Minutemen

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
81

[quote]Professor X wrote:
hspder wrote:
So, essentially, our post-9/11 visa policies have been reducing the influx of hard working, qualified people, while contributing absolutely nothing to prevent terrorists from entering this country.

Fortunately, we don’t rely exclusively on that visa policy to stop them; if we did, we’d be in big trouble.

According to Rainjack, this is a non-issue. Like I said, many in this country have become extremely arrogant concerning our place in the world.

[/quote]

of course we’re arrogant about our place in the world. America is the greatest country on the face of the world, despite the nay-sayers and negativism from certain segments.

82

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Professor X wrote:
rainjack wrote:
You underestimate the powers of the evil right wing conspiracy.

…and you overestimate its intelligence and wisdom.

diabolical and evil trump intelligence and wisdom every time. Especially when we are stripping away personal privacy and plotting for imperialistic global domination.

Geez, Prof - either get with the program, or get out of the way - your blocking traffic with your big ass.
[/quote]

there’s a burn!

83

[quote]hedo wrote:
I will put a different spin on this argument. I would rather see them restrict H1B VIsa’s more then any. That is good quality work a US citizen can do. I would rather see the immigrants come in and do the jobs a citizen does not want…not one that he is working hard to get.[/quote]

US companies hire and sponsor H1B’s for a reason. With all the trouble (and expense – it costs over $3,500 to get one, including lawyer fees) is that hard to believe that they would rather hire US citizens if they could?

Problem is, that those “immigrants” are so much more productive and qualified to do the job, that going through all the expense and time is economically rewarding. Why? Well, because most people in this country think that getting an advanced degree is either too much work, too expensive or a waste of time – and they spend most of their teenage years learning how to dodge work, not perform it.

So, tell me: if doing the grunt work is “beneath” most Americans, and doing the intellectual work is “useless” to most Americans, how do most Americans expect to make a living? Off their Sugar Daddy/Momma?

The reality is that one of things that made this country great was its ability in the 20th century to “capture” the most brilliant minds of the world and bring them here. I’m just saying there’s no reason to stop doing that – on the contrary.

[quote]hedo wrote:
Go to most countries and you will not get a visa if a local is capable of doing the work.[/quote]

“Most countries”? Are you basing that on your biased assumption or some hard evidence?

If you look at “most countries” in Europe, you’ll see all of them will readily give visas as long as you show you have a company interested in you. And it doesn’t cost $3,500. Some countries – like The Netherlands – even go as far as giving immigrants large tax breaks to offset the extra cost of moving to a new country.

84

Man, I shouldn’t have to deal with this. SATs, IB, and AP tests are coming up. So, since I’m too lazy to type up my response… I copy it from the last time I argued about this on another forum…

"Ok, before I start, let me make it clear that my opinion is biased (being mexican will do that to you), since I’ve lived near the border nearly my whole life, and when I haven’t my best friends were almost always illegal immmigrants. Now, having gotten that out of the way, let’s delve into the matter.

Illegal immigrants, contrary to what fox news will have you believe are not a plague; they don’t piggyback on welfare, and very, very rarely do they take more out of the U.S. currency flow than they put back in. Here’s a fun little stat: illegal immigrants in California alone have taken an average of $3 billion each year since 1990. Damn, them’s beaners is rippin’ us off! Know how much they put back via production, consumption, and overall expenditure? $197 BILLION (can you say get-er-done?). Who’s ripping who off? So the notion that they drain the economy is a myth because:
a.) they only send back to Mexico a fraction of what they make,
b.) being illegal and all, they get none of the benefits of citizens, since the recently established california latino raids have used social security to keep tabs and deport the nasty ol’ joses and juanes. Plus, nearly all illegals pay their taxes, contrary to popular belief

Now about the whole taking jobs part, illegal immigrants (mexicans aren’t the only ones south of the border) are the backbone of California’s economy (the largest economy in the U.S.). Most of the state’s business revenue comes from agriculture, and the grunts on which the whole system is founded are… who do you think? If illegals weren’t around, minimum wage (in cali at least) would be much more enforced than it is now, and most likely would rise. Economics 101: supply decreases when costs of inputs rise (read: businesses are downsized, total profits fall, Aggregate Supply for California decreases, unemployment goes up. Just what the governator needs huh?). Unemployment is between 3.5% and 5% right now, which is the ‘perfect employment’ area. So I guess illegals are doing us a big favor.

Finally, if you haven’t tried to cross the border legally, you have no idea of the hells that you must cross to get a temporary visiting visa, to say nothing of getting a passport. You think all those people don’t want to cross legally? It takes an average of 10 years to finally be able to cross, if you have all the money needed at the right times. If you don’t know what 10 years means to people that hop the border, go to barrio libertad or zona norte the next time you’re in TJ. Go to the canyons, and see how the lucky border-hoppers live (image what it’s like in Central America, what with the whole institutions for the americans and all). You people really need to look at it from the other side. I guarantee that in the vast majority of the cases, the only crime illegal immigrants commit has to do with some certain “No Tresspasing” signs. I’m immensly proud of my heritage, but Mexico is no beach paradise. 60 percent of our population is clasified as relative poverty, and 40% of those are living in absolute poverty (as in $1 a day). And Mexico is second world, imagine how people in LDC’s live. By closing yourselves off (note: Switzerland), you condemn them to death.

Now I don’t think that illegal immmigration should be encouraged, rather, make it so that the average jose doesn’t have to wait 10 years to cross. Inform yourselves on the matter before you decide on the topic. Before you join the volutary border patrol, look at the issue, read up on it (and ignorant bigots like Rush Limbaugh don’t count, their IQ must be at least 110), and then, if you still wish to, you can make the “Beaners Go Home” signs."

For those that give a damn about my opinion

85

[quote]Aleksandr wrote:
lothos wrote:

snip - I know what I wrote

Restricting immigration post 9-11 is likely to be a nail in north america’s coffin. Without immigrants, the economy is screwed. And since it has gotten so difficult to get into the US and Canada, people are just going elsewhere (believe it or not, north america is not the only game in town).

Check out china’s numbers, and you’ll see that at the current rate, the US will not be #1 much longer.

What can be done to reverse this? Get your heads out of your asses, stop believing everything told to you by racist right-wingers, especially if they have vested interests, which put them in a conflict-of-interests situation every time they move.

But yeah, keep those (AMERICA HATING!!!11) middle-easterners and indians out!!! They are taking american jobs, plus they are all terrorists anyway!![/quote]

OK I said let’s keep the immigration bit out of it but hey. Lets put all the partisan bullshit on both sides down and look at the issues shall we.

point 1 - We should have a LEGAL immigration process but the current system needs to be refined. We need to develop a sane Guest Worker program that allows honest hard-working immigrants into this country - it should apply to everyone whether they are picking peppers or working in the IT industry. This guest worker program would allow hard working folks to help chip in on all the resources taxpayers use (like roads, public schools, etc). I firmly believe in allowing honest hardworking people of all races into this country. But we need to do it in a non-chaotic manner. And I am sorry but if they want to be here, then they should have to shoulder some of the financial burdens they bring to a given community.
point 2 - A sane guest worker program allows us to track those FEW individuals who fuck it up for other people. We have a ton of illegal immigrants in this country commiting crimes, but in many sanctuary cities, police are FORBIDDEN to ask about their immigration status and even if they find out they are illegal can not tell the INS about it. So now we have a class of illegal immigrants that can commit multiple crimes without getting deported and if they do end up in jail, honest taxpayers pay for it.
point 3 - Enforcing the borders should be done with a strong military force (ie. the national guard) backing up the border patrol. While we are on that subject, they need a TON more border agents on both borders. Again the Constitution is vauge about many, many things. But it clearly mandates that the federal government maintain and protect the integrity of our national borders. I was pissed at Clinton when he did nothing, and pissed at W cause he is not doing shit either. Both the left and right want the hispanic vote so bad, that they are ignoring the border issue and hence breaking the law of the land.
point 4 - Despite what many ‘peace and love’ types would have us believe, there are a whole class of Islam-facist who HATE Americans. They have declared a holy war on us, and hope to land a nice spot in heaven by sending some of us infidels to hell. It was wrong when western Europe did it in the Crusades, and its wrong now for all those terrorist bastards. The big difference is the Crusaders used swords and catipults, the terrorist are using planes, and bombs.

It breaks down like this - we are a land of LAWS and the law of the land is that the borders be secured by the federal government. We the people must demand that our government follows its own damn rules. We must have a sane guest worker program created - one that would allow those millions of hardworking men and women into this country but do it legally. Give them the same chance to succeed or fail that every other American has. If they work hard and do not commit crimes, we should make it easier for them (ie. less red tape) to become a citizen. But hey living here is a privilage for non-citizens and if they are going to use roads paid for by citizen taxpayers, use the publicly taxpayer funded schools to educate their children, and the list goes on - they are going to have to help with some modest donation to the overhead they impose on any city they are living in. Those small few that are violent felons and/or break the laws, at least now they can be tracked and deported, so that our society does not have to shoulder the burden of their imprisonment. Screw the far left and fuck the far right. The left wants ME to pay for illegal immigrants who commit crimes because I work my ass of and pay a ton of taxes …hell they want to tax me more. They want my child’s classroom overcrowded by illegal immigrants children but not have them help pay for extra teachers. But the rub is the RIGHT wants the same damn thing - to screw me too. Those greedy corporate lobby groups want immigrants to come over here and be slaves to low wages, they want to exploit them. All allowing a porous border does it create an atmosphere of exploitation - and that is most certainly un-American.

Why is it so hard for people to put partisan politics aside, take away the lofty crap and look at the situation in realistic terms?? Lets find a real working compromise that benefits everyone, not to mention makes the country safer.

86

[quote]Professor X wrote:
According to Rainjack, this is a non-issue. Like I said, many in this country have become extremely arrogant concerning our place in the world.
[/quote]

I think myopic panic such as yours makes a problem where there is none. We’re less than 4 years out from the worst acts of terrorism in our history.

Just because you look out your door and don’t see terrorists running up and down your street like unleashed dogs, don’t think for a second that there is not still a threat.

As for us not stopping terrorists by our reduced visa approvals - how is that even quantifiable? I don’t think those that want inside our borders to do us harm are going to go on Larry King and advertise if they are denied entry.

The Great State of Texas requires my kids to get chicken pox vaccinations. it can make them very sick - as some MLV’s and even some KV’s will do. Using your logic, I should never allow my children to get the vaccine because there is no sense taking a step or two back to help insure that something far more lethal can be prevented.

How have you mistook caution for arrogance? It would be arrogant for me to assume that medical research should take a back seat to my myopic sense of reality.

They got the shot.

87

[quote]rainjack wrote:
As for us not stopping terrorists by our reduced visa approvals - how is that even quantifiable? [/quote]

Guess what type of visas did the terrorists that “participated” in the 9/11 attack have?

Nope, they weren’t H1’s…

So, what’s the point of reducing the H1’s 4-fold? Tell me, I’m all ears…

88

[quote]hspder wrote:
rainjack wrote:
As for us not stopping terrorists by our reduced visa approvals - how is that even quantifiable?

Guess what type of visas did the terrorists that “participated” in the 9/11 attack have?

Nope, they weren’t H1’s…

So, what’s the point of reducing the H1’s 4-fold? Tell me, I’m all ears…
[/quote]

You’re answering a question with a question. This isn’t a class, although I have a feeling you are going to attempt to take me to school. But before that - howabout answering my question?

89

[quote]Joe Weider wrote:
Professor X wrote:
hspder wrote:
So, essentially, our post-9/11 visa policies have been reducing the influx of hard working, qualified people, while contributing absolutely nothing to prevent terrorists from entering this country.

Fortunately, we don’t rely exclusively on that visa policy to stop them; if we did, we’d be in big trouble.

According to Rainjack, this is a non-issue. Like I said, many in this country have become extremely arrogant concerning our place in the world.

of course we’re arrogant about our place in the world. America is the greatest country on the face of the world, despite the nay-sayers and negativism from certain segments.

[/quote]

JW, I’m not trying to get in a name calling match I’m really just compelled to ask you if you really feal this way. Nany, nany, nany, we’re the greatest country. It just seems like childish thinking to me.

I have a great deal of respect and gratitude for the fact that I was born an American. I much prefer it to many of the countries in chaos, but again I don’t feel a blind allegiance and a need to carry an if you aint american you aint shit attitude. I know you didn’t say that, but that’s the vibe I get.

What if tomorrow you woke up as a citizen of Argentina or some other country would your world be shattered because you weren’t American?

I can already imagine your response it will be fishing for a laugh from you’re buddies, but I ask in all seriousness.

90

[quote]rainjack wrote:
As for us not stopping terrorists by our reduced visa approvals - how is that even quantifiable?

howabout answering my question?
[/quote]

OK, I’ll be a little less cryptic this time.

Imagine you always leave your back door and your window open when you leave your home during the day. One day, you get robbed. So from that day on, you close your window – but still leave the door open.

Since your are leaving your door open, what impact did you have by closing the window? Is is that hard to quantify? No. The answer is clear: because you left the door open (tourist visas), closing the window (H1’s) makes no difference; the burglars can still come in waltzing through the door.

91

I owned a small ranch on the Rio Grande. I sold it. It is a problem when 20 to 50 “school kids” come through your yard almost everynight, picking up anything not locked up, turning on the water, checking to see if anyones in the house. Really great feeling waking up in the middle of the night to prowlers on a regular basis! You would be upset too, and yeah you do grab up your rifle to go check it out! Put your self in those shoes! I had a wonderful home and had to make the nightly choice of do I need to shot someone or leave!

92

[quote]nopal_juventus wrote:
Man, I shouldn’t have to deal with this. SATs, IB, and AP tests are coming up. So, since I’m too lazy to type up my response… I copy it from the last time I argued about this on another forum…
[/quote]

Oh Goddamnit. To think I took all that time trying to educate you and you’re not even out of high school. Argh – a high school communist.

On a separate note, you said were a Mexican. Do they have all those same tests in SATs, APs, etc. in Mexico?

93

Maybe someone can answer this for me… How are our immigration quotas determined? How many people do we let in legally? Is it on a country-by-country basis?

94

[quote]hspder wrote:
Imagine you always leave your back door and your window open when you leave your home during the day. One day, you get robbed. So from that day on, you close your window – but still leave the door open.

Since your are leaving your door open, what impact did you have by closing the window? Is is that hard to quantify? No. The answer is clear: because you left the door open (tourist visas), closing the window (H1’s) makes no difference; the burglars can still come in waltzing through the door.
[/quote]

Everybody knows robbers always come in through the window - geez.

Seriously though. To use your analogy, you are saying that instead of working to close both the window and the door - we should leave them both open. Or just shut the door and leave the window open.

I’m in favor of shutting the door and the window.

But Bush’s track record on immigration and visas leaves much to be desired.

95

[quote]MarineCadre wrote:
I owned a small ranch on the Rio Grande. I sold it. It is a problem when 20 to 50 “school kids” come through your yard almost everynight, picking up anything not locked up, turning on the water, checking to see if anyones in the house. Really great feeling waking up in the middle of the night to prowlers on a regular basis! You would be upset too, and yeah you do grab up your rifle to go check it out! Put your self in those shoes! I had a wonderful home and had to make the nightly choice of do I need to shot someone or leave![/quote]

There you go. MarineCadre just owned this thread. Comments anyone?

96

[quote]Cream wrote:
Maybe someone can answer this for me… How are our immigration quotas determined? How many people do we let in legally? Is it on a country-by-country basis?[/quote]

There are limits on the H1B’s that are global, i.e., not country-by-country. The global limit for 2005 was 65,000, but it was reached so quickly that congress approved an increase to 75,000 and might approve a further increase to 85,000.

Pre-9/11, the limit was between 250,000 and 200,000.

H1B’s are TEMPORARY visas – you can only stay here on an H1 for 3 years, and it is only renewable once (total: 6 years). After the 6 years, you’re outta here!

Unless, of course, you get a Green Card. Those are permanent. For those there are absolutely no quotas. You can get a Green Card is if a) you have close family living in the US, b) you have a company sponsoring you that can prove it was completely impossible for them to find a US citizen to do your job or c) you can prove your life is in danger if you come back to your country.

The large majority of people get their Green Card on the latter option; I have huge problems with the criteria for that option, because, for example, anyone from China that claims to be a theist (Christian, Muslim, anything) automatically gets a Green Card because they can claim that theists are persecuted and killed in China.

Yeah, right.

Finally, there’s the “Diversity Visa Lottery”.

The congressionally mandated Diversity Immigrant Visa Program is administered on an annual basis by the Department of State and conducted under the terms of Section 203(c) of the Immigration and
Nationality Act (INA). Section 131 of the Immigration Act of 1990 (Pub. L. 101-649) amended INA 203 to provide for a new class of immigrants known as ‘‘diversity immigrants’’ (DV immigrants). The Act makes available 50,000 permanent resident visas annually to persons from countries with low rates of immigration to the United States.

The annual DV program makes permanent residence visas available to persons meeting the simple, but strict, eligibility requirements.
Applicants for Diversity Visas are chosen by a computer-generated random lottery drawing. The visas, however, are distributed among six geographic regions with a greater number of visas going to regions with lower rates of immigration, and with no visas going to citizens of countries sending more than 50,000 immigrants to the U.S. in the past five years. Within each region, no one country may receive more than seven percent of the available Diversity Visas in any one year.

For DV-2006, natives of the following countries are not eligible to apply because they sent a total of more than 50,000 immigrants to the U.S. in the previous five years (the term ‘‘country’’ in this case includes countries, economies and other jurisdictions explicitly listed in this case): Canada, China (mainland-born), Colombia, Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Haiti, India, Jamaica, Mexico, Pakistan, Philippines, Russia, South Korea, United Kingdom (except Northern Ireland) and its dependent territories, and Vietnam. Persons born in Hong Kong SAR, Macau SAR and Taiwan are eligible.

Lemme now if you have more detailed questions; historically, two-thirds of Stanford’s academia is from outside the US, and so is my wife, so let’s say I have a LOT of experience on immigration laws. :slight_smile:

97

[quote]nopal_juventus wrote:

"Ok, before I start, let me make it clear that my opinion is biased (being mexican will do that to you)
[/quote]

Did you enter the country legally? If so, don’t you think others should follow the same laws your family had to follow?

My wife is hispanic (second generation American), and I’ve lived on the border for about 5 years. I taught four years in a school that was 93% children of migrant (mostly illegal) farmworkers. Those kids worked their asses off in the summer, and they worked their asses off in the classroom. I’m as proud of every one of them as I am of my own kids.

The biggest problem I have with the way the system is set up now is that as soon as these people cross the border, they are criminals. They know they are already criminals, and a lot of them figure they might as well act that way.

My wife had her Identity stolen by an illegal alien who ended up in Arkansas working at a chicken factory. Completely fucked my wife’s credit, got us in trouble with the IRS, and almost cost my wife her nursing license. We are still trying to sort everything out. Had this lady been able to enter the country legally, most likely none of this would have happened.

If we allow less outside brainpower into the country, is there any chance that our education system would straighten itself out and actually produce the brains from within?

98

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
There you go. MarineCadre just owned this thread. Comments anyone?

[/quote]

How about, we covered that already and no one in this thread would have faulted him for protecting his own personal land from someone attempting to invade his house? I don’t think anyone here has written that illegal crossing is a great thing or that we should rejoice at immigrants crossing through the backyards of Americans to gain entry to this country. I do believe the underlying current is that we should not be so against immigrants and possibly major changes need to be made in how they can LEGALLY attain entry, not some disregard for what they have to go through now as we tighten all borders.

The issue of turning away future talented engineers, doctors, and researchers due to extreme changes in how immigrants can gain entry into the country doesn’t seem to be a minority voice in this thread either.

99

Marinecadre definitely has a point. That would put a twist in my chonies. I can’t deny its a serious problem and it’s very apparent here in Colorado as well. Damn.

100

Thanks Hspder.

What are these numbers (250 000, 65 000 etc.) based on? I would have to guess they are pretty arbitrary if there are however many millions of illegals living here that came to get jobs. Is this the case, or is there some kind of complicated formula that determines this?

And why would September 11th affect people seeking to immigrate legally? Do we not thoroughly check up on these people?