that if you don’t cheat others then you may as well just curl up and accept defeat?
that if you don’ cheat others then you don’t really want to succeed?
that if you don’t cheat others then …
what?
trying to understand…
[quote]alexus wrote:
the US does okay in other sports doesn’t it?
how does this happen given the whole ‘everyone is cheating except us’ mindset?
oh, it only seems to be called on as a reason when the USA don’t do so well…[/quote]
Yes, the US does ok in certain other sports, many of which will not show the same improvement of placings due to PED doping ie. gymnastics and swimming.
Look at the events which utilise explosive power and strength and the US comes up quite short in terms of the medal haul.
2008 olympics
1 medal in womens discus
1 medal in mens shot put
0 in hammer - men or women
0 in javelin - men or women
0 in weightlifting - men or women
Nor were there great results in the freestyle or roman-greco wrestling. It could tell a story…
[quote]alexus wrote:
is the idea that the only way you can ever make something of yourself is to cheat?
that the only people who get anywhere in life are cheaters?
that it is totally morally acceptable to lie and to cheat?
please… educate me…[/quote]
The question isn’t ‘is it ok to use peds?’ but whether it is fair to the US lifters that they are tested more frequently for said substances than other countries. The answer is of course no, it is not fair. It puts the US lifters at a disadvantage.
The whole ‘drugs are bad mkay’ routine has been done to death. It’s not relevant here whether they are morally ok or not.
[quote]alexus wrote:
is the idea that the only way you can ever make something of yourself is to cheat?
[/quote]
In weightlifting, pretty much. This sport is one of the most reliant on brute physical strength which Steroids, HGH or whatever else can give. If you are not taking it during training you are falling behind at the world level.
[quote]yarni wrote:
The whole ‘drugs are bad mkay’ routine has been done to death.
[/quote]
i’m not taking the ‘drugs are bad mkay’ routine. i’m taking the ‘cheating is bad mkay’ routine. if you want to compete in untested powerlifting or bodybuilding competitions i won’t have a moral problem with ya. if you take PED’s and compete in a tested federation then that is another matter, however.
if you want to set up your own sport of untested olympic weightlifting then be my guest. if you want to compete in the sport then you need to play by the rules, however. campaign for changes in the rules (e.g., more stringent drug testing across the board) or whatever. if you aren’t prepared to play by the rules then you really shouldn’t play, though…
[quote]americaninsweden wrote:
This sport is one of the most reliant on brute physical strength… [/quote]
ah… that idea again…
i see.
i thought cycling was notorious for steroids. more notorious than weightlifting, even…
[quote]Weighty1 wrote:
Yes, the US does ok in certain other sports, many of which will not show the same improvement of placings due to PED doping ie. gymnastics and swimming…
/quote]
that isn’t what you need to make your case.
what you need to make your case is evidence that the us is NOT competitive in a sport (any sport actually) where there is significant improvement to be had by doping.
(for the purposes of this discussion we are totally leaving aside the considerable pharma industry that there is in the US which should be placed pretty much top of the world re: latest (untestable and / or currently unregulated) performance enhancing substances)
K, I’ve got a final exam in 5 hours, but this thread is really grinding at me at the moment so I’m going to try to make this quick.
The US is successful in a number of sports at the Olympic level because there is an incredible development system in place for those sports. If you look at sports they have success in (track and field, swimming, gymnastics) these sports are all pretty big at the collegiate/university level. Wrestling is an exception here (it’s huge in college/university, but that hasn’t translated to great international success, though there’s reasons for that I won’t get into here).
There’s kids on the track, in the pool, and tumbling around on the floor from the time they’re 5-6 years old, and that filters up into prominent athletes at the high school and collegiate/university level where they are groomed for Olympic success.
THERE IS NONE OF THIS FOR WEIGHTLIFTING. Everyone can talk til they’re blue in the face about how it’s so unfair that other countries get to dope and we don’t but until the sport of weightlifting starts to grow in North America it won’t make one whit of difference. Case in point, take a look at the results from the 2012 US University Nationals for weightlifting that wrapped up last weekend.
Some good numbers were put up, but the level of competition is not as high and the field is not as deep as it needs to be. Also 2 Canadians medalled there (77 gold and 105 silver), not that that really means anything. Just. Go Canada. Yeah.
Christ, this is getting long. Ok. I think looking at PEDs as the be-all end-all of Olympic success is the wrong way to look at it. With the way PEDs are demonized in North America that’ll be an ugly, long battle. Instead we need to look at everything else that’s holding us back, and try to improve in those areas first (funding, exposure, coaching, accessibility, etc etc etc).
Maybe when the sport’s done some serious growing on the domestic front and the field of competition has expanded by a few orders of magnitude we’ll start seeing those lifters capable of international medals start rising to the top.
Or maybe once there’s more money in it people will just start using the designer steroids that you can’t test for. Either way, I need to cut this off and get back to studying.
[quote]bcingu wrote:
I, for one, think our top lifters should do whatever it takes to win medals on an international stage.[/quote]
To win a medal on an international stage requires not getting caught. Considering what’s out nowadays getting caught using HGH is the equivalent of telling everyone your trying to cheat. Rules are constantly being made, and people are constantly getting around them. If your going to be elite, then you need to be elite in everything you do that includes steriods if your going to use them.
I think this article poses an intriguing perspective: Olympische Spiele: Der Dealer Olympias - DER SPIEGEL
Just translate from google.
There is a segment of the weightlifting community who thinks that if our guys could dope, we would be better. Well, a couple of our best guys just got popped for PED’s and we still don’t have a single male Olympian. By the way, when Henriques wrote the article on Broz I told him the program should come with a free gram of test. Hate to say I told you so…
[quote]alexus wrote:
the US does okay in other sports doesn’t it?
how does this happen given the whole ‘everyone is cheating except us’ mindset?
oh, it only seems to be called on as a reason when the USA don’t do so well…
I can’t help but feel that in this post you are suggesting that use of peds ISN’T widespread.
I didn’t say or imply anything about that.
Does it matter if it is?
I’m trying to think of how that argument might go…
Is the idea that the USA has been denied medals in weightlifting for so long (never mind other sports where the USA cleans up the medals) … Because every single weightlifting athlete who beats an american is / has cheated the drug rules? Or is the idea that enough of them have… Such that it is okay for the USA to break the drug rules. Because, you know, everyone is doing it. Or some people are doing it. Or something like that…
Not sure I see how this is a mature line of reasoning…
Does it really seem plausible / persuasive to you?
A[/quote]
I think most of the posters in this thread agree that the USA’s poor performance in weightlifting is NOT solely due to PED’s, but that their inordinately stringent testing is one unfair disadvantage, so let’s leave that strawman alone for now.
In what sports does the USA “clean up the medals”? How do these sports compare to weightlifting in terms of how performance would be affected by doping?
Yes, the argument is that (just about) everyone (who places at the very top) is doing it, therefore if you desire to be competitive at that level, it must be considered. I think you would have to be somewhat naive about the sport to be surprised by this.
[quote]debraD wrote:
[quote]bcingu wrote:
[quote]Swolegasm wrote:
[quote]gonepostal wrote:
[quote]bcingu wrote:
Shitty situation. They’re both great lifters, and I hope they don’t leave the sport permanently. I also hope that the US weightlifting community can learn how to show a little more compassion and a little less schadenfreude.[/quote]
lul wut?
Seriously? Compassion on what level? They didn’t die, they made a choice and now they’re paying the piper. [/quote]
Well you guys test your weightlifters rigidly but you have NFL and baseball doping and i don’t believe they are tested this much.
Plus top level weightlifters are admired but when one of your own gets caught their condemned. [/quote]
^This. It is a lose/lose situation for our lifters. They get ridiculed if they are unable to compete at an international level, and demonized if they get busted for doping. I am referring to dialogues that have appeared on other forums, in which anonymous posters seem to take an inordinate amount of pleasure in the misfortunes of others. I, for one, think our top lifters should do whatever it takes to win medals on an international stage.[/quote]
Then you are saying you want them to cheat. Why even bother competing? Why not just do exhibition crap? It’s not like you can make a decent living weightlifting. It’s all about the love of the sport.
[/quote]
‘All about love of the sport’? ‘Then why compete’?
Do you have the SLIGHTEST idea of reality? Not a single lifter in international competitions is NOT doped out of his mind. It’s just a matter of getting caught or not.
Strength sports as we know them today, and the numbers we see today, are just absolutely impossible without drugs.
[quote]general_lfl wrote:
Well, a couple of our best guys just got popped for PED’s and we still don’t have a single male Olympian.[/quote]
The fuck is this supposed to mean?
[quote]alexus wrote:
i think the attitude that you need to use banned substances (cheat, in other words) in order to be competitive is totally shit.[/quote]
You need drugs to even get a shot at getting the shiny medal.
Whether your childish view on morals will allow it as a true victory or not, is your own concern.
[quote]alexus wrote:
if you want to compete in the sport then you need to play by the rules, however. campaign for changes in the rules (e.g., more stringent drug testing across the board) or whatever. if you aren’t prepared to play by the rules then you really shouldn’t play, though…
[/quote]
These ARE the rules. There are plenty of unwritten rules which a layman preaching his simpleton morals can’t grasp.
Doping and avoiding tests is part of the game. As much part of the game as the sport itself.
We have heard this straight out of the mouth of top lifters themselves, who claimed that after a layoff they couldn’t be the slightest bit competitive because they were restricted in their drug use.
If you want to argue it’s a sad state of affairs, sure. But don’t single out the scapegoat that got caught and ridicule them for not having ‘love for the sport’.
[quote]TheJonty wrote:
K, I’ve got a final exam in 5 hours, but this thread is really grinding at me at the moment so I’m going to try to make this quick.
The US is successful in a number of sports at the Olympic level because there is an incredible development system in place for those sports. If you look at sports they have success in (track and field, swimming, gymnastics) these sports are all pretty big at the collegiate/university level. Wrestling is an exception here (it’s huge in college/university, but that hasn’t translated to great international success, though there’s reasons for that I won’t get into here).
There’s kids on the track, in the pool, and tumbling around on the floor from the time they’re 5-6 years old, and that filters up into prominent athletes at the high school and collegiate/university level where they are groomed for Olympic success.
THERE IS NONE OF THIS FOR WEIGHTLIFTING. Everyone can talk til they’re blue in the face about how it’s so unfair that other countries get to dope and we don’t but until the sport of weightlifting starts to grow in North America it won’t make one whit of difference. Case in point, take a look at the results from the 2012 US University Nationals for weightlifting that wrapped up last weekend.
Some good numbers were put up, but the level of competition is not as high and the field is not as deep as it needs to be. Also 2 Canadians medalled there (77 gold and 105 silver), not that that really means anything. Just. Go Canada. Yeah.
Christ, this is getting long. Ok. I think looking at PEDs as the be-all end-all of Olympic success is the wrong way to look at it. With the way PEDs are demonized in North America that’ll be an ugly, long battle. Instead we need to look at everything else that’s holding us back, and try to improve in those areas first (funding, exposure, coaching, accessibility, etc etc etc).
Maybe when the sport’s done some serious growing on the domestic front and the field of competition has expanded by a few orders of magnitude we’ll start seeing those lifters capable of international medals start rising to the top.
Or maybe once there’s more money in it people will just start using the designer steroids that you can’t test for. Either way, I need to cut this off and get back to studying.[/quote]
there is a lot of truth in this post, but I would also say that the USA’s attitude toward PEDs is part of the equation as well.
anybody who thinks otherwise is just naive and uninformed. I apoplogize in advance if that offends anybody here, it is not my intent, but it is the truth.
[quote]GqArtguy wrote:
I think this article poses an intriguing perspective: Olympische Spiele: Der Dealer Olympias - DER SPIEGEL
Just translate from google.
[/quote]
nice find, thanks.
my God there’s a lot of stupid in this thread.
^^^
elaborate.