Measuring Success

Bigger Stronger Leaner Competitive Bodybuilding
21

[quote]Akuma01 wrote:
But it gives a good BEGINNERS step towards the right direction, seeing where you’re going. When i ask someone their immediate goal, and they simply say “Get bigger,” i question them. That is some vague nonsense.[/quote]

Why? A beginner’s IMMEDIATE goal SHOULD be to ‘get bigger all over’. I would question if they really understood the work ahead of them if they said “My immediate goal is to build calves that are in a ratio of 1:1.2 to my arms and 1:1.125 to my neck while maintaining no more than a 2:1 ratio of waist to biceps. In two years I want my quads to be 3x the length of my tibia - the square root of my arms x calves divided my size of nose…”

Really, having bopped around these forums for just a few years now it’s pretty clear to me that if quite a few more ‘beginners’ (and even some that have been at it for several years) had the simple goal of “get bigger” and lifted heavier, ate more and did both consistently, we’d have a much bigger and stronger population of posters.

My own immediate goals? Get bigger. My arms are ALWAYS too small, but I’m not going to stop training legs to let them catch up just for some asthetic ‘ideal’. I’m always going to do a little more for arms because they’re ALWAYS going to be too small.

I’m chasing a couple lifting numbers, and while that’s not the ‘pure bodybuilding’ aspect of it, I know that when I hit those numbers I will have gained the size to move that weight.

22

1600×1200 373 KB

My measurements were:
Head: 25
Neck: 19
Chest: 52
Waist: 48
Hips: 44
Thigh: 30
Knee: 18
Calf: 18.5
Ankle: 12
Wrist: 9
Forearm: 13
Upper Arm: 18.5
Shoulder: 21

body weight: 270 ht: 6’2
BF: no clue def not lean tho

Reeves Ideal Measurments:
Neck: 19.8"
Arms: 22.7"
Chest: 65.1"
Waist: 37.8"
Thighs: 31.5"
Calves: 23"
Ideal bodyweight: 220lbs

shitty bathroom mirror phone pic for reference

23

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

[quote]Akuma01 wrote:
But it gives a good BEGINNERS step towards the right direction, seeing where you’re going. When i ask someone their immediate goal, and they simply say “Get bigger,” i question them. That is some vague nonsense.[/quote]

Why? A beginner’s IMMEDIATE goal SHOULD be to ‘get bigger all over’. I would question if they really understood the work ahead of them if they said “My immediate goal is to build calves that are in a ratio of 1:1.2 to my arms and 1:1.125 to my neck while maintaining no more than a 2:1 ratio of waist to biceps. In two years I want my quads to be 3x the length of my tibia - the square root of my arms x calves divided my size of nose…”

Really, having bopped around these forums for just a few years now it’s pretty clear to me that if quite a few more ‘beginners’ (and even some that have been at it for several years) had the simple goal of “get bigger” and lifted heavier, ate more and did both consistently, we’d have a much bigger and stronger population of posters.

My own immediate goals? Get bigger. My arms are ALWAYS too small, but I’m not going to stop training legs to let them catch up just for some asthetic ‘ideal’. I’m always going to do a little more for arms because they’re ALWAYS going to be too small.

I’m chasing a couple lifting numbers, and while that’s not the ‘pure bodybuilding’ aspect of it, I know that when I hit those numbers I will have gained the size to move that weight.[/quote]

I think you’re missing the point. “Get bigger” is vague, because most beginners think getting bigger = Bigger Arms/Bench more. When you have the vantage point of seeing 6+ different areas that are measured, one may rethink how they approach things. Most beginners will look at those calculators and see that they arent close, or they severely lack in one area. Yea, they should be attempting to ‘Get bigger all over’ but atleast it can shed some more light on things.

For the more advanced members, ya ‘Get bigger’ can suffice as an answer. Why? Cuz most of them meet/surpass the calculated area already. Most of them have taken Ratios and proportions into account. They look in the mirror and see how growing one area would affect another.

24

[quote]Akuma01 wrote:

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

[quote]Akuma01 wrote:
But it gives a good BEGINNERS step towards the right direction, seeing where you’re going. When i ask someone their immediate goal, and they simply say “Get bigger,” i question them. That is some vague nonsense.[/quote]

Why? A beginner’s IMMEDIATE goal SHOULD be to ‘get bigger all over’. I would question if they really understood the work ahead of them if they said “My immediate goal is to build calves that are in a ratio of 1:1.2 to my arms and 1:1.125 to my neck while maintaining no more than a 2:1 ratio of waist to biceps. In two years I want my quads to be 3x the length of my tibia - the square root of my arms x calves divided my size of nose…”

Really, having bopped around these forums for just a few years now it’s pretty clear to me that if quite a few more ‘beginners’ (and even some that have been at it for several years) had the simple goal of “get bigger” and lifted heavier, ate more and did both consistently, we’d have a much bigger and stronger population of posters.

My own immediate goals? Get bigger. My arms are ALWAYS too small, but I’m not going to stop training legs to let them catch up just for some asthetic ‘ideal’. I’m always going to do a little more for arms because they’re ALWAYS going to be too small.

I’m chasing a couple lifting numbers, and while that’s not the ‘pure bodybuilding’ aspect of it, I know that when I hit those numbers I will have gained the size to move that weight.[/quote]

I think you’re missing the point. “Get bigger” is vague, because most beginners think getting bigger = Bigger Arms/Bench more. When you have the vantage point of seeing 6+ different areas that are measured, one may rethink how they approach things. Most beginners will look at those calculators and see that they arent close, or they severely lack in one area. Yea, they should be attempting to ‘Get bigger all over’ but atleast it can shed some more light on things.

For the more advanced members, ya ‘Get bigger’ can suffice as an answer. Why? Cuz most of them meet/surpass the calculated area already. Most of them have taken Ratios and proportions into account. They look in the mirror and see how growing one area would affect another.[/quote]

LOL… No I don’t think I’m missing the point. My perspective is that you have it exactly backwards.

A beginner’s goal should be general mass all over and advanced lifters (probably competitors) should be worried about proportions and adjustments (eg “bring up the hammies”) for judging as well as getting bigger (if they want to move up).

An advanced bodybuilder has already added mass and is perhaps going to compete because they’ve gained significant muscle. At this stage, they’re specifically looking for imbalances to correct. An ADVANCED bodybuilder needs to think about ratios and proportions. Beginners need mass period.

I think if you’re starting beginners off with thinking about detailed proportions instead of a few years of ‘shut up and lift’, you’re setting them up to be one of these ‘hamster-on-a-wheel’ lifters that are chasing phantom stats instead of just pushing to see if they can push their genetic potential a little and see how things respond. I think it takes a couple/few years of consistent lifting and consistent eating to really hash that out. You don’t start a beginner with the chisel.

Just differing perspectives I guess.

25

Definitely differing positions then. I feel if they dont realize they need to work these things out from the get go, they’ll be playing catchup for a long time.

26

My Measurements-
6’2"
275 lb
Chest- 50 inches
Waist- 41 inches
Upper Arms- 18.5 inches
Forearm- 15 inches
Thigh- 29 inches
Lower Leg- 17.25 inches (I’m workin’ on it! Weak point)
Neck- 18.5 inches (if I trained my neck it would easily be over 19.5")

27

After looking at the grecian ideal and the reeves ideal, I apparently need bigger arms, bigger chest, bigger neck, bigger calves, and a much smaller butt. ehh stupid squats…

28

[quote]Akuma01 wrote:
In bodybuilding, physiques can be classified as visually stunning. Generally, to meet this level of praise, aside from Complete and Utter MASS, there are also two other requirements that need to be met:being symmetrical and proportional - a state where there is an obvious balance between both sides of the body, having a practical Mirror image reflection of Right/Left, and where nothing looks out of place, a condition where everything seems to flow and taper into a harmonious whole.

It most cases, atleast at a pro level, It seems that today’s standards have required competitors to mainly aim for 2 aspects of this sport- Mass and conditioning. It’s my belief that many, especially at the early stages, lose sight of the actual importance, quite literally the foundation, of a perfect physique. If you have an AMAZING upper body, Biceps popping at the seems, a back that seemingly stretches an impossible figure, and a chest composed of figurative Barrels, But walk on stage with Thighs no larger than your average competitor’s Forearm, you WILL NEVER taste gold.

So, what is ideal proportions?

Some would argue that this depends on your wrist size, as suggests things like “The Grecian Ideal,” which is an ancient Greek ideal of how the male physique should look. According to this theory, to calculate a perfectly proportional body, we begin with a wrist size. Now, using myself as a test subject, we can show how this template works:
My Measurements-
Chest- 52 inches
Waist- 36-38 inches
Biceps- 20 inches
Forearm- 16 inches
Thigh- 29 inches
Calves- 19 inches
Neck- 19 inches

The Grecian Ideal calculator asks for my wrist size, which is 8 inches, and calculates my ideal physique with it:
Chest- 52 inches- check
Waist- 36 inches- Check
Bicep- 19 inches- Check+
Forearm- 15 inches- Check+
Thigh- 28 inches- Check+
Calves-18 inches- Negative
Neck- 19 inches- Check

I meet some, surpass others, and fall slightly short of others. In the eyes of the Grecian Ideal calculator, i am not quite proportional. Though i do not agree with the measurements provided as Ideal, i will agree with the fact that i am not Proportional enough.

There is also a Muscle to Bone ratio form of calculation, one that was apparently endorsed by Steve Reeves. Lets see how this differs from the first. Now, still using my measurements, as they are the only ones i have access to lol:

My Measurement\ What it should be according to the calculator

Wrist 8Inch \ 20inch arms- Check
Ankle 11inch \ 21inch calves- negative
Head 24inch \ 19inch neck- Check
Knee 17inch \ 30inch Thigh- Negative.

According to this form, i meet only half of the requirements.

These two different forms of proportional measurement slightly differ from each other. In my eyes neither are a fantastic template for measuring your own build. Why? Well, both fail to call into question shoulder width, or Leg to waist ratio. However, i will say that either of this does pose as a decent beginners stepping stone. Look at what your measurements “Should” be, and give yourself something to aim for. As a bodybuilder, your goal isn’t Numbers as in weight, but rather it’s Numbers as in inches: Size of this, proportion of this to that, etc.

I recommend picking up a mini tape measure, and starting to keep track. Dont believe your eyes when it comes to seeing results. I know this is especially difficult for myself in that i personally am never happy, and i visually create things, or exaggerate areas negatively. It creates a negative Black Hole that will only serve to drag you down deeper into a hole of Self loathing. So Snag a Tape measure, and start keeping track. Measure bodyparts every month or so. Ensure that you are continually growing, and if not, take a step back and look at your total program, Something can always be fixed. It truly helps to be able to compare measurements over months and see your progress. You must know where you’ve been to see where you’re going.

[/quote]
Hey 'kuma!
I am not trying to anything from you. You’ve done very well and I am not calling you fat or anything…
However, I think the calculator means those measurements are ideal when lean at ~8% BF. Although 19in arm is impressive at almost any bodyfat level, one would lose a couple inches or more in arms when going from ~20% to 8% (much more in chest and legs and stuff).
When comparing yourself to the “ideal” measurements, it meakes sense only when your BF level is also “ideal”(lean).

29

[quote]Akuma01 wrote:

[quote]EvanX wrote:
Although I do not agree with these measurements being ideal, would they not take into account BF%? Someone like Akuma may have surpassed some but, he is not exactly lean.[/quote]

I never said the measurements were ideal. As a matter of fact, i said they werent. But it gives a good BEGINNERS step towards the right direction, seeing where you’re going. When i ask someone their immediate goal, and they simply say “Get bigger,” i question them. That is some vague nonsense. Thats like asking for directions, and simply getting a Finger pointed in the direction of the place you want to go.

Secondly, to say that im “not exactly lean” is some ridiculously ignorant nonsense. No, im not single digit bf, but something like that can change in a matter of a month or two. 260lbs with an 18% bf = Still over 200lbs on stage, and thats if my cut diet is PERFECT. I hardly think that is something to scoff at.[/quote]

I never said you agreed with the measurements being ideal, I just stated I thought they were not. Secondly, as Steely stated I think a beginners goal should be to just get bigger all over. I never took measurements at 135lbs, I just ate my ass off and trained even harder, 1.5 yrs later I am 185lbs at a low BF.

What nonsense? You are not lean period. That was not a dig at your achievements it is a fact. Sure that can change in a month or two as you put it but, you will not stay at those measurements.

30

[quote]EvanX wrote:

[quote]Akuma01 wrote:

[quote]EvanX wrote:
Although I do not agree with these measurements being ideal, would they not take into account BF%? Someone like Akuma may have surpassed some but, he is not exactly lean.[/quote]

I never said the measurements were ideal. As a matter of fact, i said they werent. But it gives a good BEGINNERS step towards the right direction, seeing where you’re going. When i ask someone their immediate goal, and they simply say “Get bigger,” i question them. That is some vague nonsense. Thats like asking for directions, and simply getting a Finger pointed in the direction of the place you want to go.

Secondly, to say that im “not exactly lean” is some ridiculously ignorant nonsense. No, im not single digit bf, but something like that can change in a matter of a month or two. 260lbs with an 18% bf = Still over 200lbs on stage, and thats if my cut diet is PERFECT. I hardly think that is something to scoff at.[/quote]

I never said you agreed with the measurements being ideal, I just stated I thought they were not. Secondly, as Steely stated I think a beginners goal should be to just get bigger all over. I never took measurements at 135lbs, I just ate my ass off and trained even harder, 1.5 yrs later I am 185lbs at a low BF.

What nonsense? You are not lean period. That was not a dig at your achievements it is a fact. Sure that can change in a month or two as you put it but, you will not stay at those measurements.
[/quote]

Yeah I mean the measurements are defintely implying that you are pretty lean, but who cares about these ‘ideals’ anyways, I want to be a freak, but still posses those classic lines everyone find appealing.

Personally, I have stopped worrying about exact measurements as long as my body is growing in the right places on a bulk and losing in the right places on a cut. Measurements are all individual and do depend on bodyfat and muscle shape. 19 inch arms on some NPC competitors look fucking incredible, on your average gym rat a 19 inch arm is big, and nobody with an appreciable amount of muscle on them with 19 inch guns will look small…But, not all 19 inch arms are equal.

Good example is myself in my 18 inch arm thread, and over the course of the year, the tape measure has not moved too much, however, the difference between the quality of my 18+inch bi is much much improved since this time last year.

Anyways my mind is more or less set on making progress and keeping goals kind of broad, such as get as big as my body allows me to, so in a sense I am not limiting myself with some numbers. And I honestly couldn’t see anyone not being happy with a pair of 19inch ripped arms, especially as a natty, that’d be sick…Definitely want well over 20 inches though.

31

I dont know I kind of see things a bit differently then some of you, I remember Arnold saying that if he added 1 inch to a muscle group on his body hed have to add an inch all over to keep the symetry thats why Im more on akumas side then the other side.

Yeah you can say just eat and lift and it will work great ofcourse if everythings done right but knowing what needs to measure what in relation to everything else I think could be easier in the long run to having overal symetry. I know im not exaplining this good so this is what i mean. my Ideal measurements are

18 arms, calves and neck 53 chest
31 waist 27 thighs.

now when I acheive these measurements my body will look very symetrical no? So by getting to this point it is way easier to know what needs to improve, if i want bigger arms at that part i work on that, if i improve everything and do it right ill stay symetrical and wont have to worrry as much about the symetry later on if its already nailed beforehand. Ive talked to a lot of big guys that wished they had worried about symetry earlier on and now are frustrated trying to fix huge nagging weaknesses.

Thats why i think going by somewhat ideal measurements to a degree and acheiving them will make it easier and more productive later on then just eating big and training hard and leaving it at that. thats just my opinion and what im doing.

32

I dont really see why these measurements really matter? Is there some sort of a measure off contest going on? Why not just see how the scale weight looks, see how you look in the mirror and go from there? I know people measure as a way of comparing and seeing if they are progressing but cant you do the same thing looking in the mirror? Or see how your strength is going up in the gym?

I think people get way to hung up on numbers (especially BF%… really who gives a flying fuck what your percentage is? no one does. BF% is so dumb)

33

[quote]gregron wrote:
I dont really see why these measurements really matter? Is there some sort of a measure off contest going on? Why not just see how the scale weight looks, see how you look in the mirror and go from there? I know people measure as a way of comparing and seeing if they are progressing but cant you do the same thing looking in the mirror? Or see how your strength is going up in the gym?

I think people get way to hung up on numbers (especially BF%… really who gives a flying fuck what your percentage is? no one does. BF% is so dumb)
[/quote]

I actually agree its that bf% is pretty stupid most times except maybe in the final stages of preparation for a competition

34

I kinda agree Greg.

But when you know as well as I do that especially when your cutting, measurements are a good indicator that your losing fat, even if the scale doesn’t change.

For me, it’s what has kept me going. The stupid scale hardly ever budges. I actually gave it a nice hulk smash and no longer own a scale! :smiley:

35

[quote]gregron wrote:
I dont really see why these measurements really matter? Is there some sort of a measure off contest going on? Why not just see how the scale weight looks, see how you look in the mirror and go from there? I know people measure as a way of comparing and seeing if they are progressing but cant you do the same thing looking in the mirror? Or see how your strength is going up in the gym?

I think people get way to hung up on numbers (especially BF%… really who gives a flying fuck what your percentage is? no one does. BF% is so dumb)
[/quote]

These measurements wouldn’t matter…if most of the guys logging on understood that they needed to gain a lot more size. Most don’t. You have people looking at Mad Titan at only 176lbs or onemorerep on this site who may be 160 and apparently start thinking that they don’t need to put on much weight to make huge changes in appearance…as if no one made it clear what a difference HEIGHT can make or genetic muscle shape.

Yes, for clueless people like that, maybe these measurements can be a start. I’ve passed all of those measurements and arguments about body fat are why I generally don’t participate in threads like this.

Those far less developed always seem to harp on that above all else when the truth is, the bigger guy is usually only a good 4 months away from making them look like shit.

36

Everybody in here must do some serious wrist training, because my “ideal” grecian measurements are as follows:

Chest Size: 42.3
Forearm Size: 12.3
Waist Size: 29.6
Thigh Size: 22.4
Hip Size: 35.9
Calf Size: 14.4
Biceps Size: 15.2
Neck Size: 15.6

I’ve only been focused on bodybuilding for a couple months, and already fulfill a couple of these (all lower body meaurements, damn squats!). The Steve Reeves one seems more like an actual goal:

Arm 16.4
Calf 17
Neck 17.75
Chest 57 <<<this is rediculous, Obviously high bc it compares my ass, which is huge from squats
Waist 33
Thigh 26

37

I’m a friggin’ dwarf.
My supposed ideal is the Travelocity gnome.

Thanks for the genes, mom and dad!

38

[quote]mom-in-MD wrote:
I actually gave it a nice hulk smash and no longer own a scale! :D[/quote]
YEAH!

39

I stand by “it can never be wrong to ‘just get bigger all over’ …”

40

Even if your approach is to just make everything bigger (which isn’t a bad approach IMO), simply by glancing in a mirror occasionally you’ll have some idea whether something is out of proportion without really needing to worry about actual measurements. I think I measured my bodyparts years ago when I needed more of a sense of personal identity (every idiot gym goer likes to ask how big your arms are -lol), but the only real concept I maintained in the back of my mind when evaluating my build in a mirror or photos was that Reeve’s upper arms, calves and neck all measured the same circumference.

S