Mendes/Gilbert Test Positive

Training Powerlifting
21

[quote]debraD wrote:
I realize that but I disagree. You can’t say that ALL world class athletes are doping to some extent because that is just plain false.

But again there is the rest of the sport, the national meets, the regionals, the state meets…all the meets that are open to all competitors. Drugs in the sport will make those pointless. If Canada went that way I wouldn’t bother competing. You need 12 year olds with coaches and broomsticks to get champions and that also won’t happen if the sport becomes ok with doping.

Now for a sport that doesn’t make anyone any money, what the hell is the point in killing it just for a couple of guys?

[/quote]

lets not argue semantics deb. nothing is ever ALWAYS or NEVER.

Jonty responded better than I can, I will concur that PEDs are just an accepted and NECESSARY part of high level international sports competition.

i briefly trained with some olympic/world class throwers from Iceland, and they talked about it openly, and did not understand what the big deal was regarding drug use here.

they called it “medicine” and it was funny, when I asked them some advice, one of the first things they asked me was what was I using and how much.

it is interesting that Glenn Pendaly said pretty much the same thing when he talks about his discussions/interactions with lifters and coaches from other countries.

22

oh, and correct me if I am wrong, but China and Russia do NO testing at their national meets, no?

if that is true, that should tell you a lot.

23

[quote]heavythrower wrote:
oh, and correct me if I am wrong, but China and Russia do NO testing at their national meets, no?

if that is true, that should tell you a lot.[/quote]

I’m fairly certain Chinese nationals are untested, not so sure about the Russians. I do remember Koklyaev making some comments when he was attempting his comeback to o-lifting about finding it more difficult without taking steroids, but I’m not sure if that means he was getting tested at those competitions.

24

[quote]TheJonty wrote:
Playing a little bit of devil’s advocate here . . .

[quote]debraD wrote:
I realize that but I disagree. You can’t say that ALL world class athletes are doping to some extent because that is just plain false.[/quote]

It’s an assertion that can’t be proven or disproven. The only way to definitively know if someone is doping or not is if they piss hot. Then we know they doped. Besides that, we just can’t know whether or not everybody’s actually clean. And everything I’ve read online or heard in person (both currently as a weightlifter and formerly as a wrestler) indicates that the vast majority of internationally competitive athletes are on something. Everybody’s looking for that edge because everybody wants to win. [/quote]

I think you’re probably right about the majority. But I don’t think it’s all of them.

Because the playing field gets all messed up when you’re in countries like the US in Canada where many people disapprove of drugs and say it’s cheating and many people say it’s just part of the sport. You will take that same dilemma of not having a level playing field from the international competitions and bring into the national levels.

Unless you are willing to say drugs are allowed…

I say that because if I had a son or daughter who wanted to be a weightlifter and I knew it was a sport that was known for giving it’s women beards I would say no fucking way. It’s hard enough to get parents to let their kids lift weights because they think squats will kill them. It will be impossible if parents (crossfit moms) think they’re going to get into drugs.

I don’t think the acceptance of drug use as a necessary tool to be the best in the world has to kill the sport of weightlifting in North America. Unfortunately, as Glenn Pendlay said (thanks for finding that quote HT), PEDs are demonized viciously in North America. That mindset (which I think shows through to some extent in your opinions here) would have to change before drug use could be accepted at any level. [/quote]

I don’t think I’m vilifying the drugs as much as being realistic as to what Americans and Canadians will accept. I think it’s easy to get used to the idea after watching the worlds and knowing that the women have five o’clock shadows but we still love to watch. But if you start talking to people who aren’t familiar, you know the kind of people who might decide whether their school would support an extra-curricular weightlifting club or even send their own kid, you will see that the idea of drug use is abhorrent to them(no surprise).

It is a fact that PEDs are demonized here but that isn’t going to change anytime soon.

[quote]
I’m trying to stay objective here and not put a moral spin on what I’m saying. To be honest I’m not sure which side of the fence I fall on. But I don’t think the realization that one has to take drugs to be competitive at the highest echelons of the sport necessarily has to kill the sport at all levels. It’s a choice that every serious athlete already makes at some point in their career. You have to decide how bad you want to be on that podium and what you’re willing to risk to win. For better or for worse, it seems that in North America athletes are risking a lot more when they choose to break the rules and use PEDs than athletes in other parts of the world.

Gonna kill this post before I write a full essay here.[/quote]

My concerns are selfish of course and want to be able to have lots of clubs and other weightlifters to work with and such so the international stuff is way out of my scope. However, the athletes who do work really hard and don’t break the rules really are getting shafted and that is a moral issue IMO, if for no other reason that it is against the stated rules.

It’s a dilemma for sure and I don’t want to come across as judgemental or a hater because I think there are a lot of great athletes who are also on PEDs but on the other hand it IS unfair to those who don’t do it because it’s against the rules and I don’t think the fair response to someone getting caught (here in North America) is to complain we test too much because there is no choice-we do have that culture that Glenn refers to.

edit: damn quotes

25

[quote]bcingu wrote:

[quote]debraD wrote:
I realize that but I disagree. You can’t say that ALL world class athletes are doping to some extent because that is just plain false.

But again there is the rest of the sport, the national meets, the regionals, the state meets…all the meets that are open to all competitors. Drugs in the sport will make those pointless. If Canada went that way I wouldn’t bother competing. You need 12 year olds with coaches and broomsticks to get champions and that also won’t happen if the sport becomes ok with doping.

Now for a sport that doesn’t make anyone any money, what the hell is the point in killing it just for a couple of guys?
[/quote]

Eh, I can’t claim to care nearly as much about local and regional meets. Though I admit to being disenchanted with USAW and competing personally.

It does strike me as being considerably more unjust to have someone doping and competing at these levels, though I think you are being way too dramatic when you describe it as KILLING the sport.[/quote]

I don’t think I’m being dramatic. However I should state it would kill it here. Like has been said, US and Canada culturally will not accept it.

And talking about it here it barely survives as a sport.

26

[quote]TheJonty wrote:

I’m fairly certain Chinese nationals are untested, not so sure about the Russians. I do remember Koklyaev making some comments when he was attempting his comeback to o-lifting about finding it more difficult without taking steroids, but I’m not sure if that means he was getting tested at those competitions.[/quote]

that IS interesting.

27

[quote]bcingu wrote:

Furthermore, arguing about steroids on a weightlifting forum is pretty clichÃ?©. Let’s go back to talking about sexy weightlifters or shoes or something…[/quote]

I usually don’t make comments on the drug discussions but there is a lot of complaining today about this as a fault of the US testing policies and I just don’t think the US has a choice but to test like they do.

28

[quote]debraD wrote:

[quote]bcingu wrote:

Furthermore, arguing about steroids on a weightlifting forum is pretty clichÃ??Ã?©. Let’s go back to talking about sexy weightlifters or shoes or something…[/quote]

I usually don’t make comments on the drug discussions but there is a lot of complaining today about this as a fault of the US testing policies and I just don’t think the US has a choice but to test like they do.[/quote]

no arguement there deb. the USA has become an ever increasingly paternalistic nanny state, which tries to control and regulate almost every aspect of our lives, and I do not see it getting better in my lifetime.

I heard a quote from Jesse Ventura, former navy seal, pro wrestler and governor of Minnesota,

he stated that he has moved to Mexico, where he is “treated like and adult” haha.

29

Pshh, you don’t even know the meaning of clichÃ?©…

30

[quote]heavythrower wrote:

[quote]debraD wrote:

[quote]bcingu wrote:

Furthermore, arguing about steroids on a weightlifting forum is pretty clichÃ???Ã??Ã?©. Let’s go back to talking about sexy weightlifters or shoes or something…[/quote]

I usually don’t make comments on the drug discussions but there is a lot of complaining today about this as a fault of the US testing policies and I just don’t think the US has a choice but to test like they do.[/quote]

no arguement there deb. the USA has become an ever increasingly paternalistic nanny state, which tries to control and regulate almost every aspect of our lives, and I do not see it getting better in my lifetime.

I heard a quote from Jesse Ventura, former navy seal, pro wrestler and governor of Minnesota,

he stated that he has moved to Mexico, where he is “treated like and adult” haha.

[/quote]

I guess that’s life eh. There are many disadvantages to being born Russian or Chinese too :wink: I’d even go so far as to say as there is no such thing as a level playing field anyhow, even if you take drugs out of the equation.

31

Damn you guys I was going to go do some jerks now it’s getting late >:(

32

[quote]debraD wrote:
I think you’re probably right about the majority. But I don’t think it’s all of them.
[/quote]

I accept the possibility of a genetic freak with unusual (for an international athlete) moral values as regards the rules.

[quote]debraD wrote:
Because the playing field gets all messed up when you’re in countries like the US in Canada where many people disapprove of drugs and say it’s cheating and many people say it’s just part of the sport. You will take that same dilemma of not having a level playing field from the international competitions and bring into the national levels.

Unless you are willing to say drugs are allowed…[/quote]

If drugs do become more accepted (and that’s one giant if) the trickle down effect would probably increase the use of drugs among lower level lifters, yes. Hadn’t considered that. Though to be honest, I think believing it’s possible to have a level playing field at all is a bit naive as well. All you can do is afford everyone the same opportunities, there will always be those who have to overcome greater obstacles to achieve success.

[quote]debraD wrote:
I say that because if I had a son or daughter who wanted to be a weightlifter and I knew it was a sport that was known for giving it’s women beards I would say no fucking way. It’s hard enough to get parents to let their kids lift weights because they think squats will kill them. It will be impossible if parents (crossfit moms) think they’re going to get into drugs. [/quote]

With the current portrayal of PEDs in North America the way it is, this is probably true. I don’t think it has to be that way, but for it to change would require a major shift in public opinion that I don’t see happening anytime soon.

[quote]debraD wrote:
I don’t think I’m vilifying the drugs as much as being realistic as to what Americans and Canadians will accept. I think it’s easy to get used to the idea after watching the worlds and knowing that the women have five o’clock shadows but we still love to watch. But if you start talking to people who aren’t familiar, you know the kind of people who might decide whether their school would support an extra-curricular weightlifting club or even send their own kid, you will see that the idea of drug use is abhorrent to them(no surprise).

It is a fact that PEDs are demonized here but that isn’t going to change anytime soon. [/quote]

Sometimes it’s easy to forget how the average person would view these things. And this all ties back to the perception of PEDs in North America, which I don’t think has to be the way it is but isn’t likely to change anytime soon.

[quote]debraD wrote:
My concerns are selfish of course and want to be able to have lots of clubs and other weightlifters to work with and such so the international stuff is way out of my scope. However, the athletes who do work really hard and don’t break the rules really are getting shafted and that is a moral issue IMO, if for no other reason that it is against the stated rules.

It’s a dilemma for sure and I don’t want to come across as judgemental or a hater because I think there are a lot of great athletes who are also on PEDs but on the other hand it IS unfair to those who don’t do it because it’s against the rules and I don’t think the fair response to someone getting caught (here in North America) is to complain we test too much because there is no choice-we do have that culture that Glenn refers to.[/quote]

There’s a lot of things that factor into an athlete’s performance that could be viewed as being unfair. Like I mentioned above, I think the notion of a level playing field is a bit of a pipe dream. Though I agree with you on being selfish and wanting more clubs and training partners and whatnot. I think pushing the drug issue to the back burner and focusing on getting more exposure for the sport to the youth and getting some good coaches out there will have excellent long-term effects, and doesn’t come with the insane level of difficulty an ideological shift regarding PEDs does.

[quote]debraD wrote:
edit: damn quotes[/quote]

SO much easier to read after the edit, haha.

Also, I’m starting to repeat myself. I think I need food.

33

[quote]heavythrower wrote:

[quote]TheJonty wrote:

I’m fairly certain Chinese nationals are untested, not so sure about the Russians. I do remember Koklyaev making some comments when he was attempting his comeback to o-lifting about finding it more difficult without taking steroids, but I’m not sure if that means he was getting tested at those competitions.[/quote]

that IS interesting. [/quote]

Thinking some more, even if they do test at Russian nationals, it’s probably less stringent than at, say, worlds or the Olympics (where I think athletes get tested a number of weeks out from the competition as well as during and after and whatnot). I do think the numbers at Russian nationals tend to be a little higher, but nothing like the Chinese nationals.

34

This is just another example of how America is continuing to limit its place as top dog in the world through flagellation.

Environmental/business/geopolitical regulations, manifested from a self-hating guilt combined with circle-jerking pseudoscience, continues the decline of our once-great country.

Rising nations, namely China, do not recognize any treaties which stymie their growth and dominance in the world. I guess for America, and the rest of the West, it’s the old adage of “too much success leads to (self-inflicted) collapse.”

The Pussification of America continues…

Sorry to hear that John and his athletes have gotten another roadblock in their path to glory. John has the right technique and philosophy on making champions. If he were given the leeway and funding coaches everywhere else around the world had, no doubt he’d produce champions.

35

i think the attitude that you need to use banned substances (cheat, in other words) in order to be competitive is totally shit.

because you can’t legitimately win if you cheat. sure you might be given a medal but that is only because people didn’t know you cheated. if they knew then it would be taken away.

i think it is a big fucking crock of an excuse ‘we can’t be competitive in weightlifting because everyone else is getting away with cheating but we can’t’. what the fuck do people think happens for other competitive olympic sports?

i also think the ‘everyone is doing it aside from us’ is kinda adolescent… how does the saying go ‘yes, dear, and if everyone was jumping off a bridge you would, too’?

grow up usa.

36

so that was why pat didn’t compete much at the national level, then? so he wouldn’t come up for testing?

37

didn’t broz or someone pop up here when people suggested illegal substances might be the reason for that before??

what was said??

anyone remember this??

38

[quote]alexus wrote:
i think the attitude that you need to use banned substances (cheat, in other words) in order to be competitive is totally shit.

because you can’t legitimately win if you cheat. sure you might be given a medal but that is only because people didn’t know you cheated. if they knew then it would be taken away.

i think it is a big fucking crock of an excuse ‘we can’t be competitive in weightlifting because everyone else is getting away with cheating but we can’t’. what the fuck do people think happens for other competitive olympic sports?

i also think the ‘everyone is doing it aside from us’ is kinda adolescent… how does the saying go ‘yes, dear, and if everyone was jumping off a bridge you would, too’?

grow up usa.[/quote]

I can’t help but feel that in this post you are suggesting that use of peds ISN’T widespread.
Either that or you’re suggesting that (given 2 very similar athletes) it is possible for the one not using peds to beat the one who is. HUGE progress can be made without peds, but it takes time. Lots of time and meticulous training and planning. Drugs speed up the process (time-wise: more training, better recovery). They give a clear advantage.

Or you are just saying the USA should ‘grow up’ and accept last place everytime while all the other big baddies ‘cheat’.

You are saying that in a highly competitive sport, in a choice which will probably determine success or failure, they should choose the morally correct option and accept defeat.

I DON’T condone the use of drugs, but reality is reality, and perhaps you should be more careful when telling others’ grow up’.

39

the US does okay in other sports doesn’t it?

how does this happen given the whole ‘everyone is cheating except us’ mindset?
oh, it only seems to be called on as a reason when the USA don’t do so well…

I can’t help but feel that in this post you are suggesting that use of peds ISN’T widespread.

I didn’t say or imply anything about that.

Does it matter if it is?

I’m trying to think of how that argument might go…

Is the idea that the USA has been denied medals in weightlifting for so long (never mind other sports where the USA cleans up the medals) … Because every single weightlifting athlete who beats an american is / has cheated the drug rules? Or is the idea that enough of them have… Such that it is okay for the USA to break the drug rules. Because, you know, everyone is doing it. Or some people are doing it. Or something like that…

Not sure I see how this is a mature line of reasoning…

Does it really seem plausible / persuasive to you?

A

40

is the idea that the only way you can ever make something of yourself is to cheat?

that the only people who get anywhere in life are cheaters?

that it is totally morally acceptable to lie and to cheat?

please… educate me…