. LOL

You are sleeping with three different women, you have only known them for about a month, and they don’t know the others exist. You are on your way to a disaster. Here are few possible senarios…

All three are also sleeping with other guys while they are sleeping with you.
They have no more respect for you than you have for them and you are just as likely to get dumped as you are to dump them.
Though you have never said you are being exclusive you have also not said that you are not being exclusive
I think most people past 'college age/maturity' consider a sexual realtionship to be a 'serious' relationship. (please note the reference to maturity) Therefore, all three may be assuming that this is an exclusive thing even though it has not been spelled out.
The three women are also sleeping with 2 other guys each - so now we have 10 different couples.
Someone (not necessarily you) screws up and someone gets pregnant, what are the odds you'll get 'chosen' as the father?
You tell all three about the other two
They don't care because they are also not being exclusive, and you all continue to screw whenever your schedules permit.
You tell all three about the other two
You get your face slapped three times and go from feast to famine
You are clean, the three women are clean
Unfortunately, one of the men that they are sleeping with and not telling you about has herpes and passes it to her, she passes it to you, you pass it to the other two girls who pass it to the guys they are not telling you about.
You are playing with disaster. If you really thought it was ok to date and sleep with all three women you would have discussed the non-exclusiveness of your relationship with them.

I've had that conversation with a guy before, he initiated it. It went like this - 'I like going out with you, but I'm seeing other people as well. I don't want a girlfriend right now' So I said - 'That's cool, but we're not gonna sleep together if we're not exclusive' It was not a hard conversation to have at all. However, it may be a little late for you.

If you like one more than the other, than tell the others you can't see them anymore. If you want to keep seeing all three that's cool, but they should all know about the others... and the extent of the other realtionships.

Just my thoughts...

Wow –

Three different females and three different takes. So mucn for the hope that there might be a female consensus on the point. Thank you all for weighing in though -- it's definitely good to see the various female perspectives.

To add a little new info, I think it's fairly clear from my recent interactions with the lady I like most that she assumes we're exclusive -- luckily for any future communications I need to have on the subject, she was the last of the three with whom I became intimate chronologically, so if it ever did need to come up I could truthfully say that I hadn't been with anyone else since we started congressing. She's really sweet, and the more I see of her the more about her I appreciate.

Anyway, seeing as how you ladies have been kind enough to weigh in with some advice on the moral side, do you have any practical advice on how to have "the talk" with the other two without hurting their feelings? I was leaning toward Karma's suggestion of some vague statement about our goals not meshing or things just not working out. Would you want to know that there was someone else, or would you want something along the lines of "It's not you, it's me"?

Thanks for the well wishes Colin. I know where you’re coming from – sometimes it is hard to give advice without sounding high-handed, but I appreciate the thought you put in to trying to help me with my question.


Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.

There is no way out without hurting feelings at this point in my opinion. I have no idea at all how to end the other two relationships without hurting feelings. They are going to be pissed no matter what you do or say. Good Luck!