Minutemen

[hspder]

[quote]Cream wrote:
What are these numbers (250 000, 65 000 etc.) based on? I would have to guess they are pretty arbitrary if there are however many millions of illegals living here that came to get jobs. Is this the case, or is there some kind of complicated formula that determines this?[/quote]

The limits are arbitrary, defined by congress on what they are comfortable with.

[quote]Cream wrote:
And why would September 11th affect people seeking to immigrate legally? Do we not thoroughly check up on these people?[/quote]

You’re right. It shouldn’t have affected the limit. I agree. And yes, we thoroughly check these people – whenever you apply for an H1 they spend at least two weeks checking everything possible in your background, which culminates with a very thorough interview in the US consulate of your country of origin, and then another one when you enter the US (at the border).

[Cream]

[quote]hspder wrote:
Cream wrote:
What are these numbers (250 000, 65 000 etc.) based on? I would have to guess they are pretty arbitrary if there are however many millions of illegals living here that came to get jobs. Is this the case, or is there some kind of complicated formula that determines this?

The limits are arbitrary, defined by congress on what they are comfortable with.

Cream wrote:
And why would September 11th affect people seeking to immigrate legally? Do we not thoroughly check up on these people?

You’re right. It shouldn’t have affected the limit. I agree. And yes, we thoroughly check these people – whenever you apply for an H1 they spend at least two weeks checking everything possible in your background, which culminates with a very thorough interview in the US consulate of your country of origin, and then another one when you enter the US (at the border).

[/quote]

So why don’t we raise legal immigration limits and crack down on illegal immigration at the border?

[doogie]

[quote]Cream wrote:

So why don’t we raise legal immigration limits and crack down on illegal immigration at the border? [/quote]

Ding Ding Ding

[Hydrolic_Kraken]

[quote]Professor X wrote:
There was recent talk about how we will soon fall behind in technology as a nation because we are turning away some of the brightest minds from any other country because of these new tactics for keeping immigrants out of the country.
[/quote]
Some of the reasons we are falling behind has nothing to do with immagration.

1: Our country is not building new powerplants. Countries like China are going to be building dozens of new nuclear power plants. They will have more electricaty to delve out, and be able to sustain a more robust econamy for a cheaper price. Most other countries are building cheaper, more effective nuclear plants. We are still using coal, and we aren’t building any new plants.

2: We keep doing things like raising minimum wage and using affermative racsism, making it harder for buisnesses to function in the US. People are lawsuit happy and suing big corperations left and right. You talk about turing away the brightest minds. There are plenty of bright minds in the US.

[quote]nopal_juventus wrote:
Illegal immigrants, contrary to what fox news will have you believe are not a plague; they don’t piggyback on welfare, and very, very rarely do they take more out of the U.S. currency flow than they put back in. Here’s a fun little stat: illegal immigrants in California alone have taken an average of $3 billion each year since 1990. Damn, them’s beaners is rippin’ us off! Know how much they put back via production, consumption, and overall expenditure? $197 BILLION (can you say get-er-done?). Who’s ripping who off? So the notion that they drain the economy is a myth because:
a.) they only send back to Mexico a fraction of what they make,
b.) being illegal and all, they get none of the benefits of citizens, since the recently established california latino raids have used social security to keep tabs and deport the nasty ol’ joses and juanes. Plus, nearly all illegals pay their taxes, contrary to popular belief
[/quote]
You are only speaking of social security. They use our hospital systems. In LA alone, 6 emergancy wards and 1 hospital have closed down. A hospital can not reffuse to serve anyone with an emergancy. After they get treated they leave, and no one is able to pick up the tab. Then there is the point that they bring there kids over, and there kids use our services such as schools, and what not. You also don’t speak to the portion of illeagls in prison. When 20-40% of the pirson population is illegal, that is a lot of tax dollars being spent to keep them year after year. You said nothing about the cost of deporting illegals, on some occasions many times per person. Now, you are taking only two issues were they are taking advantage of our services and says “see it isnt that much”. There are over a dozen social services they use. They use our roads, our fire departments, our police department, our schools, our hospitals, ect. As far as paying taxes, a lot of illegals do under the table work, which means there income is not tracked and you can’t know how much they are paying.

Now about the whole taking jobs part, illegal immigrants (mexicans aren’t the only ones south of the border) are the backbone of California’s economy (the largest economy in the U.S.). Most of the state’s business revenue comes from agriculture, and the grunts on which the whole system is founded are… who do you think? If illegals weren’t around, minimum wage (in cali at least) would be much more enforced than it is now, and most likely would rise. Economics 101: supply decreases when costs of inputs rise (read: businesses are downsized, total profits fall, Aggregate Supply for California decreases, unemployment goes up. Just what the governator needs huh?). Unemployment is between 3.5% and 5% right now, which is the ‘perfect employment’ area. So I guess illegals are doing us a big favor.

I do agree that the minumum wage needs to stay at the lower end of the spectrum. However, I notice that you are only talking about california, and are not speaking about the other states that have large illegal populations.

Finally, if you haven’t tried to cross the border legally, you have no idea of the hells that you must cross to get a temporary visiting visa, to say nothing of getting a passport. You think all those people don’t want to cross legally? It takes an average of 10 years to finally be able to cross, if you have all the money needed at the right times. If you don’t know what 10 years means to people that hop the border, go to barrio libertad or zona norte the next time you’re in TJ. Go to the canyons, and see how the lucky border-hoppers live (image what it’s like in Central America, what with the whole institutions for the americans and all). You people really need to look at it from the other side. I guarantee that in the vast majority of the cases, the only crime illegal immigrants commit has to do with some certain “No Tresspasing” signs. I’m immensly proud of my heritage, but Mexico is no beach paradise. 60 percent of our population is clasified as relative poverty, and 40% of those are living in absolute poverty (as in $1 a day). And Mexico is second world, imagine how people in LDC’s live. By closing yourselves off (note: Switzerland), you condemn them to death.

If I lived down there, I would probably try to do the same thing. That does not mean I would blame the US for stopping me if I tried to come in. The question remains though, is it our responcabilaty to help them? I would much rather see the starving people in our own country helped first. BTW, since we don’t let them cross, we are not condeming them to death. It is there own government that is doing that. When Mexico does not do a good job with there own country, you can’t blame the US for their problems. If I went broke because someone robbed me, and you wouldn’t let me stay at your house, it would not be your fault that I am broke and homeless to begin with.

Now I don’t think that illegal immmigration should be encouraged, rather, make it so that the average jose doesn’t have to wait 10 years to cross. Inform yourselves on the matter before you decide on the topic. Before you join the volutary border patrol, look at the issue, read up on it (and ignorant bigots like Rush Limbaugh don’t count, their IQ must be at least 110), and then, if you still wish to, you can make the “Beaners Go Home” signs."

Yes, they should try to do a better job of our imagration polaciecs. But we must ask, would our country be able to handle large influxes of people year after year? Perhaps, perhaps not. At any rate, how about making legal imagration more friendly, and going harder on illegal immagration?

[nopal_juventus]

Because that would be bad for business.
Seriously, why do you think Bush hasn’t really done anything to adress the ‘problem’? Think about it. I’ll use California as an example (since I live there and have lived there or near there 3/4 of my life). Agriculture is the main source of revenue for California. On who is agriculture founded? Latino (mostly chicano) immigrants. They’re the grunts of labor. Businesses feed off them, they’re a blessing. Forget the fact that they lower costs of inputs, since they’re illegal, and no records are on them (though that’s changing, you people have no idea how many immigrants have fake and/or real social security numbers) businesses have them at their mercy. The whole notion that illegals just come over here to piggyback on U.S. Social Security is a myth. Granted, there are instances (usually the ones that make the news) where this is the case, but the vast majority of the time they don’t get any benefits (and the % of illegals paying taxes has been steadily on the rise). Why? Look up the latino raids in California (though that’s not the only reason). In the end, the only people who win directly are the businesses, both large and small. Unions are screwed over when illegals break any strikes or other methods they have, and illegals, though they are making more than in PAN/PRI-Mexico, aren’t exactly living the high life. However, inderectly, U.S. society as a whole wins, since lower costs of inputs for the main source of revenue for the largest economy in the U.S. leads to an increase in AS, which leads to lower prices and an increase in QS (this means more jobs basically). So you can understand why the Government doesn’t exactly want to close of the borders (not to illegals anyway). On a side note, the 9 billion federal deficit that the estimated 9 million illegals in the U.S. create (compared to 197 billion brought in in revenue) would triple should they become legal, as a result of all the benefits that they’d now enjoy. I already said I work at the U.C. MexUS headquarters, and this is one of the topics that they focus on the most (duh). They have tons (and I mean tons) of articles, essays, studies, data, statistics, and hard facts that disprove nearly every myth surrounding illegals. Why do you think that no one supports the idea of speeding up the legalization process (the obvious solution)? Because it would really only benefit immigrants in the short run.
Here’s some info on me before you start the bashing: I cross the San Ysidro/Otay borders 2/3 times a week, I’ve lived near the border (or on it) my whole life, I was born in San Diego (my mother was a UCSD post-graduate student at the time, so she didn’t just hop the border to have me), so I’m a U.S. national, and I know many immigrants, both legal and illegal (though mostly illegal), and not just from Mexico and other latin nations. Anything else?

"Oh Goddamnit. To think I took all that time trying to educate you and you’re not even out of high school. Argh – a high school communist.

On a separate note, you said were a Mexican. Do they have all those same tests in SATs, APs, etc. in Mexico?"

Dude, the first thing I said when I posted for the first time was that I wasn’t a communist. So what if I’m not outta high school, some of the high-schoolers that I know are extremely intelligent and educated. And I know some 60 year-old doctorate professors who voted for Bush… twice! So your point is moot (though I personally hold age to, on rare occasions, be a symbol of wisdom, as in ProfessorX and hspder’s cases).

I’m living in Riverside, CA at the moment, I recently moved from Ensenada so as to get the IB diploma (closest school that offered it was in Tijuana). School in Mexico is standardized, meaning everyone in the same grade takes the same clases (though the class level varies depending on school/city/state), so there’s no AP-type classes, and we only have one elective per year. The SATs are offered for those wishing to study in the US, but very few take them for obvious reasons.

On a seperate note, do you really hold present-day Spain accountable for The Spanish Empire and the Conquistadores?
If so, do you really think Mexicans are barbaric because of the Mexica heritage?

[nopal_juventus]

“You are only speaking of social security. They use our hospital systems. In LA alone, 6 emergancy wards and 1 hospital have closed down. A hospital can not reffuse to serve anyone with an emergancy. After they get treated they leave, and no one is able to pick up the tab. Then there is the point that they bring there kids over, and there kids use our services such as schools, and what not.”
Yes, but look at the annual cost for it and you’ll see that it pales in comparison to the revenue brought in. As for kids using schools, they rarely get the chance, seeing as how latinos have then highest dropout rate of any ethnic group in the country (I think it was in the high 60s).

“You also don’t speak to the portion of illeagls in prison. When 20-40% of the pirson population is illegal, that is a lot of tax dollars being spent to keep them year after year.”
Show me the data for illegals in prison, and the annual costs that they have to maintain them. I’m not calling you a liar, just pointing out that the costs are nothing compared to the profits.

“You said nothing about the cost of deporting illegals, on some occasions many times per person.”
Really? I thought it was simply a bus ride to the border, seeing as how I’ve had cousins and friends deported, and I had to show my passport once to avoid said fate. The vast majority of the few deportations that happen don’t occur too far from the border, so the costs really aren’t high.

“Now, you are taking only two issues were they are taking advantage of our services and says “see it isnt that much”. There are over a dozen social services they use. They use our roads, our fire departments, our police department, our schools, our hospitals, ect.”
How do they use the police department? From what I’ve seen they’re running from them most of the time. Funny, I was under the impression that there was no cost to use the highway.

"As far as paying taxes, a lot of illegals do under the table work, which means there income is not tracked and you can’t know how much they are paying. "
They still pay taxes. Hell, even the CIS admits it. And you know why they create a deficit? Not because of abusing benefits, or not paying taxes… no, it’s because even though almost all of them pay taxes and have jobs and don’t abuse the system, their income is so low it can’t make up for basic costs of living. Their jobs are so f*cked up, the taxes they pay are next to nothing.

[hedo]

[quote]hspder wrote:
hedo wrote:
I will put a different spin on this argument. I would rather see them restrict H1B VIsa’s more then any. That is good quality work a US citizen can do. I would rather see the immigrants come in and do the jobs a citizen does not want…not one that he is working hard to get.

US companies hire and sponsor H1B’s for a reason. With all the trouble (and expense – it costs over $3,500 to get one, including lawyer fees) is that hard to believe that they would rather hire US citizens if they could?

Problem is, that those “immigrants” are so much more productive and qualified to do the job, that going through all the expense and time is economically rewarding. Why? Well, because most people in this country think that getting an advanced degree is either too much work, too expensive or a waste of time – and they spend most of their teenage years learning how to dodge work, not perform it.

So, tell me: if doing the grunt work is “beneath” most Americans, and doing the intellectual work is “useless” to most Americans, how do most Americans expect to make a living? Off their Sugar Daddy/Momma?

The reality is that one of things that made this country great was its ability in the 20th century to “capture” the most brilliant minds of the world and bring them here. I’m just saying there’s no reason to stop doing that – on the contrary.

hedo wrote:
Go to most countries and you will not get a visa if a local is capable of doing the work.

“Most countries”? Are you basing that on your biased assumption or some hard evidence?

If you look at “most countries” in Europe, you’ll see all of them will readily give visas as long as you show you have a company interested in you. And it doesn’t cost $3,500. Some countries – like The Netherlands – even go as far as giving immigrants large tax breaks to offset the extra cost of moving to a new country.
[/quote]

What’s my bias there professor? Weak.

Ever travelled? Not on a trip…to work abroad? Try taking work from someone in Australia, NZ, Singapore, Malaysia on a worker Visa. Will not happen. They have too much sense for that.

Europe is hardly an example to emulate from an economic standpoint.

A socialist country as an example…, that’s silly even for a professor.

So we American are lazy and incapable of performing at the level of a foriegn worker. Sounds like an academic discussion to me. In the real world an advanced degree isn’t always the door opener you think it is or as valuable as you seem to think. Some of my best employees do not have a graduate degree. It’s not a substitute for experience, common sense or a strong work ethic. To say that US workers do not possess those traits is a gross generalization.

I wouldn’t sell the US worker short.

[Vegita]

Back to the point of the discussion, I believe these minute men are doing what needs to be done. All they are doing is basically adding more manpower to the border patrol, most of them are sitting in thier vehicles in easily accesable areas and just hanging out. This is at least a deterrent and might send a good message across the border. From what I can tell there is probably a good reson for having immigration be illegal, so anyone who challenges the right of american citicens to stop illegal activity is downright insane.

I can think of a few other things that would be good for the economy, lets encourage massive drug traffic and oh yea why don’t we sell off our weapons to the highest bidder as well, we will be the richest country in the world and all of our citizens will be rich and happy. And everyone in the world can just come live here all at once and we can all get high and shoot rifles into the air and it would be such a great place to live then.

Jeez what are you guys actually talking about, you agree we should change the guest worker program and you think illegal immigration is bad but you don’t think we should increase the patroling of the borders? Some of you have no point, and all of you seem to be agreeing with eachother, you all just want to word it slightly differently or be more politically correct etc…

To recapp:

1. LEGAL immigration is good and maybe we need some reform there.

2. ILLEGAL immigration is bad because we don’t know what type of people are coming in and while some good people come in inevitably some bad people come in as well and why not control that and ensure as small a number of bad people as possible get in.

3. Americans especially property owners have the right to protect thier land and ensure that illegal acts don’t happen on thier property against thier will including trespass, and illegal immigration. If property owners allow volunteers to watch thier land for them as they don’t have the resources themselves to accomplish the task, that is ok too.

Did that pretty much agree with everyone? Any problems with my three points there anyone?

V

[hedo]

Vegita

Clear and concise in my opinion.

[Professor_X]

[quote]Vegita wrote:

Jeez what are you guys actually talking about, you agree we should change the guest worker program and you think illegal immigration is bad but you don’t think we should increase the patroling of the borders?
[/quote]

What thread did you read? Who here said that we should not increase border patrols?

[Cream]

"Oh Goddamnit. To think I took all that time trying to educate you and you’re not even out of high school. Argh – a high school communist.

On a separate note, you said were a Mexican. Do they have all those same tests in SATs, APs, etc. in Mexico?"

Dude, the first thing I said when I posted for the first time was that I wasn’t a communist. So what if I’m not outta high school, some of the high-schoolers that I know are extremely intelligent and educated. And I know some 60 year-old doctorate professors who voted for Bush… twice! So your point is moot (though I personally hold age to, on rare occasions, be a symbol of wisdom, as in ProfessorX and hspder’s cases).

I’m living in Riverside, CA at the moment, I recently moved from Ensenada so as to get the IB diploma (closest school that offered it was in Tijuana). School in Mexico is standardized, meaning everyone in the same grade takes the same clases (though the class level varies depending on school/city/state), so there’s no AP-type classes, and we only have one elective per year. The SATs are offered for those wishing to study in the US, but very few take them for obvious reasons.

On a seperate note, do you really hold present-day Spain accountable for The Spanish Empire and the Conquistadores?
If so, do you really think Mexicans are barbaric because of the Mexica heritage?

My point is moot, eh? You haven’t been an earner but you’ve got it figured out (i.e. “yay Che Guevara, Stalin I love you!”). How is that not exactly like someone who has never touched weights telling others twice his size and ten times his experience how to train?

I won’t be drawn into criticizing Mexican history or culture. That’s unfair – it’s like playing tackle football against a quadriplegic. Suffice it to say, you really have no business criticizing the US when your own country is such a disaster.

Instead of moving here to make money and use the schools, if you really cared about your own country you would stay in Mexico and work for meaningful reform. When something’s broke work to fix it, don’t move somewhere else and criticize from afar.

Do you blame the current US government for all the garbage that you listed in your “Imperialism” links?

[hspder]

[quote]hedo wrote:
What’s my bias there professor? Weak.[/quote]

You claim, without the backing of any evidence other than your experience in a handful of countries in the same region of the world that “most countries in the World” do not issue worker visas. That’s a biased extrapolation by definition.

[quote]hedo wrote:
Ever travelled? Not on a trip…to work abroad? Try taking work from someone in Australia, NZ, Singapore, Malaysia on a worker Visa. Will not happen. They have too much sense for that.[/quote]

“They have too much sense for that”? You’ve cherry picked two historically xenophobic countries, from the Muslim Southeast Asia, and then two from the Southwest Pacific.

Wait: are you implying that xenophoby is “having sense”? Uau.

Also, how can you immediately imply that is the case of “most countries”? Did you survey 150 countries for their labor laws?

Even for Singapore, Malaysia, NZ and Australia, can you explain exactly how their visa laws work?

Because, for example, I know of a lot of US actors and film crew workers that have absolutely no problem getting a visa to work in either Australia or NZ. I also know that Australia has a large Portuguese community and I know, for a fact, that they are not illegal immigrants. So you might actually be mistaken about Australia, at least.

[quote]hedo wrote:
Europe is hardly an example to emulate from an economic standpoint.[/quote]

What does that have to do with what I said? You claim that “most countries” don’t let foreign workers enter legally; I’m just giving counter-examples to prove your extrapolation is baseless.

[quote]hedo wrote:
A socialist country as an example…, that’s silly even for a professor.[/quote]

“Silly even for a professor”? Seems you have some unresolved anger towards professors, like you do towards foreigners… Based on the fact that both you and rainjack show that anger, should I extrapolate to think all conservatives think that way?

[quote]hedo wrote:
So we American are lazy and incapable of performing at the level of a foriegn worker. Sounds like an academic discussion to me. [/quote]

On the contrary. It’s what a lot of (or, should I use your extrapolation techniques and say “most”?) businessmen in this country think. If they didn’t, they wouldn’t be spending the money sponsoring thousands upon thousands of foreign workers.

[quote]hedo wrote:
In the real world an advanced degree isn’t always the door opener you think it is or as valuable as you seem to think. [/quote]

Of course it isn’t always a door opener. And how can you conclude that’s what I think since I never said that? Are you psychic?
(seems to be another trend amongst some part of our population. Hence the success of “Medium” on NBC!)

There are, however, many jobs these days that companies will rather give to somebody with an advanced degree than to somebody that doesn’t. And are willing to spend upwards of $3,500 in getting a visa for the guy/girl with the advanced degree. The 65,000 cap in applications was achieved in 3 months. Yes, three months.

[quote]hedo wrote:
Some of my best employees do not have a graduate degree. It’s not a substitute for experience, common sense or a strong work ethic.[/quote]

Absolutely. I wholeheartedly agree with that statement.

[quote]hedo wrote:
To say that US workers do not possess those traits is a gross generalization.[/quote]

I never said that no US workers possess those qualities. They are, however, more prevalent in people from other cultures, that teach their kids those same values rather than letting the TV baby-sit them.

What’s ironic is that the same conservatives that say TV and music and video-games and drugs are the worst thing to happen to our kids in centuries – and that those things should be regulated and even outlawed – are the same people that are in denial about the lack of work ethics, intelligence, knowledge and even common sense those same kids show when they enter the work market.

[Vegita]

[quote]Professor X wrote:

I think it is a political statement and that they need to get out of the way. I think the whole “immigrant issue” has been blown out of proportion in terms of any real damage. I don’t see many other races willing to work the shifts or do the labor that many of these people do when they cross over. If you ever notice the guys who clean up stores overnight after they close, I am sure many fall into that category (though not all). Are we really saying that there are tons of people waiting on these jobs and illegal immigrants are stealing them all? It is political and I stopped trusting politicians a long time ago.
[/quote]

Prof X, your very first post in this thread, and please don’t insult my intelligence, this is a very pro immigration opinion, and based on the origional premise that the Militia Men are stopping ILLEGAL immigrants, one can quite easily make the connection that you in fact support ILLEGAL immigration. Please don’t give me the BS line of you didn’t say it directly either. One of two things is true, you either support ILLEGAL immigration, or you lack the ability to even remotely stay on topic and not even have the courtesy of stating you are changing the topic. If you wanted to talk about how good, LEGEL immigration is, which the origional poster never questioned, you should have stated such. These are the basic communication skills that many people lack and is many times the reason for posts degrading into a buch of pissing.

I believe this is another one of your classic straw men, where the origional poster never said anything about Legel immigrants, yet you felt the need to defend them and the great work they do.

V

[Professor_X]

[quote]Vegita wrote:
Professor X wrote:

I think it is a political statement and that they need to get out of the way. I think the whole “immigrant issue” has been blown out of proportion in terms of any real damage. I don’t see many other races willing to work the shifts or do the labor that many of these people do when they cross over. If you ever notice the guys who clean up stores overnight after they close, I am sure many fall into that category (though not all). Are we really saying that there are tons of people waiting on these jobs and illegal immigrants are stealing them all? It is political and I stopped trusting politicians a long time ago.

Prof X, your very first post in this thread, and please don’t insult my intelligence, this is a very pro immigration opinion, and based on the origional premise that the Militia Men are stopping ILLEGAL immigrants, one can quite easily make the connection that you in fact support ILLEGAL immigration.
[/quote]

I never wrote anything nor meant anything about upholding illegal immigrant passage into the US. You act as if someone doesn’t fall into a box you already have made for them that their opinion is too hard to grasp. I don’t have to agree with the Minute Men to be FOR stronger patrols of the borders…however, I also realize a larger problem which is also how LEGAL citizenship is attained and how hard it is to get. That goes hand in hand with the problem.

I also realize that many of these people are willing to work jobs and shifts that most Americans won’t which brings into question just how much of a “problem” this really is. That is no “straw man” argument but one based on experience in having worked around people like that. You have a very narrow world view it seems. Everyone must either agree with you or they are completely insane and the word “straw man” gets thrown around a few hundred times. Is there anything else you are unclear on concerning my stance?

[Vegita]

Prof X, I hate to Call BS but your very first sentance, states that the minute men need to get out of the way. What are they in the way of other than illegal immigrants? Please explain to me what me having a narrow world vier has to do with me posting about how poorly you and other communicate? You did realize that I was criticising the boards communication and not so much anyones position right? I honestly don’t know if you do it on purpose or not but Perhaps this is the problem in our learning environments when prof such as yourself lack the skills necessary to communicate effectively. (note: you do lack this because I cannot tell clearly what your point is and I am very anal about being good at communication)

So again, state clearly your point, is it this?

You want the minutemen to get out of the way… for more border patrol agents to come in and protect our borders. But since that will not happen anytime soon, you are ok and in favor of illegal immigrants crossing the border until we train more border patrol agents, if that ever happens. Because God forbid a tragedy ever happened and a cowboy minute man ever shot or killed a poor unfortunate illegal immigrant, who was breaking into our country.

If this is not your position please clarify it for me without changing subjects to legal immigrants, taxes or the economy. The subject again, is the minute men, illegal immigrants, and the border patrol.

V

[hedo]

[quote]hspder wrote:
hedo wrote:
What’s my bias there professor? Weak.

You claim, without the backing of any evidence other than your experience in a handful of countries in the same region of the world that “most countries in the World” do not issue worker visas. That’s a biased extrapolation by definition.

hedo wrote:
Ever travelled? Not on a trip…to work abroad? Try taking work from someone in Australia, NZ, Singapore, Malaysia on a worker Visa. Will not happen. They have too much sense for that.

“They have too much sense for that”? You’ve cherry picked two historically xenophobic countries, from the Muslim Southeast Asia, and then two from the Southwest Pacific.

Wait: are you implying that xenophoby is “having sense”? Uau.

Also, how can you immediately imply that is the case of “most countries”? Did you survey 150 countries for their labor laws?

Even for Singapore, Malaysia, NZ and Australia, can you explain exactly how their visa laws work?

Because, for example, I know of a lot of US actors and film crew workers that have absolutely no problem getting a visa to work in either Australia or NZ. I also know that Australia has a large Portuguese community and I know, for a fact, that they are not illegal immigrants. So you might actually be mistaken about Australia, at least.

hedo wrote:
Europe is hardly an example to emulate from an economic standpoint.

What does that have to do with what I said? You claim that “most countries” don’t let foreign workers enter legally; I’m just giving counter-examples to prove your extrapolation is baseless.

hedo wrote:
A socialist country as an example…, that’s silly even for a professor.

“Silly even for a professor”? Seems you have some unresolved anger towards professors, like you do towards foreigners… Based on the fact that both you and rainjack show that anger, should I extrapolate to think all conservatives think that way?

hedo wrote:
So we American are lazy and incapable of performing at the level of a foriegn worker. Sounds like an academic discussion to me.

On the contrary. It’s what a lot of (or, should I use your extrapolation techniques and say “most”?) businessmen in this country think. If they didn’t, they wouldn’t be spending the money sponsoring thousands upon thousands of foreign workers.

hedo wrote:
In the real world an advanced degree isn’t always the door opener you think it is or as valuable as you seem to think.

Of course it isn’t always a door opener. And how can you conclude that’s what I think since I never said that? Are you psychic?
(seems to be another trend amongst some part of our population. Hence the success of “Medium” on NBC!)

There are, however, many jobs these days that companies will rather give to somebody with an advanced degree than to somebody that doesn’t. And are willing to spend upwards of $3,500 in getting a visa for the guy/girl with the advanced degree. The 65,000 cap in applications was achieved in 3 months. Yes, three months.

hedo wrote:
Some of my best employees do not have a graduate degree. It’s not a substitute for experience, common sense or a strong work ethic.

Absolutely. I wholeheartedly agree with that statement.

hedo wrote:
To say that US workers do not possess those traits is a gross generalization.

I never said that no US workers possess those qualities. They are, however, more prevalent in people from other cultures, that teach their kids those same values rather than letting the TV baby-sit them.

What’s ironic is that the same conservatives that say TV and music and video-games and drugs are the worst thing to happen to our kids in centuries – and that those things should be regulated and even outlawed – are the same people that are in denial about the lack of work ethics, intelligence, knowledge and even common sense those same kids show when they enter the work market.
[/quote]

Hspder

I really had to read your post to see if you were trying to be funny. Sadly your not. It was almost as good as the factual fulisade you made about the US Revolution being modeled after the French Revolution that happened 15 years after it…priceless.

I made an opinion, a comment re: your post. An opinion. Now in the academic world opinions are not well thought of unless they follow the party line. Sorry I can have what ever opinion I want in the real world. If you don’t like hearing opinions about your posts you might want to check your attitude and ego at the door. You can try and belittle my opinion but in the end, to be honest, you can kiss my ass. Sorry your attempts to sway me are weak at best. But your entitled to have whatever opinion you like.

I cherry picked countries that I have experience with huh? No shit sherlock. Life examples…real world. Who would of thought.

Did I do a study of 150 countries…of course not. Did you? Please that is also silly…even for a professor. I drew on my past experiences…you know something like “film crews”. My experience has to do with slightly more industrial matters…things that other countries might want to try themselves. Does Malaysia have a budding film making industry?

Unresolved issues with professor’s? That’s funny. I don’t think I do…just ones who think their opinions should be taken as fact. Sound like anyone you know?

I have to tell you that answering your other comments is kind of boring so I will not spend much time on it. You know since I come from a culture that does not have the same high “prevelant work ethic” and that values putting thier children in front of the TV more then education. Not that you could be accused of bemoaning the American work ethic with that statement could you?

Look around you prof. Take a stroll around those ivy covered towers. That doesn’t exist in a lot of places. Those kids…even the ones who aren’t foriegn are there because somebody is working to pay the tuition. Somewhere in India some hotshot academic is ready to take your job…he just needs a visa and a sponsor.

Finally back to the point.

MY OPINION is that the best paying jobs should not be filled by immigrants if a US citizen can do it and is willing to do so. If they can’t be found well then I guess it is up for grabs.

[Joe_Weider]

[quote]Elkhntr1 wrote:
Joe Weider wrote:
Professor X wrote:
hspder wrote:
So, essentially, our post-9/11 visa policies have been reducing the influx of hard working, qualified people, while contributing absolutely nothing to prevent terrorists from entering this country.

Fortunately, we don’t rely exclusively on that visa policy to stop them; if we did, we’d be in big trouble.

According to Rainjack, this is a non-issue. Like I said, many in this country have become extremely arrogant concerning our place in the world.

of course we’re arrogant about our place in the world. America is the greatest country on the face of the world, despite the nay-sayers and negativism from certain segments.

JW, I’m not trying to get in a name calling match I’m really just compelled to ask you if you really feal this way. Nany, nany, nany, we’re the greatest country. It just seems like childish thinking to me.

I have a great deal of respect and gratitude for the fact that I was born an American. I much prefer it to many of the countries in chaos, but again I don’t feel a blind allegiance and a need to carry an if you aint american you aint shit attitude. I know you didn’t say that, but that’s the vibe I get.

What if tomorrow you woke up as a citizen of Argentina or some other country would your world be shattered because you weren’t American?

I can already imagine your response it will be fishing for a laugh from you’re buddies, but I ask in all seriousness.

[/quote]

Elk, if I woke up tomorrow? Having been a US citizen, you mean?
In that case, devestated. Honestly.
Why does it seem like childish thinking? This is the greatest country. This is the country everyone else is flocking too. Yes, there are problems, of course there are.
There. I’ve tried to answer in all seriousness.
Elk, something you need to understand–or, at least something I’d like you to understand.
I have a fair amount of respect for you–for the points you make etc.
So I’d be more than happy to do my best to have a serious conversation with you about stuff–because I’ve never seen you resort to blind name calling and damning by innuendo.

[Professor_X]

[quote]Vegita wrote:
Prof X, I hate to Call BS but your very first sentance, states that the minute men need to get out of the way. What are they in the way of other than illegal immigrants? Please explain to me what me having a narrow world vier has to do with me posting about how poorly you and other communicate?[/quote]

Anyone drawn to do this for free makes me seriously wonder about the chracter of the person. Don’t these people have jobs? How many doctors, lawyers, or nurses would sit in a truck at the border looking for runaways from Mexico? I think this has the potential to draw out people with less than appropriate agendas. For some reason, you trust these people. I really have to wonder why. These are not professionals. These are not hired security. If anything, they come across as militia members looking for good PR.

You seem to be unable to understand that point of view. I don’t know why. There is only one reason why I would have to explain this in the most elementary of terms and that must be YOUR level of understanding, not mine.

[rainjack]

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Anyone drawn to do this for free makes me seriously wonder about the chracter of the person. Don’t these people have jobs? How many doctors, lawyers, or nurses would sit in a truck at the border looking for runaways from Mexico? I think this has the potential to draw out people with less than appropriate agendas. For some reason, you trust these people. I really have to wonder why. These are not professionals. [/quote]

No they’re not professionals. They are just regular folks - landowners - who are trying to protect their land - their communities. I can see where these folks must be of inferior character.

They are trying to do something that no one else will do.

You don’t have to trust them. Thank God they don’t have to trust you either. You have pre-judged them as unworthy of trust.

[quote]These are not hired security. If anything, they come across as militia members looking for good PR.
[/quote]

Maybe they are trying to draw attention to a problem that, if left to folks like you, would go unattended to. Instead of seeing a problem, you call into question their motives.

[Joe_Weider]

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Anyone drawn to do this for free makes me seriously wonder about the chracter of the person. Don’t these people have jobs? How many doctors, lawyers, or nurses would sit in a truck at the border looking for runaways from Mexico? [/quote]

maybe people that have just had it up to fucking here and above have just decided that the situation’s never going to change unless they step in and take a stand?

People that feel strongly about an issue?

So now you’ve got to bash these people?

And I like how they’re “runaways” from Mexico.
I think the word you were actually looking for is “criminals” or perhaps “illegal aliens” or maybe even “lawbreakers”.