[quote]alexus wrote:
how about racism?[/quote]
I feel like somebody should give alexus some sort of legitimate response . . .
[quote]alexus wrote:
arguments of this form?
‘people have always done x therefore x is morally acceptable’ don’t work. it is an ‘appeal to history’ and it is important that just because something may have been done in the past doesn’t make it morally acceptable.[/quote]
I think most of us are saying that whether or not it’s morally acceptable, it’s what needs to be done to be competitive on the international stage (once everything else gets sorted out, like increasing interest in the sport, having a good-sized field of lifters, having a good support system for those lifters, etc). I know I’ve been trying to avoid taking a side on the morality issue.
[quote]alexus wrote:
You are being idealistic because you are expecting something to happen which simply won’t happen.
so what do you think should happen then?[/quote]
I could be wrong, but I think yarni was calling you idealistic because people can and will cheat if they can get away with it (especially with what’s on the line for some of these athletes), and I haven’t really seen you accept this fact yet. Not everyone shares your views on morality and fair competition (though many do), and this is evident in the passionate nature of forum arguments on PEDs. People seem to either support the use of PEDs to put us on a “level playing field” with the rest of the world, or they seem to think we should accept whatever we get as clean athletes and/or crack down hard on the “cheaters,” and there aren’t too many shades of grey in between.
[quote]alexus wrote:
i’m pissy that someone came here and lied to us about the doping thing (could have just ignored the TRUE allegations)…[/quote]
Are you talking about this thread? http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_body_training_performance_bodybuilding_olympic/first_american_200_kilo_snatch
[quote]alexus wrote:
and i get pissy that people go ‘wah genetics that is why i can’t make progress’ (instead of looking at other issues like sleep and nutrition) and that people go ‘wah steroids that is why america sucks’ (instead of similarly looking at other issues that seem pretty fucking pertinent such as getting lots of kids involved seriously from a young age).
[/quote]
I don’t like it either when people start making excuses for their own shortcomings, but to deny that PEDs play a large role in why North American lifters are subpar compared to the rest of the world is pretty ignorant, in my opinion. Yes, there are many reasons why “America sucks” and many things that should be easier to fix/change, but that doesn’t change the fact that PEDs are a reason as well.
I feel like somebody should give alexus some sort of legitimate response . . .
why? it is so much more fun to not think very hard.
arguments of this form?
‘people have always done x therefore x is morally acceptable’ don’t work. it is an ‘appeal to history’ and it is important that just because something may have been done in the past doesn’t make it morally acceptable.
I think most of us are saying that whether or not it’s morally acceptable, it’s what needs to be done to be competitive on the international stage (once everything else gets sorted out, like increasing interest in the sport, having a good-sized field of lifters, having a good support system for those lifters, etc). I know I’ve been trying to avoid taking a side on the morality issue.
oh, the claim is that only cheats make it onto the international stage. i see.
I think yarni was calling you idealistic because people can and will cheat if they can get away with it
some people will. some people won’t.
i do think the morality issue comes up:
is it okay to cheat? should we go easy on people who do cheat?
i thought people were saying ‘YES’
‘it is okay because EVERYONE on the international stage is doing it and that is what you HAVE to do in order to be competitive’.
two points:
i don’t believe EVERYONE on the international stage is cheating. i do believe that many don’t make it to the international stage because they are beaten by people who cheat.
i don’t think that that is okay.
i don’t think that it is acceptable for people to cheat to make it and attempt to justify why they cheated others out of their rightful place by saying ‘everyone else is doing it’. if you aren’t part of the solution (not cheating) you are part of the problem.
yeah, i was talking about that thread.
to be fair it did go on and i didn’t read all of it. maybe broz didn’t actually answer the PED question. i didn’t see an explicit denial on the pages i read, to be fair. a lot that implied it but nothing explicit. misleading though to be sure. could have simply ignored all the PED stuff.
to deny that PEDs play a large role in why North American lifters are subpar compared to the rest of the world is pretty ignorant, in my opinion. Yes, there are many reasons why “America sucks” and many things that should be easier to fix/change, but that doesn’t change the fact that PEDs are a reason as well.
i don’t know that i denied it.
i don’t deny that genetics plays a role in bodybuilding…
but whenever people complain about their crappy genetics i always refocus on things that they CAN (you know, legally, naturally, whatever) do something about…
if you are going by whats legal then you have problems, some of the substances that the government allows you to legally have … well i’d intra venously inject rat poison before taking those, but it’s ok to take them because the FDA said so?
as far as PED’s go… its a long way to the top
[quote]bcingu wrote:
[quote]alexus wrote:
debra - i feel sad for pat, too. if anything i think the adults are more responsible. you know, those coaching him etc.
yarni - i hope you are young.
i’m generally a cynic, too.
arguments of this form?
‘people have always done x therefore x is morally acceptable’ don’t work. it is an ‘appeal to history’ and it is important that just because something may have been done in the past doesn’t make it morally acceptable.
e.g., rape is a big part of human history. you think it is inevitable (therefore acceptable?) as well? how about racism? think we should accept that as inevitable, too? genocide? do i really need to go on???
You are being idealistic because you are expecting something to happen which simply won’t happen.
so what do you think should happen then?
anything goes? lift the ban on substances…
the way i see it we have two routes (if we accept the current rules)
-
think that other countries / people getting away with cheating justifies it / requires it for ourself (you know, if we are properly ambitious)
-
think that other countries / people getting away with cheating requires more testing of those getting away with it. level the playing field that way.
i’m kinda an advocate of the latter in case you hadn’t noticed.
i’m not sulky about what happened…
i’m pissy that someone came here and lied to us about the doping thing (could have just ignored the TRUE allegations)…
and i get pissy that people go ‘wah genetics that is why i can’t make progress’ (instead of looking at other issues like sleep and nutrition) and that people go ‘wah steroids that is why america sucks’ (instead of similarly looking at other issues that seem pretty fucking pertinent such as getting lots of kids involved seriously from a young age).
[/quote]
[/quote]
lol
[quote]heavythrower wrote:
"This happened because we created a real moral dilemna for our athletes. Our society as a whole is very anti-steroid… they are demonized here.
[/quote]
Moral delimma? What?
Mere winning or losing, or any amount of success, at weightlifting — and most every other sporting event — is no way, shape, or form a moral dilemma. A dilemma, maybe. Certainly, though, not a moral dilemma because morality cannot measured by counting up the wins and losses. Although illicit substance use may improve the chances of success, the ‘use’ and ‘success’ do not carry the same moral weight. Proposing each carries comparable moral weight is a false dichotomy. It’s not stealing food to feed starving children — it’s heaving more weight above head than the next guy or gal.
[quote]Abedd Ame wrote:
[quote]heavythrower wrote:
"This happened because we created a real moral dilemna for our athletes. Our society as a whole is very anti-steroid… they are demonized here.
[/quote]
Moral delimma? What?
Mere winning or losing, or any amount of success, at weightlifting — and most every other sporting event — is no way, shape, or form a moral dilemma. A dilemma, maybe. Certainly, though, not a moral dilemma because morality cannot measured by counting up the wins and losses. Although illicit substance use may improve the chances of success, the ‘use’ and ‘success’ do not carry the same moral weight. Proposing each carries comparable moral weight is a false dichotomy. It’s not stealing food to feed starving children — it’s heaving more weight above head than the next guy or gal.
[/quote]
I get what you’re saying, but you’ve misunderstood the progenitor’s intended meaning.
In the United States anabolic steroids are illegal to purchase without a prescription, and on the news you constantly hear horror stories about teenage boys and WWE wrestlers who abused them and either murdered somebody, offed themselves, or both (though not necessarily in that order lol jk). Thus, the general consensus here is that they are awful drugs and anyone who takes them to improve at sport must too be awful (unbeknownst to most in this country, however, is that steroidal drugs are actually relatively common, but that’s another story). The point is that taking these drugs is viewed as “morally” wrong, stemming from the fact that they have been made illegal. A religious person would probably see no difference between me injecting heroine to get high or injecting test to get yoked because they are living in a culture where both drugs are demonized by the media and both are viewed in essentially the same manner by the law, thus to take either is inherently “wrong.”
This attitude does not exist in other countries. For instance, I believe in China, anabolic steroids are not illegal. This would make them easily accessible to the lay person and athlete alike. The athlete is still supposed to abide by the rules of sport, however, because the drugs are readily available to all the idea that to take them is inherently wrong is not nearly as prevalent. Thus, the athlete who is willing to do whatever it takes to win, even if that means bending the rules of sport, is not faced with the same cultural moral dilemma of believing that there is some inherent evil to these drugs.
By labeling the drugs as “bad,” it becomes a dilemma of morals. To clarify, every athlete must contend with the moral dilemma of the drugs being against the rules of the sport and by taking them gaining an unfair advantage, tarnishing the purity of the game, blah blah, basically everything Alexus has said up to this point. However, only some must contend with the moral dilemma of the drugs being against the rules of their culture, and in turn the severity of the lambasting they will receive at home if they are caught.
there are things that are illegal that are not immoral. e.g. it is legally wrong to drive on the wrong side of the road - but i don’t think anybody would say it was a moral issue.
i thought that cheating was an issue of morality, though.
i’m probably thinking that because one of the ways we introduce the issue of morality to undergraduates is with the ‘ring of gyges’ which raises the following question:
is it morally acceptable to cheat if you can get away with it?
there is a dialogue… most people (we might want to say that people with a sense of morality / a moral sense) think (by the end of the dialogue) that it is not okay to cheat even if you can get away with it.
but maybe people here are different…
i guess the way out (that people are going for) is to simply cast drug taking as not being cheating because everyone is doing it (so nobody is being cheated).
maybe that works.
if true.
maybe.
i do get that…
but i don’t believe it.
[quote]alexus wrote:
yarni - i hope you are young.
[/quote]
Yes, I am thanks. I’m 30 (for 2 more months).
[quote]alexus wrote:
‘people have always done x therefore x is morally acceptable’ don’t work. it is an ‘appeal to history’ and it is important that just because something may have been done in the past doesn’t make it morally acceptable.
e.g., rape is a big part of human history. you think it is inevitable (therefore acceptable?) as well? how about racism? think we should accept that as inevitable, too? genocide? do i really need to go on??? [/quote]
Firstly, you are creating my argument and then attacking it! I never mentioned morals! But you are going even further and creating multiple strawman arguments from ‘my’ original argument to really drive your point home! Astounding. To simplify:
I never said cheating was a moral act, not once, never: your words not mine.
However even if I had (which I didn’t), your following points would still be invalid (and just plain idiotic) because my thinking that cheating is moral would not logically require my thinking rape, racism, etc, etc is moral too! Would it??! Baaaaaaahhhhhhh!!!
[quote]alexus wrote: one of the ways we introduce the issue of morality to undergraduates is
[/quote]
You lecture Philosophy :'0
Good gravy
you:
cheating and corruption has been going on since ancient times. It is clearly a part of our DNA in all areas of life. To fold your arms and sulk about it just seems completely pointless to me.
do you feel similarly about other things that have been going on ‘since ancient times’?
things like genocide and rape?
at this point i’m not intending to attribute the straw man ‘oh yeah, i think rape is okay since it has been going on since ancient times’ view to you. i am intending you to back down on your view that it is pointless to get upset about things that have been done since ancient times since presumably you, too, get upset about some of the things that have been done since ancient times…
here is a question for you:
is it morally acceptable to cheat if one can get away with it?
this is a question that Plato asks us… it is how he introduces the issue of morality - he ties it in with getting away with the consequence of cheating. the idea here seems to be that cheating others is something that people feel is wrong insofar as they have a sense of morality at all. of course some people lack a moral sense. we have a name for them…
is the idea that one isn’t really cheating if everyone is doing it? then the idea is simply that everyone is doing it. do people really believe that? that there isn’t anybody who doesn’t use illegal drugs in international level weightlifting. for reals?
i wonder if pat feels bad that maybe he beat some people…
because he was using and they weren’t.
would you feel bad?
you think that is alright?
i guess i’m mostly pissy because i gave up philosophy to do sport / exercise science…
and sometimes i feel ambivalent about that.
i’m not sure it was the right decision for me to have made. and i’m not entirely sure… but it is possible that as time goes on i’m burning bridges…
and i feel worried sick at times, actually, yeah.
and issues around steroid use in sports is something that gets me wound up, yeah.
i mean some of the most immoral people i’ve met have been moral philosophers… amoral, too… it isn’t about that. not quite sure what it is, actually.
disillusionment?
perhaps.
i bet the nazi’s said something like ‘but everyone is doing it so it must be okay’. when it came to shooting jews and stuff like that.
.
“i bet the nazi’s said something like ‘but everyone is doing it so it must be okay’. when it came to shooting jews and stuff like that.”
Godwin’s law fulfilled. Thread over.
ROFL
alexus you have killed this discussion.
Good God.
I am honestly appalled that someone with such a crude, backwards, childish and hamfisted grasp on morals can be a college professor.
Then again, it IS New Zealand.
Ape288,
Thanks for your response. Specifically, I thank you for your civility and clarity. You made a strong point.
I hadn’t thought of legality and morality in the same context. I had to examine and re-examine both what the “progenitor” said and what I said. After re-thinking it: I believe the argument that the competitors experience enormous pressure to excel. I also believe that some competitors may be tempted to engage in behavior that their culture disapproves of. Where I am not wholly convinced, though, is in the argument that ‘legality’ and ‘morality’ are co-dependent. I see the two ideas as being separate and independent but often in accord with each other. In short, not all crimes involve moral turpitude. (Moral turpitude - Wikipedia). And here, in the context of sporting competition, ‘use’ isn’t base, vile, or depraved.
The only way I can see a moral dilemma is in the argument that: ‘Use’ is not wrong because of cultural norms; rather, ‘use’ is wrong because ‘use’ is fraud per se.
The moral issue, for me, changes with this question because there is an element of intentional deception. I think this follows what occurs in sports scandals where a competitor whom used often faces more severe sanction for lying about use than for the actual use.
This thread → oh my!
You guys keep talking about international competition but if I understand correctly the positive result was prior to US Nationals. No one can tell me with a straight face that everyone in the US Nationals are on drugs. This is why there is a controversy, IMO.
Hey DebraD,
Not everyone uses at a national level, but everyone who matters does. Getting popped all depends on “who you know” and what team you come from.
Let’s see, when I was at the USOTC one well known lifter was popped for having high T, so were three other guys. Some of these athletes were banned yetthe first was allowed to re-test because his daddy was a coach with some political pull. In all likelihood this lifter will take Mendes’s place on the team.
Another lifter almost had the weightlifting program kicked out of the OTC because he threw some cocaine parties. They didn’t catch him with a drug test, they caught him when someone walked in and he was doing blow off a toilet seat. Still, he was only sent home, not suspended from the sport. He and his sister had some pull, apparently.
Then there’s another Jr. World Team guy who failed an out of competition test and it was covered up. This guy was 17 and had full male pattern baldness. He also broke the superheavy US record in the clean and jerk.
There’s always talk up and down the grapevine, but I’ve personally seen it. Hell, I was working the fax machine when Apollo Ono and his teammates conspired to force another skater off the track at the Olympic Trials. You never heard about THAT either but things like this happen all the time. You only hear about the scapegoats.
USAW has it’s favorites, and if you fall into their little club you can get away with whatever you need to win. I think Mendes is the victim is a witch hunt. He was the most talented lifter we had, but his daddy wasn’t a coach.