Mayweather vs Pacquiao

Training
61

[quote]LondonBoxer123 wrote:
I think we’re all on the same page here more or less. I have nothing but respect for the work ethic and discipline of any top level athlete, and to be honest, the hardest working in any discipline will all be comparable in terms of insane levels of dedication, professionalism, and crazy punishing training. That’s what sets them apart in many ways, whatever they do. The difference is what comes at the end of the hard work though. For the combat athlete (including rugby etc) it is the demands of competition that set them apart. Most sports do not force you to absorb crippling punishment for prolonged periods and still perform optimally, and it is that ability to perform in spite of extreme physical pain and the emotional response of devastating leg, body and head shots that no other sport, whatever its demands, can truly replicate. [/quote]

Totally agree.

62

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
True, I would place any contact sports a little higher on the mental toughness scale (boxing, Muay Thai/kickboxing, wrestling, Judo, Rugby, American Football, Lacrosse, etc…) due to the punishment those athletes’ bodies take on a regular basis. But the topic was “hardest working”, not “toughest”, which I think is a little more open for interpretation. If someone tried to suggest that Bodybuilders were the “physically toughest” athletes, then I’d ask them for some of whatever they’ve been smoking, because they aren’t, not even close. But, a case could be made for them being among the “hardest working” (depending on how you define that term).[/quote]

Much more concise than my rambling lol. And agreed. Hardest working encompasses a vast array of things and/or attributes that must be in place.

And my post above means mental toughness in a sort of grindy way, not the way of taking punishment.[/quote]

Mental and physical toughness are at least positively correlated; it takes mental toughness to continue to work through pain and discomfort, and physical training that makes you uncomfortable will build mental toughness. It’s a virtuous cycle.

That said, they aren’t the same thing per se. For instance, a sniper being able to sit motionless in a single position (possibly in heat, rain, cold, snow, etc…) and stare through a scope for 24 straight hours waiting to take a shot takes tremendous mental toughness, but nowhere near the physical toughness of say a Muay Thai fight. On the other hand someone might be hard as nails in the ring or cage, but have a nervous breakdown and curl up and die if placed into a survival situation where they had to eat disgusting things or go to extreme measures to survive.

63

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
True, I would place any contact sports a little higher on the mental toughness scale (boxing, Muay Thai/kickboxing, wrestling, Judo, Rugby, American Football, Lacrosse, etc…) due to the punishment those athletes’ bodies take on a regular basis. But the topic was “hardest working”, not “toughest”, which I think is a little more open for interpretation. If someone tried to suggest that Bodybuilders were the “physically toughest” athletes, then I’d ask them for some of whatever they’ve been smoking, because they aren’t, not even close. But, a case could be made for them being among the “hardest working” (depending on how you define that term).[/quote]

Much more concise than my rambling lol. And agreed. Hardest working encompasses a vast array of things and/or attributes that must be in place.

And my post above means mental toughness in a sort of grindy way, not the way of taking punishment.[/quote]

Mental and physical toughness are at least positively correlated; it takes mental toughness to continue to work through pain and discomfort, and physical training that makes you uncomfortable will build mental toughness. It’s a virtuous cycle.

That said, they aren’t the same thing per se. For instance, a sniper being able to sit motionless in a single position (possibly in heat, rain, cold, snow, etc…) and stare through a scope for 24 straight hours waiting to take a shot takes tremendous mental toughness, but nowhere near the physical toughness of say a Muay Thai fight. On the other hand someone might be hard as nails in the ring or cage, but have a nervous breakdown and curl up and die if placed into a survival situation where they had to eat disgusting things or go to extreme measures to survive.[/quote]

This is a good observation Sento. I’d be interested in hearing more from you on it, and how far you feel it is possible to develop one trait or the other.

My own view is that it is largely genetic. Purely from my own experience, I’ve always had a high tolerance to enduring (prolonged) hardship and an ability to be extremely calm and focused under duress - indeed my level of performance is optimised under these conditions. However, I was aware pretty early in my boxing career that I had maxed out my physical toughness, and that I was never going to be in the top 10% in that world when it came to the ability to endure physical punishment. I tried for a long time to develop my physical toughness, but I don’t feel it did me any good past a certain point. I don’t think it was a lack of heart, or a mental weakness (I did for a while when I was in my teens, and it threw me off my game for a bit), I genuinely believe some people were just physically able to absorb more punishment.

I think in many ways it is the most interesting area of combat sports. What is it to be tough? What is the optimal constitution for a fighter? How important is it actually to be physically tough?

Sorry to hijack your thread Idaho, I swear it’s not revenge for my log.

64

[quote]LondonBoxer123 wrote:
I think we’re all on the same page here more or less. I have nothing but respect for the work ethic and discipline of any top level athlete, and to be honest, the hardest working in any discipline will all be comparable in terms of insane levels of dedication, professionalism, and crazy punishing training. That’s what sets them apart in many ways, whatever they do. The difference is what comes at the end of the hard work though. For the combat athlete (including rugby etc) it is the demands of competition that set them apart. Most sports do not force you to absorb crippling punishment for prolonged periods and still perform optimally, and it is that ability to perform in spite of extreme physical pain and the emotional response of devastating leg, body and head shots that no other sport, whatever its demands, can truly replicate. [/quote]

100% man

65

[quote]LondonBoxer123 wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
True, I would place any contact sports a little higher on the mental toughness scale (boxing, Muay Thai/kickboxing, wrestling, Judo, Rugby, American Football, Lacrosse, etc…) due to the punishment those athletes’ bodies take on a regular basis. But the topic was “hardest working”, not “toughest”, which I think is a little more open for interpretation. If someone tried to suggest that Bodybuilders were the “physically toughest” athletes, then I’d ask them for some of whatever they’ve been smoking, because they aren’t, not even close. But, a case could be made for them being among the “hardest working” (depending on how you define that term).[/quote]

Much more concise than my rambling lol. And agreed. Hardest working encompasses a vast array of things and/or attributes that must be in place.

And my post above means mental toughness in a sort of grindy way, not the way of taking punishment.[/quote]

Mental and physical toughness are at least positively correlated; it takes mental toughness to continue to work through pain and discomfort, and physical training that makes you uncomfortable will build mental toughness. It’s a virtuous cycle.

That said, they aren’t the same thing per se. For instance, a sniper being able to sit motionless in a single position (possibly in heat, rain, cold, snow, etc…) and stare through a scope for 24 straight hours waiting to take a shot takes tremendous mental toughness, but nowhere near the physical toughness of say a Muay Thai fight. On the other hand someone might be hard as nails in the ring or cage, but have a nervous breakdown and curl up and die if placed into a survival situation where they had to eat disgusting things or go to extreme measures to survive.[/quote]

This is a good observation Sento. I’d be interested in hearing more from you on it, and how far you feel it is possible to develop one trait or the other.

My own view is that it is largely genetic. Purely from my own experience, I’ve always had a high tolerance to enduring (prolonged) hardship and an ability to be extremely calm and focused under duress - indeed my level of performance is optimised under these conditions. However, I was aware pretty early in my boxing career that I had maxed out my physical toughness, and that I was never going to be in the top 10% in that world when it came to the ability to endure physical punishment. I tried for a long time to develop my physical toughness, but I don’t feel it did me any good past a certain point. I don’t think it was a lack of heart, or a mental weakness (I did for a while when I was in my teens, and it threw me off my game for a bit), I genuinely believe some people were just physically able to absorb more punishment.

I think in many ways it is the most interesting area of combat sports. What is it to be tough? What is the optimal constitution for a fighter? How important is it actually to be physically tough?

Sorry to hijack your thread Idaho, I swear it’s not revenge for my log.[/quote]

This is a fascinating subject to me. I don’t believe that it is “largely” genetic, but being in the top 10% of pros in the world and having something largely genetically determined aren’t necessarily the same ballpark :). I think a lot of people may not have the genetic toughness to handle that. Some people are undoubtedly able to absorb more punishment than others. Certain aspects like bone density can be changed or augmented through training and thus help significantly both toughness and pain tolerance (through the training process), but there’s going to be a genetic component. On the other hand, I think it is also very trainable.

I personally believe mental toughness to be very, very trainable. A large part of that is helped or hindered by parenting and guidance into being disciplined in general, but that’s not the only possible pathway.

66

IME both are trainable, but like you both said, there is a genetic component to both as well. Even in arenas outside of combat (since we were previously discussing other competitive sports let’s use them as an example) you have certain individuals who just seem unbreakable physically (Cap Ripkin Jr for example), and others who seem to be able to handle tremendous emotional and mental pressure (Michael Jordan for example). If we want to talk combat/contact sports then somebody like Dan Gable or Rocky Marciano would be examples of physically unbreakable athletes, while guys like Sugar Ray Robinson or Fedor would be examples of guys who never seemed to let pressure get to them.

Now, maybe this is due to them putting more time and effort into developing these qualities than their competitors, but I tend to think they were just hard wired to excel in these areas and then combined that with copious amounts of blood sweat and tears to maximize those natural gifts.

For instance, one of my instructors Shihan Charlie Lysak has abnormally hard, dense bones, has a ridiculously high pain threshold, and is ridiculously strong. Now you could point to the fact that he has been training in hardcore Martial Arts since he was very young, got into countless fights (often against bigger or multiple opponents) growing up, and has always been a fanatic about strength and conditioning as reasons for this. But, his brother Shihan Walt Jr pretty much had the exact same upbringing and he admittedly is nowhere close to Shihan Charlie in terms of strength or durability. Their father Shihan Walt Sr was as or even more of an extreme example than Shihan Charlie. So, some people just essentially win the genetic lottery in certain areas I guess.

That said, from my experience (and from the experience passed down to me), you can absolutely maximize both your physical toughness and mental toughness through correct and progressive training. This is the concept behind things like BUD/S training for the SEALs, SERE training for the Green Berets, Black Belt testing in hardcore Martial Arts, etc…

67

Interesting post, and thought provoking as always, Sento. I think I was too imprecise in my post. I agree that mental and physical toughness can both be trained to a reasonably high level, and correct training can maximise it. My understanding of USSF selection is limited, but as far as Selection events are concerned, based on what I know of UKSF Selection, the aim is not really what I’d call correct and progressive training, rather it is a gut check aimed particularly at testing mental resilience. Of course, there is an element of physical toughness, but I would say it is more a question of hardiness rather than physical toughness. Blisters, muscular issues, etc are obviously pretty painful (potentially debilitating), but I would attribute the ability to press on through this to mental toughness, rather than physical toughness, and the physical element is more an ability to be rugged and crack on through prolonged moderate discomfort.

By contrast, it sounds like your Shihan would most likely be able to endure very high levels of repeated acute pain over a short period as a result of physical toughness, without needing to be particularly tough mentally (I’m sure he was mentally very tough too, I’m just using the physical description you gave to illustrate the point), given his remarkable physical ability to not feel the effects of severe trauma as chronically as most men, even tough ones, would.

I’m not sure, on rereading your post, that I’m really disagreeing with you, just thinking out loud.

68

Yeah, SF selection is mostly about testing mental toughness (hence why the drop out rate is so high) than building it, but even those who make it (one of the guys who trains with us is a Master Sargeant Green Beret) say the experience actually makes them mentally tougher than they were when they went in. Even though I have never been through such training I had the same experience with getting to and earning my Black Belt in LSM. Putting yourself hell will make you mental tougher (as I’m sure isn’t news to you or any other combat athlete, though adding in exposure to the elements, sleep deprivation and extreme levels of fatigue/exhaustion do kick things up a few notches beyond what most Combat Athletes usually put themselves through).

69

If there’s one definitive loser from this matchup, it has to be Ricky Hatton.

In the last two months i’ve seen the clips of his KO’s courtesy of Pac and Mayweather probably 100 times each, they seem to be the go-to clip in every video that’s been produced to hype or analyze the fight.

70

[quote]IronMaiden144 wrote:
If there’s one definitive loser from this matchup, it has to be Ricky Hatton.

In the last two months i’ve seen the clips of his KO’s courtesy of Pac and Mayweather probably 100 times each, they seem to be the go-to clip in every video that’s been produced to hype or analyze the fight.[/quote]

LOL. So true. Poor Ricky. Love that dude.

71

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

Oh, and Pigeon, a 300 lb bench isn’t anywhere close to what a real bodybuilder is putting up ;). But agree with your point overall though.[/quote]

Lol, I’m getting called out hard here. They say write what you know, and I know light benching :wink:

But I’m more concerned about fairly mediocre meatheads thinking that simple strength translates into ring/street fighting ability. Of course it doesn’t. However I’m quite sure that there are plenty very strong guys putting up powerlifting numbers that can handle themselves no doubt.

72

Here are some “pearlth of withdom” from Mike Tyson on Mayweather, and it really under scores how your legacy as a fighter has as much to do with your life outside the ring as it does in the ring. And I agree with Tyson here. Pacquiao doesn’t guard himself from the people, here or back home in the Philippines and people love him for it.

Tyson is no sycophant, so he can predict a win for Mayweather without offering to suck his dick. This is the objectivity I wish I saw more often when building up to these huge fights.

73

fuck tyson. who is he to bemoan someone for the way they conduct themselves. hes the most overrated fighter in the history of boxing.

he hasnt changed at all, you can see the sadistic, evil look in his eyes when he starts talking about floyd “hes a very small, scared man”. he starts insulting floyd and then not satisfied with that goes on to his appearance trying to belittle him.

74

[quote]CarltonJ wrote:
fuck tyson. who is he to bemoan someone for the way they conduct themselves. hes the most overrated fighter in the history of boxing.

he hasnt changed at all, you can see the sadistic, evil look in his eyes when he starts talking about floyd “hes a very small, scared man”. he starts insulting floyd and then not satisfied with that goes on to his appearance trying to belittle him.
[/quote]

I know that Tyson is not a stellar human being either but Mayweather gives him a good run for his money in the despicable human being department.

Mayweather is undefeated as a boxer and apparently also undefeated hitting women and threatening children. I would love to see Pacquiao kick the crap out of him in front of millions of people. But we all know that sometimes justice is not served up that clean and neat. But, I can live with that. The fact that Floyd Mayweather is a great boxer does not undo his many, many offenses against women and others (some we have not read about because he has purchased their silence).

In short he’s a tremendously talented thug.

“Mayweather also pled no contest to two counts of misdemeanor harassment, stemming from threats to his children”

"Criminal convictions

In 2002, Mayweather was charged with two counts of domestic violence and one count of misdemeanor battery. He received a six-month suspended sentence and two days of house arrest and was ordered to perform 48 hours of community service.[162]

In 2004 Mayweather was given a one-year suspended jail sentence, ordered to undergo counseling for “impulse control” and pay a $1,000 fine (or perform 100 hours of community service) after being convicted of two counts of misdemeanor battery against two women.[163]

In 2005 Mayweather pleaded no contest to a misdemeanor battery charge after hitting and kicking a bouncer, receiving a 90-day suspended jail sentence.[164][165]

On September 9, 2010, it was reported that Mayweather was being sought by police for questioning after his former girlfriend, Josie Harris, filed a domestic battery report against him. Harris accused Mayweather of battery in the past, but those charges were dropped in July 2005 after Harris testified that she had lied and that Mayweather had not battered her.[165] Mayweather was taken into custody September 10, 2010, but was released after posting $3,000 bail. Mayweather was initially charged with felony theft (stemming from the disappearance of Harris’s mobile phone); on September 16 two felony coercion charges, one felony robbery charge, one misdemeanor domestic-battery charge and three misdemeanor harassment charges were added.

On December 21, 2011, a judge sentenced Mayweather to serve 90 days in the county jail for battery upon Harris in September 2010. Mayweather reached a deal with prosecutors in which he pled guilty to misdemeanor battery in exchange for prosecutors dropping the felony battery charge. Mayweather also pled no contest to two counts of misdemeanor harassment, stemming from threats to his children. In addition to the 90-day sentence Mayweather was ordered to complete 100 hours of community service, a 12-month domestic-violence program and to pay a fine of $2,500.[166] On June 1 Mayweather began serving his county jail sentence,[167] and was released in August 2012."

75

Mayweather got knocked out in the 4th round of Dancing with the Stars -

So he can be beaten by someone who dances around better than he does…

76

[quote]CarltonJ wrote:
fuck tyson. who is he to bemoan someone for the way they conduct themselves. hes the most overrated fighter in the history of boxing.

he hasnt changed at all, you can see the sadistic, evil look in his eyes when he starts talking about floyd “hes a very small, scared man”. he starts insulting floyd and then not satisfied with that goes on to his appearance trying to belittle him.
[/quote]

I’m distinguishing between Tyson’s own actions and his expert opinion (because it is expert opinion). I think what really made Tyson’s comments pop out is that he, a phenom boxer with equal infamy out of the ring and a string of dysfunctional and illegal failures of character, just called out Mayweather for his own shitty behaviour. Tyson knows better than anyone that greatness eluded him because of his behaviour out of the ring.

When I was a kid, and sometimes when I’m lame, I say “Takes one to know one”. That’s what’s happening here and that’s why I like it.

A sports journalist friend of mine just dropped this truth bomb on Facebook and it echoes what Tyson said with much more eloquence:

“Mayweather’s confidence about his ability in the ring definitely doesn’t come from a place of insecurity. When you know you know. He doesn’t need to be reassured about his talent by external affirmations from you or me. But his reckless outward displays of opulence surely do to speak to the little man syndrome he seems to wrestle with. Maybe that’s got to do with his lack of confidence in his ability to fight from in the pocket in the bigger ring of life.”

77

floyd does a lot of detestable things that i cant and wouldnt even begin to try and defend.

but…who the fuck is tyson to talk about being accepted by the people. fans who connected with tyson did so because he was a savage. because he was ruthless and brutal. because he was the complete of opposite of an upstanding member of the community.

tysons a bully. its funny to hear him take the high ground.

78

When I was a kid, and sometimes when I’m lame, I say “Takes one to know one”. That’s what’s happening here and that’s why I like it.

fair enough. i can see that.

But his reckless outward displays of opulence surely do to speak to the little man syndrome he seems to wrestle with. Maybe that’s got to do with his lack of confidence in his ability to fight from in the pocket in the bigger ring of life."

meh, i think its easy to tag it as little man syndrome. it could be the case, but its not a given. i think he could have an inferiority complex in some aspect, but i wouldnt necessarily say its this.

i also think we need to consider he has SHIT TONNE OF MONEY. more than any other boxer by a mile. more than any other athlete. so buying all this jewellery, cars etc. what else would he do with it. (other than donate it of course).

79

youll have to forgive me for not being able to put your quotes in the boxes. im still learning.

80

[quote]CarltonJ wrote:

i also think we need to consider he has SHIT TONNE OF MONEY. more than any other boxer by a mile. more than any other athlete. so buying all this jewellery, cars etc. what else would he do with it. (other than donate it of course).[/quote]

Ok, first let me just state that this is in now way meant to be racist or compare Floyd with chimps; you have to watch the entire South Park episode to fully get the joke.

But in all seriousness, suggesting that Floyd having a ton of money automatically means he will beat women and children is just insane (which Indon’t think you meant to suggest, but still kind of did). No denying that such power and financial resources can be corrupting and can cause people to believe they are “above the law”, but such acts would still not be carried out by someone who did not already have those tendencies within their psyche; money simply allows them the means to actually act on such impulses.