Milk Causes Osteoporosis

Nutrition
81

[quote]Professor X wrote:
btm62 wrote:
In response to your query about what antibiotics are in milk, I would humbly suggest you do a search on antibiotics in milk. I just did one via the yahoo search engine. There are plenty of results and a quick browse showed some I’ve heard of. I have kids with ears. Now, I don’t want to get off on legal limits of antibiotics in milk, but they are there. Which is all my post stated.

Then post them.

Read em yourself!

Again, since you seem to be knowledgeable on the topic, I will ask, why if you prescribe antibiotics, do you not also prescribe probiotics. (If that is the case.) And If you are knowledgable, I would like to hear your opinions on probiotics.

If I prescribe antibiotics for a local infection, why would I give intestinal probiotics? You buy that at GNC or health food stores. You don’t get PRESCRIPTIONS for acidophilus. Acidophilus won’t do shit for cellulitis.
[/quote]

Gee I don’t know, I’m not a big know it all God damn Dr. Read my post ego boy. It says its my opinion and I’m asking questions. Maybe you could take it in the spirit in which it was intended instead of being a pompous windbag. You’ve danced around all my questions pretty well. I guess I’ll take that as an “I don’t know”.

I know you don’t need a PRESCRIPTION for acidophilus. I don’t really give a crap about cellulitis. Maybe, just maybe I WAS talking generally and didn’t bother to take into account everything literal and in every possible instance. God, I’ve got an 11 yr. old that does that. Maybe he’s gonna be Dr. Hope the asshole phase passes for you soon.

82

[quote]btm62 wrote:
You’ve danced around all my questions pretty well. I guess I’ll take that as an “I don’t know”. [/quote]

What? I answered your “question”. You asked about probiotics. Probiotics like acidophilus are used for intestinal health. Through that they can assist in boosting immune function in those who had problems related to intestinal flora or overall digestive health. They won’t do anything for localized infections which is what would get a prescription.

83

Also, I wasn’t able to find anything about ACTIVE antibiotics in milk. In fact, most of the methods of testing are just now being tested themselves. Antibiotic “residue” (another word for possible molecules left over after digestive processing of drugs) may have been found in unpasteurized milk in the UK. This doesn’t mean that antibiotics are passing directly into humans or that they cause any harm at all. If you have found something else, then discuss it. By not bringing your amazing findings forward, I can only assume that you really didn’t find anything yourself to support what you are being fed by vegan web sites.

84

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Also, I wasn’t able to find anything about ACTIVE antibiotics in milk. In fact, most of the methods of testing are just now being tested themselves. Antibiotic “residue” (another word for possible molecules left over after digestive processing of drugs) may have been found in unpasteurized milk in the UK. This doesn’t mean that antibiotics are passing directly into humans or that they cause any harm at all. If you have found something else, then discuss it. By not bringing your amazing findings forward, I can only assume that you really didn’t find anything yourself to support what you are being fed by vegan web sites.[/quote]

Assume what you wish. It is a fact that most milk contains some level of antibiotics. I am not presenting a thesis or hypothesis of any kind. I was merely asked questions. I was not presenting any amazing findings. Nor was it my mission to bring anything forward. Yes, Vegan websites, that must be it. If you can’t cut it out or prescribe a drug for it, it must not exist.

I tire of this now. It is Friday and time to focus on margaritas. Be cool Prof X.

85

[quote]Assume what you wish. It is a fact that most milk contains some level of antibiotics. I am not presenting a thesis or hypothesis of any kind. I was merely asked questions. I was not presenting any amazing findings. Nor was it my mission to bring anything forward. Yes, Vegan websites, that must be it. If you can’t cut it out or prescribe a drug for it, it must not exist.

I tire of this now. It is Friday and time to focus on margaritas. Be cool Prof X.[/quote]

btm,

Are you as stupid as you sound? If you have factual information, you should post it or point to it because a lot of people would be interested in seeing it.

Now, because you won’t post it and you act all offended it looks like you actually don’t have any information and are getting all defensive because someone is examining your near religious food beliefs.

Was someone saying something about 11 year olds?

86

[quote]vroom wrote:
Assume what you wish. It is a fact that most milk contains some level of antibiotics. I am not presenting a thesis or hypothesis of any kind. I was merely asked questions. I was not presenting any amazing findings. Nor was it my mission to bring anything forward. Yes, Vegan websites, that must be it. If you can’t cut it out or prescribe a drug for it, it must not exist.

I tire of this now. It is Friday and time to focus on margaritas. Be cool Prof X.

btm,

Are you as stupid as you sound? If you have factual information, you should post it or point to it because a lot of people would be interested in seeing it.

Now, because you won’t post it and you act all offended it looks like you actually don’t have any information and are getting all defensive because someone is examining your near religious food beliefs.

Was someone saying something about 11 year olds?[/quote]

Yes, I am as stupid as I sound. What part of “asking questions”, “in my opinion” and “I am still researching it myself” eludes you people? What do you want proof of? Milk has antibiotics? Look it up yourself. That homogenization scars arteries? Look it up yourself. That scarred arteries are prone to hold cholesterol? Look it up yourself. I could care less what YOU think. I don’t need to justify anything to you. I was just asking for an opinion on probiotics. I’d watch who was calling who stupid. I’ve seen some of your posts.

87

btm,

It isn’t about what we think, it is about sharing your findings with others so they can educate themselves, assuming you’ve found something reputable.

It only reflects on the quality of your information sources if you aren’t willing to tell anyone what they are. Until you do, you are just another wild eyed anti-milk nut.

By the way, sorry about initial sentence of my last post, it’s just frustrating, as I’m sure you can understand.

88

[quote]TopSirloin wrote:
Some more on the TWO types of vitamin D. Also, I mispoke - it takes plae skinned individuals just a few mintues to make adequate vitamin D, but may take dark skinned persons hours to get the same equivalent. And also, my last post was written by Dr. Mercola - regardless of what you think of him, he is very well educated and seeks out experts in the field(s) in which he is writting to form his own opinion.

"By John Jacob Cannell, M.D., executive director of The Vitamin D Council

Vitamin D is a vital nutrient that is unique, both in terms of its physiology and because humans rely on both endogenous skin production and exogenous sources to meet biological requirements. Vitamin D is commercially available as vitamin D2, (ergocalciferol) [this is the synthetic form that is added to foods - it is not as biactive as D3 and toxic to some people] made from plant products, and vitamin D3, (cholecalciferol) made from animal products.

Cholecalciferol is also made naturally in the skin by the action of a specific wavelength of ultraviolet light (UVB) interacting with precholesterol. Cholecalciferol is then transported to the liver and turned into calcidiol [(25(OH)D]. In turn, the calcidiol is transported to the kidney and transformed into the steroid calcitriol, which is excreted into the blood to help regulate calcium in the body. This is the main endocrine function of vitamin D.

Meanwhile, many tissues other than the kidney turn calcidiol into calcitriol to help regulate gene expression locally; this is the newly discovered autocrine (inside the cell) and paracrine (surrounding the cell) functions of vitamin D. This autocrine and paracrine function is impaired in vitamin D deficient subjects. All studies show many Americans are vitamin D deficient, especially Blacks, where the problem is pandemic.

This use of calcitriol by other tissues as an autocrine and paracrine hormone is a relatively new discovery that explains its role in human development as well as the many health benefits of vitamin D in other illnesses such as diabetes, hypertension, heart disease, autoimmune illness, at least 13 different cancers and, perhaps, some mental illness.

The Extraordinary Rate of Natural Vitamin D Production

The single most important scientific fact about vitamin D is that young adult Whites make about 20,000 units of vitamin D in their skin within minutes of whole-body, summer-sun exposure. This is 100 times the Adequate Intake (AI) and five times the toxicity maximums (Lowest Observed Adverse Effects Level or LOAEL) recommended by the Institute of Medicine (IOM) for young adults. Therefore, many Americans greatly exceed the IOM?s safety recommendations by simply spending a few minutes outside in their swimming suits!

This extraordinary rate of natural vitamin D production in the skin (20,000 IU) leading to the production of a potent endocrine, paracrine and autocrine steroid hormone leads one (as T.S. Eliot once said), “to an overwhelming question.” Why did Nature design such a complex system reliant on rapid and bountiful production of cholecalciferol? Answer, “Probably for a very good reason.”

Because low calcidiol [25(OH)D] levels (less than 35 ng/ml) are associated with so many chronic illnesses, calcidiol levels are an important part of any laboratory health evaluation and should be routinely checked by physicians. Unfortunately, few physicians are aware of this so perhaps as much as 70 percent of the U.S. population has calcidiol levels below 35 ng/ml. Even when asked to check vitamin D levels, physicians often order calcitriol levels, instead of calcidiol levels, an error that greatly misleads both the physician and the patient."

TS[/quote]

You can get milk fortified with vit D3 or D2, some milk has specific labels (if your actually paranoid about vit d2), despite the fact both have been around for decades without problems. One label Milk “fortified with vitamin D3 100 IUs per 250 ml”.

Personally, I will drink either interchangably.

Please state the specific research article or proof that vitamin D2 is toxic to anyone. Someone’s theoretical rant isnt convincing.

89

[quote]btm62 wrote:

It is Friday and time to focus on margaritas. [/quote]

From FDA recall page:
“There have been several confirmed cases of Salmonella serotype Muenchen reported in the United States and Canada. The illness is associated with drinking unpasteurized orange juice… recalled was fresh margarita mix which contained fresh orange juice in half-gallon containers…Every year, approximately 800,000 to four million cases of Salmonella result in 500 deaths in the United States.”

Better be careful with that margarita, it might be “toxic”, how about a white russian instead?

90

Drinking milk causes osteoporosis???
That’s like saying “drinking water causes thirst” and “drinking alcohol and smoking weed improves your reflexes”
there’s soooooo many studies that scientist and all people are always doing. Most studies are pretty useless information and dumb. Hey maybe they’re right and I’m wrong buti’m still gonna have my Cap’N Crunch cereal with milk and I’m still gonna suck on Big 'O Titties!!!

91

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Uh, yeah. If anyone didn’t know, you are going to die. I know, that sounds so morbid, but it still stands that you will die and, chances are, it will not be in your sleep or during sex.

You are going to die. Say it with me. If you start living life worried about everything that could possibly contribute to death, you might as well give up now. I do believe everything on this planet can kill you in enough quantities…including water.[/quote]

I’m WAAAY late on this but…

Not to blow smoke up X’s ass…but these might be THE most enlightening words I’ve ever read on this site, or even the internet for that matter. I tend to be one of the people that gets caught up in minutiae, and every once in awhile I have to just check my head and say “Shut the fuck up”. Thanks for the post X.

92

[quote]btm62 wrote:
It is a fact that most milk contains some level of antibiotics. [/quote]

if its a FACT then provide some peer reviewed EVIDENCE for this FACT. (a yahoo search is not evidence other thanproviding evidence that there is a lot of stupid people out there)

And take into account that dairy factories that process the milk do not accept antibiotic tainted milk because antibiotics mean they cannot use it for any microbial fermented products.

93

[quote]CC wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Uh, yeah. If anyone didn’t know, you are going to die. I know, that sounds so morbid, but it still stands that you will die and, chances are, it will not be in your sleep or during sex.

You are going to die. Say it with me. If you start living life worried about everything that could possibly contribute to death, you might as well give up now. I do believe everything on this planet can kill you in enough quantities…including water.

I’m WAAAY late on this but…

Not to blow smoke up X’s ass…but these might be THE most enlightening words I’ve ever read on this site, or even the internet for that matter. I tend to be one of the people that gets caught up in minutiae, and every once in awhile I have to just check my head and say “Shut the fuck up”. Thanks for the post X.

[/quote]

To some extent you are right in that at times worrying abouy every little thing to the Nth degree isn’t really helping the big picture. You have got to live your life right?! Sometimes you just have to pick your battles and just hope for the best on the rest, huh.

But, just for shits and giggles, picture this for a minute: there are toxins everywhere, nearly on/in everything we eat, drink, or live in or near. From xenoestrogens, to PCB’s, to CO, to pesticides, to radiation, etc, etc. Now, worrying about these toxins in any one individual place (unless there is a known and immanent danger) some may call anal and unnecessary. Afterall, not many people actual die from say chlorinated/fluoronated water.

However, if you consider these items in an additive factor, we as an “advanced industrialized nation” are getting OVERWHEMLED with multiple sources and forms of toxins that our bodies can no longer process them out and we are getting sick. It’s not just because people eat too much and don’t exercise. There are people that are not 88% bodyfat that are getting sick that probably would not have 30 years ago.

So, to get overly anal about any one item may be a waste of time to you and prof X. But, to just throw your hands up and exclaim “you are going to die”, is a flat out cop out and I would bet most people that live by this know better, but are either too lazy or too afraid to change their thinking.

How about throwing up your hands on transfats? Ahh, it’s just a couple pads of margerine on my buckwheat pancakes each Saturday morning and a small bag of Dorritos with my spinach chicken salad only once this week. But wait… I have “city water” with most of my meals, I live near a power plant, I don’t wash my fruits and veggies as good as I should, I hang out at the local dive every Friday night breathing second hand smoke for 4 hours, and I microwave my lunch in a plastic container everyday because the ceramic one might break if I used it at work!

These tiny minutiea, that don’t measure up to a zit on a fleas elbow by themselves, can add up to one big-ass monster over the course of a lifetime. I feel the processed milk debate is a big deal and is not minutiea simply because every place you can reduce or eliminate a toxin is one more item your body doesn’t have to battle with.

TS

94

[quote]TopSirloin wrote:
CC wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Uh, yeah. If anyone didn’t know, you are going to die. I know, that sounds so morbid, but it still stands that you will die and, chances are, it will not be in your sleep or during sex.

You are going to die. Say it with me. If you start living life worried about everything that could possibly contribute to death, you might as well give up now. I do believe everything on this planet can kill you in enough quantities…including water.

I’m WAAAY late on this but…

Not to blow smoke up X’s ass…but these might be THE most enlightening words I’ve ever read on this site, or even the internet for that matter. I tend to be one of the people that gets caught up in minutiae, and every once in awhile I have to just check my head and say “Shut the fuck up”. Thanks for the post X.

To some extent you are right in that at times worrying abouy every little thing to the Nth degree isn’t really helping the big picture. You have got to live your life right?! Sometimes you just have to pick your battles and just hope for the best on the rest, huh.

But, just for shits and giggles, picture this for a minute: there are toxins everywhere, nearly on/in everything we eat, drink, or live in or near. From xenoestrogens, to PCB’s, to CO, to pesticides, to radiation, etc, etc. Now, worrying about these toxins in any one individual place (unless there is a known and immanent danger) some may call anal and unnecessary. Afterall, not many people actual die from say chlorinated/fluoronated water.

However, if you consider these items in an additive factor, we as an “advanced industrialized nation” are getting OVERWHEMLED with multiple sources and forms of toxins that our bodies can no longer process them out and we are getting sick. It’s not just because people eat too much and don’t exercise. There are people that are not 88% bodyfat that are getting sick that probably would not have 30 years ago.

So, to get overly anal about any one item may be a waste of time to you and prof X. But, to just throw your hands up and exclaim “you are going to die”, is a flat out cop out and I would bet most people that live by this know better, but are either too lazy or too afraid to change their thinking.

How about throwing up your hands on transfats? Ahh, it’s just a couple pads of margerine on my buckwheat pancakes each Saturday morning and a small bag of Dorritos with my spinach chicken salad only once this week. But wait… I have “city water” with most of my meals, I live near a power plant, I don’t wash my fruits and veggies as good as I should, I hang out at the local dive every Friday night breathing second hand smoke for 4 hours, and I microwave my lunch in a plastic container everyday because the ceramic one might break if I used it at work!

These tiny minutiea, that don’t measure up to a zit on a fleas elbow by themselves, can add up to one big-ass monster over the course of a lifetime. I feel the processed milk debate is a big deal and is not minutiea simply because every place you can reduce or eliminate a toxin is one more item your body doesn’t have to battle with.

TS[/quote]

Man, I’m sorry if you took my post the wrong way and thought it was directed at you guys. I guess I should have indicated that was a side comment that had nothing to do with the topic at hand.

The reason I liked the comment so much is because I’m one of those people who worries too much. I’m so anal about my food choices it’s insane (just ask my gf; she lives with me and has to put up with it…hehe). Pretty much all of my shopping is done at a natural/organic foods store close to me; I won’t knowingly buy ANYTHING with hydrogenateds; I only drink water from a bottle, jug; etc. I guess X’s comment is a bit extreme with the whole in-your-face “you will die” thing, but it was more the “quit worrying and live life” message underneath that was appealing to me.

95

Maybe the fact that the life expectancy of humans keeps rising would indicate that we aren’t exactly being buried under a mass of fleas at this point?

Life is a toxin. Your body is built to deal with minor insults. Avoid the major ones and let the chips fall where they may. Eat nutritious foods, get exercise, don’t be obese and your body will do everything it can to stay fit and healthy.

I think that is something that people miss these days. Give your body the tools and it will do its very best to stay alive. Your body doesn’t want to be sick. Give it vegetables, vitamins, minerals, antioxidants, proteins and so on, and it will work a lot better than if you feed it twinkies, donuts and coco puffs.

I think we have much bigger fish to fry in the public health arena than any potential (though as yet unproven) issues with milk.

96

[quote]Professor X wrote:
TopSirloin wrote:
Funny - it just so happens that shortly after LL posted that “milk-debated-flare-up” I came across this book that actually links osteoporosis (and many other deadly diseases) to milk consumption!

I thought the Nation would like to know…

Uh, yeah. If anyone didn’t know, you are going to die. I know, that sounds so morbid, but it still stands that you will die and, chances are, it will not be in your sleep or during sex.

With that said, where is the research about how osteocytes (what those bone making cells are called) are affected by training? This is a bodybuilding site and lifting weights improves bone density. We also don’t know what other factors contributed to bone loss in these women unless ALL they consumed for years was milk. I hate studies like this. Women are more prone to osteoporosis, therefore, it doesn’t exactly surprise me that more of them got the disease. What does surprise me is that anyone would relate a lack of reduction in osteocytes to simply not drinking milk. I don’t get it. Is this some colony that either ONLY drinks milk as their soul source of food or doesn’t drink it at all? What if Cheerios are the culprit and no one tested for that?

You are going to die. Say it with me. If you start living life worried about everything that could possibly contribute to death, you might as well give up now. I do believe everything on this planet can kill you in enough quantities…including water.[/quote]

Osteoblasts, not osteocytes, are the cells that make bone.

97

[quote]DonM wrote:

Osteoblasts, not osteocytes, are the cells that make bone.[/quote]

Osteocytes are osteoblasts that have been trapped in a bone matrix. They are the same cell. The name is simply based on what stage of bone formation they are in. Thanks for the biology lesson. All of them can still be called “Osteocytes” which simply means “bone cell”.

98

[quote]Professor X wrote:
DonM wrote:

Osteoblasts, not osteocytes, are the cells that make bone.

Osteocytes are osteoblasts that have been trapped in a bone matrix. They are the same cell. The name is simply based on what stage of bone formation they are in. Thanks for the biology lesson. All of them can still be called “Osteocytes” which simply means “bone cell”.[/quote]

So it would make sense to say that osteoclasts build bone as well?

99

Hmm, what about iconoclasts? Surely they build skin thickness if not bone…

100

[quote]DonM wrote:
Professor X wrote:
DonM wrote:

Osteoblasts, not osteocytes, are the cells that make bone.

Osteocytes are osteoblasts that have been trapped in a bone matrix. They are the same cell. The name is simply based on what stage of bone formation they are in. Thanks for the biology lesson. All of them can still be called “Osteocytes” which simply means “bone cell”.

So it would make sense to say that osteoclasts build bone as well?[/quote]

No, it wouldn’t. Osteoclasts come from macrophages and have the specific goal of breaking down bone tissue. Osteocytes ARE Osteoblasts and are different off shoots from stem cells in the bone marrow. That means they are not grouped together and are not considered the same cell as osteocytes.