[quote]fd24 wrote:
But what I do know is that my knowledge far surpasses yours. Keep taking a $500 indigo product which simply aims to do some of the things that fasting can do. [/quote]
Is this where the HUMILITY is supposed to be located at?
[quote]ds1973 wrote:
LOL. This thread is out of hand…
As pointed out earlier, Martins fees are simply a result of demand. If one wants to get really lean using the principles of IF one can either
-
Spend the time understanding IF by reading all the information that Martin has put out on his site for free and put it into practice, all the while getting to know your body better and gaining confidence in your ability to manipulate it. This takes time.
-
Spend a good chunk of money for Martin to spoon feed it all too you and probably get real lean a lot faster than you would on your own.
Most of us here would probably choose option 1.
There are others here who would also spend $400 a month for a supplement that essentially does the same thing that you can do for free using intermittent fasting. Marketing is marketing and no one does it better than Biotest. There’s no shame is what Martin or Biotest do. They are offering a solution that saves people time and time is money.[/quote]
You know…option one is how you should approach all of the relevant knowledge in bodybuilding.
That is what people were discussing…not whether someone should market their product to make money.
I have no faults to point out on the guy for making a living.
I am faulting the people who jump into “option 2” because that makes them the same as the lemmings buying late night ab twisters as well.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]fd24 wrote:
But what I do know is that my knowledge far surpasses yours. Keep taking a $500 indigo product which simply aims to do some of the things that fasting can do. [/quote]
Is this where the HUMILITY is supposed to be located at?[/quote]
I have confidence in my knowledge against someone who has displayed a history of being close-minded. I try to read as much as I possibly can and without a bias. I am willing to try new things even if they are outside of the norm, like IF. As I stated earlier, it is not my goal to compete. I love lifting, I love making gains, but I have no desire to bulk up to high levels of bodyfat. You and I have different goals and so be it. It’s hard to have this discussion when you know very little about IF. You can bulk on IF, it’s still all about the amount of macros you are consuming it just utilizes different feeding windows.
Didn’t Professor X give out bulking advice to this fat kid George Leeman who bulked “inefficiently” and gained zero muscle while putting on gobs of fat? I bet if he ever tried to get lean…oh wait
I have never once written that someone should bulk up to “high levels of body fat” or anything like that.
Also, Leeman is badass.
I’m going to break down your original post line by line. You should feel flattered because I never do this for anyone 
“Unreal. It seems like Prof, CC, myself, Stu, and several others are the dumb ones. We’ve been giving our shit away for free on here for years… could have been RICH by now on the backs of the gullible.”
Correct me if I’m wrong, but to me it seems you’re saying Martin Berkhan has given out minimal free info on his method and hasn’t helped very many people compared to you, PX, C_C and Stu from a nutritional standpoint. My viewpoint is the complete opposite. Multiple people have said that you can get the basics of his plan from his website. Can you, PX, Stu or C_C provide a single example of a transformation that matches one of Berkhan’s? Matter of fact, Stu charges for his services. PX (no offense to you, but this is the truth and I’m sure you’d admit it) has very limited knowledge on the specifics of diet and C_C is fairly clueless as well.
“Of course we can still sleep at night so maybe its a wash.”
Correct me if I’m wrong, but to me it seems you’re saying Martin Berkhan’s actions are so unconscionably wrong that he should find it hard to sleep at night. Really? When he’s helped so many people for free?
“This guy knows nothing extraordinary that would justify this money. He’s simply an ectomorph who cleaned up his diet and got shredded. There are no tricks. “Diet holidays” aren’t magical…pick any days you want. The cheesecake is just a marketing tool.”
I actually agree with a lot of this quote. There is nothing magical about what Berkhan does. There are many, many ways to get lean. He really isn’t justified in asking for this much money. But, the man is not an ectomorph and what he has managed to do with his body naturally is much more impressive than you give him credit for.
What exactly is so terrible about skipping breakfast or fasting for a few hours before bed? I agree that when it comes time to eat 3000/4000/5000 calories a day it is far easier to split that into multiple smaller meals. Berkhan doesn’t really seem to go into that aspect of things.
I understand that people can have differing opinions on how things should be done. My issue is with the way you chose to characterize the guy and trivialize his accomplishments.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]PB Andy wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]fd24 wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]fd24 wrote:
And what’s more telling is that he got THAT LEAN by not following any of the normal recommended diets of today. Doing all of the things you aren’t supposed to do. [/quote]
Like what? I dropped the first 3 inches off my waist eating pizza and chicken wings twice a week.[/quote]
I know it must be frustrating that people can enjoy food like that and still stay lean while you struggle to. I would be mad too and try to make it seem foolish and wrong. [/quote]
?
I’m not understanding this post at all.
I just told you how I ate to drop a significant amount of body fat. How does your comment fit into that?[/quote]
He’s saying people can enjoy pizza, wings, etc while doing IF.[/quote]
?
Didn’t I just say I did the same thing without doing IF?[/quote]
I don’t know what you said, I’m just explaining what he said.
There really isn’t anything new in the world of bb…I’d say more than 90% of the stuff is just constantly being regurgitated and presented in a new way. No one is discriminating the method of IF…they are just saying charging $1500/month for something that’s been presented for free and has been around for ages just do not sit well with some people. I’m not bashing of Berkhan for charging this much either…supply and demand. Heck, if I was him I’d do the same. But not everyone is willing to do so. To each their own. I think the fact that those of you defending Berkhan so strongly are just adding more to the fuel.
[quote]PB Andy wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]PB Andy wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]fd24 wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]fd24 wrote:
And what’s more telling is that he got THAT LEAN by not following any of the normal recommended diets of today. Doing all of the things you aren’t supposed to do. [/quote]
Like what? I dropped the first 3 inches off my waist eating pizza and chicken wings twice a week.[/quote]
I know it must be frustrating that people can enjoy food like that and still stay lean while you struggle to. I would be mad too and try to make it seem foolish and wrong. [/quote]
?
I’m not understanding this post at all.
I just told you how I ate to drop a significant amount of body fat. How does your comment fit into that?[/quote]
He’s saying people can enjoy pizza, wings, etc while doing IF.[/quote]
?
Didn’t I just say I did the same thing without doing IF?[/quote]
I don’t know what you said, I’m just explaining what he said.[/quote]
Prof X is no where near as lean as Martin or any of the transformations. He was carrying a lot of fat just dropping a couple fucking chicken wings would aid in fat loss, he has also stated that he is now eating alot of chicken breast something many do not have to do on IF.
What a clusterfuck.
I love you, T-Nation.
[quote]MODOK wrote:
So, the real essence of IF is this: it doesn’t matter if you eat 6 meals or 3 meals or 1 meal, its about total macros right? (I personally believe this is completely wrong for a bodybuilder. There are many physiological points that MB does not either take into consideration or know about. But I digress).[/quote]
Id be very VERY grateful if you could elaborate on this MODOK. In your opinion, having gone through years of this lifestyle what do you feel is personally right about the “it doesn’t matter how many meals, just macros”?
Its probably a very newbie question but Id still be very interested in hearing your take on it.
[quote]ds1973 wrote:
As pointed out earlier, Martins fees are simply a result of demand. [/quote]
Not necessarily. The fees could be artificially set by the long waiting list and the interest generated by it. People look at the waiting time and wonder why so many people are signing up, they think there is something special up for grabs, feel like they’re missing out and sign up (only to get put off by the price later and drop out).
It would only be demand if people are paying up after reaching the top of the list. I doubt there’s anywhere near a genuine eight month-long backlog of clients, and I’m curious as to what information MB is giving out that hasn’t been discussed on the leangains site, and that justifies the high price tag (but of course, it’s the curiosity that leads people to request a referral in the first place, and swells the waiting list).
I could be totally wrong, in which case we should brace ourselves for a flood of glowing endorsements from hundreds of high-flying moneybags execs…
Either way, I can’t really fault MB for the price: somebody must be paying it for it to settle at that amount. Although I do think that it only takes a few wealthy clients to set that price and make the service (and information) exclusive, when it might not be as special as it appears…
roybot, ok demand and supply. Martin can only take on so many clients. A high price is one way of being sure that the client you take on is serious about getting results and following the program to the letter. I bet with in-person clients, the cost is not as high.
It’s like Biotest saying they’re only going to sell Indigo to people “serious” about getting results. People who will commit to a minimum purchase and agree to use it as prescribed.
Definitely adds a sense of exclusivity to the product.
This post was seriously great fun to read. LOL. Almost all off topic, but great to read non the less…
Not sure why anyone would or can justify having a go at Martin. His website is fantastic; he has a great understanding of nutrition and the science that goes along with it; he has put all of this together and produced remarkable results on himself and others. If you’ve read his comments on other forums and his insights into discussions on nutrition, you would realize that he is the real deal.
So what’s wrong with him charging huge fees? It’s all relative to how rich you are. He is in high demand, so it makes sense to charge more. He is a business man on top of being a seriously talented trainer and nutritional adviser. Why should he charge less?
Although I totally agree that his ideas are by no means new and revolutionary - he has put it all together in a neat and well tweaked package that is perfect for many people and that yields great results. For most gym goers, you can get all the info you need from his website. But if $1500 is like loose change to you, then why not work with Martin.
Anyway, enough bashing on Martin. He is not trying to sell a bogus product. He produces results, period.
[quote]ds1973 wrote:
roybot, ok demand and supply. Martin can only take on so many clients. A high price is one way of being sure that the client you take on is serious about getting results and following the program to the letter. I bet with in-person clients, the cost is not as high. [/quote]
^ That first line suggests you haven’t read my post. You’ve gone back to ‘demand’ again. There is no ‘demand’ because there aren’t enough people on that list who can afford the fees. If there were, the fees would be going up relative to that increased demand. The list represents ‘interest’, not ‘demand’.
If I’m wrong, there should be scores of testimonials from these huge numbers of private clients. Where are they?
We’re not talking about in-person clients, though. We’re talking about the fees relating to the people on that waiting list. Again, as I said in that last post, he’s not going to have an eight month-long waiting list where most people are going to take it to the next level and pay for his services.
The price is set by the few clients wealthy enough to afford that price. Which in itself is no guarantee of commitment or success unless you can’t afford to lose that money. They can because they’ve accepted that price as a reasonable one by paying it. The exclusivity comes from those rich clients pushing everyone else out of the running, not from who is most likely to succeed.
Why he charges what he charges is really not relevant. I know that he is currently not taking on any new clients - too many clients as it is. He’s in demand, he wants to earn the most cash he can. I do agree, that the higher price does not guarantee a higher level of commitment. But he would be mad to charge less than he can get.
Also, he has sparked so much interest and already has more work than he can do, so that’s probably why he is holding back on many testimonials. When demand dies down, he will probably post up a fresh set of client testimonials to drive up demand again.
I envy the guy. lol
[quote]roybot wrote:
[quote]ds1973 wrote:
roybot, ok demand and supply. Martin can only take on so many clients. A high price is one way of being sure that the client you take on is serious about getting results and following the program to the letter. I bet with in-person clients, the cost is not as high. [/quote]
^ That first line suggests you haven’t read my post. You’ve gone back to ‘demand’ again. There is no ‘demand’ because there aren’t enough people on that list who can afford the fees. If there were, the fees would be going up relative to that increased demand. The list represents ‘interest’, not ‘demand’.
If I’m wrong, there should be scores of testimonials from these huge numbers of private clients. Where are they?
We’re not talking about in-person clients, though. We’re talking about the fees relating to the people on that waiting list. Again, as I said in that last post, he’s not going to have an eight month-long waiting list where most people are going to take it to the next level and pay for his services.
The price is set by the few clients wealthy enough to afford that price. Which in itself is no guarantee of commitment or success unless you can’t afford to lose that money. They can because they’ve accepted that price as a reasonable one by paying it. The exclusivity comes from those rich clients pushing everyone else out of the running, not from who is most likely to succeed.
[/quote]
I don’t really think it has anything to do with the income of his client’s. I don’t know anything about this guy but I assume he is at capacity in terms of client’s he can manage in his work week 60-70 hours or something. So if he is going to take on new client’s he is going to make it worth his time and charge higher rates and if people decline like the OP then it is no skin off his back cause he already has all the client’s he needs. If he was in another profession he would just hire staff to do his menial tasks etc. to bring his rates down but that isn’t really viable in personal training.
In terms of the exclusivity, I guess that could be related to the amount of requests he gets via email. Madoff had a similar allure to him when he was in his prime so that is a little concerning lol.
[quote]TommyGunz32 wrote:
[quote]roybot wrote:
[quote]ds1973 wrote:
roybot, ok demand and supply. Martin can only take on so many clients. A high price is one way of being sure that the client you take on is serious about getting results and following the program to the letter. I bet with in-person clients, the cost is not as high. [/quote]
^ That first line suggests you haven’t read my post. You’ve gone back to ‘demand’ again. There is no ‘demand’ because there aren’t enough people on that list who can afford the fees. If there were, the fees would be going up relative to that increased demand. The list represents ‘interest’, not ‘demand’.
If I’m wrong, there should be scores of testimonials from these huge numbers of private clients. Where are they?
We’re not talking about in-person clients, though. We’re talking about the fees relating to the people on that waiting list. Again, as I said in that last post, he’s not going to have an eight month-long waiting list where most people are going to take it to the next level and pay for his services.
The price is set by the few clients wealthy enough to afford that price. Which in itself is no guarantee of commitment or success unless you can’t afford to lose that money. They can because they’ve accepted that price as a reasonable one by paying it. The exclusivity comes from those rich clients pushing everyone else out of the running, not from who is most likely to succeed.
[/quote]
I don’t really think it has anything to do with the income of his client’s. I don’t know anything about this guy but I assume he is at capacity in terms of client’s he can manage in his work week 60-70 hours or something. So if he is going to take on new client’s he is going to make it worth his time and charge higher rates and if people decline like the OP then it is no skin off his back cause he already has all the client’s he needs. If he was in another profession he would just hire staff to do his menial tasks etc. to bring his rates down but that isn’t really viable in personal training.
In terms of the exclusivity, I guess that could be related to the amount of requests he gets via email. Madoff had a similar allure to him when he was in his prime so that is a little concerning lol. [/quote]
I agree totally:
I know that he is currently not taking on any new clients - too many clients as it is. He’s in demand, he wants to earn the most cash he can. I do agree, that the higher price does not guarantee a higher level of commitment. But he would be mad to charge less than he can get.
Also, he has sparked so much interest and already has more work than he can do, so that’s probably why he is holding back on many testimonials. When demand dies down, he will probably post up a fresh set of client testimonials to drive up demand again.
I envy the guy. lol
Despite all the debate, it highlights how much IF is starting to gain a foothold in contemporary bodybuilding - and guys like MB as well as Warrior Diet author Ori Hofmekler have been pioneers in that. Personally I think it’s totally refreshing to get away with all that eat every 3 hours stuff. Would I part with $1500 for it? No way; $10 for a copy of the WD book and a few hours surfing the web should be sufficient to get a solid handle on IF on how to apply it to your personal circumstances…
Pendulum swinging. I eat as often as I need to. Guys expecting to really get huge will need to spend some years forcing those meals in.
Getting lean is a different story altogether.
I may eat twice a day now as far as solid meals. It may be three times a days. But what is strange is people acting like it is “refreshing” to not hear “6 meals a day”. That tactic is what built most of the really huge guys walking around and who it was meant for…not people who want to tone.
Mind you, I am in no way bashing the goals other people may have, just stating what should be obvious as far as the logic involved with WHY someone would need to eat that frequently and who the advice was originally for.