Mentor the Wretched Newbies

Bigger Stronger Leaner Competitive Bodybuilding
21

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
CaliforniaLaw wrote:
I would honestly like to see an example where a “newbie” logged on, asked questions, and was mocked and ridiculed. Really, I would like to see an example of this. Where are these hapless victims?
…
Anyhow, no one actually looking for advice who seemed serious has ever been turned away or mocked.

I think you’ll remember this from the thread “Barardi Phone Consultation?”

"CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
I’m sorry if asking this just n00bs up your simple “Dont substitute information for hard work” message, but:

I get the impression you lift heavy as often as possible. What kind of de-loading/rest techniques have worked for you?

Response from You-know-who:

De-loading and rest techniques? I don’t even use those terms. You’ll have to excuse me if I don’t know the latest lingo being pushed by whatever authors you’ve read. It really means little to nothing to me so I don’t know what you are talking about. Mind you, that is NOT coming from someone uneducated. That is coming from someone who knows more than most about the human body and also cares the least about what every trainer is trying to sell. "

I asked someone what they did, and was mocked for “using the new lingo being pushed by whatever authors I’ve read”. I was further mocked in that the poster pretended to “not know what I was talking about” (nevermind that the lingo I used was self explanatory).

But, of course, since this is objective proof that you are (once again) factually wrong, you’ll do the same as when the it originally occurred: Call me oversensitive and a “little bitch” or whatever it was you said.

By your logic, no poster has ever been mocked or ridiculed for asking a serious question… unless they were oversensitive… in which case it doesn’t count…

[/quote]

Capped,

could you please not turn this thread into a “you’re a meanie and I told you so” thread.

Don’t hijack it.

Tribulus is trying to shift focus. Let’s go with that, not air old grievances.

22

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Discrimination! I must attack any and all posters on this thread!
[/quote]

Not you again . . .

23

I have been at this a year. The 5 years I lifted every term in college means shit because I have learned a more in the last year at 24 hour fitness ( NO TRAINER ) than I ever learned in college.

I have a work out that works for me but there is questions about suplements, maybe a few questions about the best style of weight to lift etc.

It’s real easy to say " what ever best works for you " but tell that to the guy slinging a curlbar back and forth or the guy roatating when he is doing traps with a long bar instead of just lifting up…

Anyhow just my 2 cents, I have been browing thru the archives ( search function sucks ) Sometimes after reading an article that uses terms I don’t understand I have questions…

24

[quote]CaliforniaLaw wrote:
I would honestly like to see an example where a “newbie” logged on, asked questions, and was mocked and ridiculed. Really, I would like to see an example of this. Where are these hapless victims?

What usually happens is that a person logs on, says he wants advice; and when he is given advice that he doesn’t want to hear, pitches a fit. “How dare you tell me I need to eat lift harder?! You are wrong! CrossFit rulz!” I suppose the more mature thing to do would be to ignore those people.

Oh, and right now a person has posted a brand new thread asking about when to take BCAAs. Because, well, running a search for BCAAs would turn up zero results. Does anyone seriously think someone who is too dumb or too lazy to run a simple search is really going to endeavor to anything great? These people want things handed to them. They are not willing to work hard and will quit as soon as the newbie gains stop coming so quickly.

Anyhow, no one actually looking for advice who seemed serious has ever been turned away or mocked.[/quote]

Of course my track record shows that I agree with you here. Like I said above, the main point of this thread was to address TC’s assertion that serious weight trainers are a dying breed and that without some evangelism that situation isn’t going to improve.

I’m willing to try a bit harder to give some of these guys the benefit of the doubt, as difficult as that will be because of the reasons you here cite.

Honestly, I don’t hold out much hope that it would make much difference if 1000 eminently tactful and diplomatic new members registered today and began a textbook quest aimed at re-educating the lifting masses. I think this because I really believe this whole thing is just one symptom in a much larger epidemic feminization of the modern male.

Having said all that, what choice is there? I am not thrilled with wading through half a million pounds of unteachable, ab fixated girly boys in the hopes of finding one who “gets it” either.

What TC is saying, unless he reports that I’m wrong, is that without these guys the T-Nation population will recede in dramatic manner because that’s all that’s left in the world so we may as well see how many we can fix, to put it snarkily.

25

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
Capped,

could you please not turn this thread into a “you’re a meanie and I told you so” thread.

Don’t hijack it.

Tribulus is trying to shift focus. Let’s go with that, not air old grievances.

[/quote]

Octobergirl,

Your post makes little sense. CaliforniaLaw asked for an example of someone being mocked for asking a serious question. So… I gave an example of someone being mocked for asking a serious question. That is not a hijack.

26

Capped,

No offense man, but if youd been on this board for 15 minutes, you should have known how that question, given who you were asking, was going to be answered.

27

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:
Capped,

could you please not turn this thread into a “you’re a meanie and I told you so” thread.

Don’t hijack it.

Tribulus is trying to shift focus. Let’s go with that, not air old grievances.

Octobergirl,

Your post makes little sense. CaliforniaLaw asked for an example of someone being mocked for asking a serious question. So… I gave an example of someone being mocked for asking a serious question. That is not a hijack. [/quote]

There’s such a thing as a question being asked in all seriousness that’s impossible take seriously. That thread was a perfect example. Here was a generally good natured guy who appears willing to do (and spend) just about anything to make progress EXCEPT work his ass off and eat enough.

Guys like him are a tragedy to me because if he could have been gotten to before he jammed his head full of cellular level, micro nutritional “data” and subsequently declared himself an expert while eating like a chipmunk he may have really went somewhere.

Instead of a progressing, growing young, (and fairly smart) guy who learned as he gained experience AND studied we instead have a prematurely overeducated, self proclaimed physiology professor asking whether he should pay somebody else 200 bucks to tell him what to eat. Confusion incarnate and very tough to get anywhere with.

28

[quote]fightingtiger wrote:
Capped,

No offense man, but if youd been on this board for 15 minutes, you should have known how that question, given who you were asking, was going to be answered.[/quote]

You’re probably right. Had I known the Prof a little better, I wouldn’t have wasted my time.

29

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:
Capped,

could you please not turn this thread into a “you’re a meanie and I told you so” thread.

Don’t hijack it.

Tribulus is trying to shift focus. Let’s go with that, not air old grievances.

Octobergirl,

Your post makes little sense. CaliforniaLaw asked for an example of someone being mocked for asking a serious question. So… I gave an example of someone being mocked for asking a serious question. That is not a hijack.

There’s such a thing as a question being asked in all seriousness that’s impossible take seriously. That thread was a perfect example. Here was a generally good natured guy who appears willing to do (and spend) just about anything to make progress EXCEPT work his ass off and eat enough.

Guys like him are a tragedy to me because if he could have been gotten to before he jammed his head full of cellular level, micro nutritional “data” and subsequently declared himself an expert while eating like a chipmunk he may have really went somewhere.

Instead of a progressing, growing young, (and fairly smart) guy who learned as he gained experience AND studied we instead have a prematurely overeducated, self proclaimed physiology professor asking whether he should pay somebody else 200 bucks to tell him what to eat. Confusion incarnate and very tough to get anywhere with.[/quote]

I agree with you about the OP of that thread; he had some issues with gaining weight since he grew up heavy, and seemed to have the “information overload” syndrome where he thought everything had to be monitored down to the nanocalorie.

My post in this thread, though, to CLaw, was in reference to the aside question I asked X and was mocked for; and was only referenced because he asked for an example of said happening.

30

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Why not explain that without significant muscle mass, he wont look “ripped” even at low bodyfat levels?[/quote]

If they’re skinny before they cut, how do they not realize they will be skinner afterwards? Are they that dense?

Why not read any of several thousand strength training articles across the internet? Why do they need to be spoon fed this information in order to learn it? There’s no shortage of information out there.

Agreed, they are free to have whatever goals they wish, however that does not mean they are beyond criticism. You can sit there and say “well its his goal and you have to respect that”, to a certain extent I agree, but I will not offer any encouraging words to a goal of mediocrity. Sorry.

I read strength training articles from T-Nation and other sites, and read about nutrition for a few months before I began to start working out. I didn’t realize it was such a foreign idea to educate yourself about something before doing it, especially when a lack of knowledge about the subject can lead you farther away from your goals or even cause injury.

Hell, I was 14 years old and somehow this concept of preparing did not escape me, why should we pander to these people who can’t put forth a simple bit of effort to read a couple pages about the very basics of bodybuilding. As has been said before, if they cannot muster up the effort to run a search for their question or just google it, what reason is there to think they will follow through on any advice given?[/quote]

[quote]Wouldn’t it help more to get people excited about lifting instead of putting them down because the more experienced lifters want to feel better about themselves?
[/quote]

I would love to see people more excited about lifting. I for one, don’t understand how there can be a lack of motivation, ESPECIALLY ON THIS SITE, when there are powerful images of insanely powerful physiques, stories of competition, stories of success from other posters, etc. The motivation to do better can be found in almost any section of these forums, from Strength Sports to Physique and Performance photos.

31

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
<<< My post in this thread, though, to CLaw, was in reference to the aside question I asked X and was mocked for; and was only referenced because he asked for an example of said happening.[/quote]

Holding grudges is going to age you early man.

32

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

Holding grudges is going to age you early man. [/quote]

Especially internet grudges.

Shit, real-life is tough enough to get through without wanting to constantly strangle people. If you can’t let go of some internet persona not responding to a question the way you wanted, you’re screwed.

33

PATIENCE MY SON…

34

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
<<< My post in this thread, though, to CLaw, was in reference to the aside question I asked X and was mocked for; and was only referenced because he asked for an example of said happening.

Holding grudges is going to age you early man. [/quote]

I’m not holding a grudge.

Why is this so difficult?

Claw: I’d like to see an example!!

Me: Here is an example.

Everybody else: OMG WHY DID YOU BRING THAT UP?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?

I’m not “holding a grudge” or “calling him a meanie” or any other such nonsense.

He said it didn’t happen. He asked for a fucking example So I showed him an example of it happening.

The fuck is so hard to grasp about that?!

35

[quote]Magnate wrote:
CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Why not explain that without significant muscle mass, he wont look “ripped” even at low bodyfat levels?

If they’re skinny before they cut, how do they not realize they will be skinner afterwards? Are they that dense?
[/quote]

Maybe they are a bit dense, maybe thats why they need mentoring…? Maybe they dont realize how skinny they are, maybe they actually think they’ve got a decent build under their “fat”, but have no frame of reference.

Whats the point of the forums, then? Why not just shut the whole thing down and leave up one post that says “The answer you are looking for is out there, do your own research.”? Sometimes it helps people when they dont have to read 50 pages of one thread to find a simple answer that someone who has knowledge of the area could easily answer. Or, other times it helps if they get pointed to the right thread or the right article.

I’m not saying you or anyone else needs to give words of encouragement to anybody. Just that I dont see the need to bitch about someone elses goals.

You did the right thing; some other people need a bit more guidance though. And sure, sometimes the advice will fall on deaf ears; but I think the point is to try because you love the sport and think the chance that they’ll use the advice is worth it, regardless of the odds.

[quote]

Wouldn’t it help more to get people excited about lifting instead of putting them down because the more experienced lifters want to feel better about themselves?

I would love to see people more excited about lifting. I for one, don’t understand how there can be a lack of motivation, ESPECIALLY ON THIS SITE, when there are powerful images of insanely powerful physiques, stories of competition, stories of success from other posters, etc. The motivation to do better can be found in almost any section of these forums, from Strength Sports to Physique and Performance photos. [/quote]

Absolutely, there are tons of inspirational things on here, provided you’re in the right mindset. Consider “planet fitness”, and the “no grunting” rule: For some people (most of the people here) hearing someone else working their ass off is an inspiration, a challenge, its motivation; but to others, its scary and intimidating.

Some people can look at the powerful images and get inspired; others may become dejected and think “There is no way in hell I’ll ever look like that, so whats the point in even trying?”

The deal with mentoring, IMO, is trying to take someone from the “I could never” mindset to the “I will” mindset.

36

This thread is a fascinating look at generational differences.

I’m guessing at ages here, but from what I’ve seen, the majority of the individuals who are experienced would fall into the X generation. The X generation is marked by independence, personal achievement, and a healthy interest in innovation. The majority of the new lifters would probably fall into the Millennial generation, marked by a need for reinforcement, ability to work as a team, and an awareness and active immersion in such “soft” concepts such as self-esteem.

I think this gap is beginning to show on this site. Perhaps one way to reach more new lifters is to say the message in a different way. Whether we like it or not, the idea of masculinity is changing. Perhaps we can accomplish more by showing new lifters what we believe masculinity means, in the language of a Millennial. Maybe an age limit for certain forums? Perhaps a questionnaire that all new lifters must complete in their profile before they can ask for advice (i.e. what do you want to accomplish, how much do you want to weigh, how much do you want to deadlift, can you actually perform a deadlift, etc.)? Then, if an individual asks for help, experienced lifters can look at their goals, look at their needs, and answer accordingly. Most of the threads I see from new lifters have a second post that is some variant of “what is your current diet/lifting program/weight/etc.”

Or, a step further: Big Man/Little Brother program for new individuals who want to learn, perhaps passing through a vetting process? This is a wildly optimisic view of an assurance game between two individuals, but think of what could be accomplished.

37

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Magnate wrote:
CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Why not explain that without significant muscle mass, he wont look “ripped” even at low bodyfat levels?

If they’re skinny before they cut, how do they not realize they will be skinner afterwards? Are they that dense?

Maybe they are a bit dense, maybe thats why they need mentoring…? Maybe they dont realize how skinny they are, maybe they actually think they’ve got a decent build under their “fat”, but have no frame of reference.

Why not teach him about squats and deadlifts and pullups and how those will get him to his goals instead of cardio kickboxing and thousands of situps?

Why not read any of several thousand strength training articles across the internet? Why do they need to be spoon fed this information in order to learn it? There’s no shortage of information out there.

Whats the point of the forums, then? Why not just shut the whole thing down and leave up one post that says “The answer you are looking for is out there, do your own research.”? Sometimes it helps people when they dont have to read 50 pages of one thread to find a simple answer that someone who has knowledge of the area could easily answer. Or, other times it helps if they get pointed to the right thread or the right article.[/quote]

Point taken. The forums are here to help these people, but I don’t think the general aggravation with “newbies” is surrounding their questions about exercises/routines (typically) but more towards their attitude and finding the “one true way” as you said.

[quote]Why attack someone if they have a different physique goal than you? If they want to look like Brad Pitt, or Butterbean, or Howard the fucking Duck… why give them shit about it?

Agreed, they are free to have whatever goals they wish, however that does not mean they are beyond criticism. You can sit there and say “well its his goal and you have to respect that”, to a certain extent I agree, but I will not offer any encouraging words to a goal of mediocrity. Sorry.

I’m not saying you or anyone else needs to give words of encouragement to anybody. Just that I dont see the need to bitch about someone elses goals.[/quote]

Agreed, but I will undoubtedly continue to laugh at certain “goals” despite trying to respect them. I’m fine with being a hypocrite in that aspect I suppose.

The people who let someone else’s accomplishments vex them that much, so much that they completely give up, do not belong in a place dedicated to self improvement, in my opinion. They obviously will fail, and I doubt this area of life (bodybuilding) will be the only place.

Ideally yes, but the vast majority of people are seemingly content with not making any major changes and just sitting, and waiting, for their bodies to change. It’s a shame, I would love to see more people be open to information and become more happy with themselves, but realistically when people hear something they don’t want to hear they start shutting out all advice and keep repeating the same crap. They will sit there and reiterate their point over and over, never conceding an inch and never changing anything, and they wonder why they didn’t accomplish their goal.

38

[quote]nicolasdarling wrote:
Maybe an age limit for certain forums?
[/quote]
Not all of the teenagers that post here are as ignorant as those shining stars that have come to represent teens collectively.

Interesting point, usually the diet/routine/weight/etc are left out of posts asking for advice by beginners, maybe making including this criteria a prerequisite to posting would help.

[quote]Or, a step further: Big Man/Little Brother program for new individuals who want to learn, perhaps passing through a vetting process? This is a wildly optimisic view of an assurance game between two individuals, but think of what could be accomplished.
[/quote]

Unfortunately most newbies don’t stick with it, and something like this would undoubtedly waste a more experienced lifter’s time, more often than not.

39

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
<<< I’m not holding a grudge.

Why is this so difficult?

Claw: I’d like to see an example!!

Me: Here is an example.

Everybody else: OMG WHY DID YOU BRING THAT UP?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?

[/quote]

He asked a meat headed question (albeit seriously) and then retreated into an elitest shell all the while lost on a dark road of WTF do I do now?

Maybe I just understand Professor X better than a lot of guys here which I’m sure will damage my credibility with those same individuals, but what he was saying was the last thing this kid needs now is more in house jargon and erudite sounding phraseology. He pissed you off and you’re still pissed. Denying that is pointless.

To attempt to say this is not an attempt to draw attention to you being “abused” is disingenuous. Hell, I was usually on the guys side and I could point you to instances much worse than this where he REALLY came down on somebody, but they wouldn’t involve you. You chose this because he busted your balls and he’s not even here for the moment to defend himself.

There are 2 things I know for sure about the serious people that come to this site:

1> Not one is perfect and they all have said things that could have been handled better, myself included.

2> Not one has failed to go repeatedly above and beyond the call of duty with guys who have asked honest questions for which there weren’t already 200 threads extant and even sometimes when there was.

There have EVEN been times where guys started off with their head firmly up their ass, practically talking out of their own navel, and after having been chided for their ignorance have responded with “OK, then where am I goin wrong”

Some of these ruthless meanies have taken the time, in the same thread, to spell out in detail how they could help themselves get ahead only to be spat upon in the end with some version “NAH, I like what I’ve BEEN doing”

After enough of that from sloganeering name droppers who weigh less than their dog and it begins to get old.

40

[quote]nicolasdarling wrote:
This thread is a fascinating look at generational differences. >>>[/quote]

You need to get out of the classroom and do a tour or two in northern Iraq friend. I had to take a quick peek down my shorts and make sure my testicles didn’t fall off after reading this post.