I don’t know. I went to the site and most of the “success stories” seem to have lost bodyfat, sure, but none of them seems like they actually put on significant lean mass.
I might consider this diet on a cut, but would doubt its capable of putting on some mass except on a real beginner.
[quote]NotaQuitta wrote:
I don’t know. I went to the site and most of the “success stories” seem to have lost bodyfat, sure, but none of them seems like they actually put on significant lean mass.
I might consider this diet on a cut, but would doubt its capable of putting on some mass except on a real beginner.[/quote]
Ok, this is the type of response I am talking about. Let me start by saying I’m not trying to attack you but if you guys don’t understand any of the IF principles it’s not intelligent to make assumptions like this. When ProfessorX says you need to eat more or “bulk” to get bigger he is correct, I am not debating that. All I was saying is that the constant force feeding of 6-8 meals may not be the best way, that’s all.
Does it work for a lot of people? Yes. Does IF work for people? Yes. I’ve done it, and yes the guys with big physiques have done it but that doesn’t mean it’s the only or best way. Bodybuilding, nutrition, training, all evolve as they should. Those people on his site are all people who started with very little, if any muscle at all. I would even venture to say a lot of them did gain some lean muscle mass in the process of becoming very lean.
A lot of people underestimate how much “size” they would lose when they truly diet for the first time and reach the low levels of bf as those guys. Also, we don’t know their goals and I’m pretty sure they went to him for abs, one kid even specifically states “I want to look like brad pitt in fight club”…that’s not asking Martin to make him a huge bodybuilder.
Most people are satisfied with being lean and that’s ok too. At the end of the day we can all agree that it is about the right amount and type of nutrients. A huge part of fasting and IF is the nutrient repartitioning effect (kind of like this Biotest super product) but without taking 14 capsules and spending $500.
I have bulked up to 245 by following the 8 meals and personally it was not for me. We all have different goals which is fine and I did not mean to unfairly criticize anyone. I felt as though a lot of the weight I put on was unnecessary fat and that it ruined my insulin sensitivity, something I have since restored. If nothing else, IF is another tool that has definite benefits and can be very useful if applied properly.
There have been some very entertaining discussions so far on this thread. But back to the point at hand, I don’t understand why people are having a hard time grasping the price that Berkhan charges. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder as they say. Berkhan has a service that he provides, and seems to have an excellent success rate with his clients. Ultimately it’s up to the client to decide whether or not the price is worth the return to them.
It also could be that Berkhan’s service may provide some useful information to even experienced body builders or strength enthusiasts. Is that information worth the money? It depends on how much you care.
I’ve never worked with a coach before, but I have been seriously considering working with a coach. In my particular case, money is not really an issue, so I would rather spend a little bit extra to work with someone who has a good success rate, and someone who will provide a dieting strategy that is flexible. Does Shelby have a good success rate? Absolutely! Do I want to eat chicken breasts six times a day? No thanks.
I don’t think that means I am any less disciplined or hard working, and I’m not looking for an easy way out. However, if there is a method that can get me to my goals without interfering too much with my life, then I would be all for it. I run my own business and am doing 60-70 hour weeks, I don’t want to brood about my next meal all day long. But that’s me.
[quote]ethanwest wrote:
I don’t think that means I am any less disciplined or hard working, and I’m not looking for an easy way out. However, if there is a method that can get me to my goals without interfering too much with my life, then I would be all for it. I run my own business and am doing 60-70 hour weeks, I don’t want to brood about my next meal all day long. But that’s me.[/quote]
Yeah, it is you. I run my own business as well…and also still have another job at another clinic…and am hitting the gym twice a day right now…and working 6 days a week.
I don’t think like that because my goals exceed “toned on an average build”. That takes living this as a lifestyle, not looking for short cuts.
I have no problem with HIM charging whatever he pleases. I am criticizing the people who would avoid learning how their body works and how to eat and would pay that much for someone to spoon feed them. Why? Because those types don’t last. They never have. They are weekend warriors or New Years Resolutioners.
For bodybuilding, I think any person thinking like that is selling themselves short in the long run.
If your personal goals include still fitting into size medium and large shirts, you do not fall into that category and can do what you please. People like that don’t exactly stand out in the end.
[quote]MODOK wrote:
And professor x and CC are certainly not “clueless” about nutrition.
[/quote]
I didn’t even bother responding to that comment…but it is amazing how people think guys who have trained hard for several years, made more progress than average and have degrees in biology or medical fields…yet are CLUELESS about nutrition.
They really think like that though…which makes most discussion useless. It’s fun being spoken down to by people less educated.
[quote]MODOK wrote:
[quote]Oregand wrote:
[quote]MODOK wrote:
So, the real essence of IF is this: it doesn’t matter if you eat 6 meals or 3 meals or 1 meal, its about total macros right? (I personally believe this is completely wrong for a bodybuilder. There are many physiological points that MB does not either take into consideration or know about. But I digress).[/quote]
Id be very VERY grateful if you could elaborate on this MODOK. In your opinion, having gone through years of this lifestyle what do you feel is personally right about the “it doesn’t matter how many meals, just macros”?
Its probably a very newbie question but Id still be very interested in hearing your take on it.[/quote]
Thats the centerpiece of intermittent fasting. They claim that 3000 cal and 200 g protein is the same whether you eat it for dinner or spread it out over multiple feedings. They have some short-term studies which they use to back up this idea (never a good idea for justification of something you are going to do for the rest of your life). For fat loss, for a few months, I think it CAN help. You allow your SNS to dominate for a few more hours during the day, mobilizing more FA for energy.
You will not maintain the biggest, fullest muscle bellies at a lean bf though. There is simply too much total time that glucagon is running the show for that to happen. Insulin cannot overcome this with such a limited window of time to work. People get lean, but their muscles develop a stringy look. Thats fine for people who want to look like MB or Brad Pitt…not so much for bodybuilders who need full muscle bellies.
Another big issue is AM cortisol levels. Fasting through the morning allows cortisol to remain elevated far too long…with numerous deliterious effects to the physique. [/quote]
This effect can be seen on nearly every progress picture. They do not look filled out at all. they look very lean but also stringy…because your body adapts to how you feed it and train it.
Bodybuilders don’t do things for no reason…and for years, they were the leaders in what really worked as far as dieting.
My guess is, no one at the O this year will be fasting most of the day months before the contest. Acting like steroids change the game that much is a mistake.
[quote]MODOK wrote:
[quote]Oregand wrote:
[quote]MODOK wrote:
So, the real essence of IF is this: it doesn’t matter if you eat 6 meals or 3 meals or 1 meal, its about total macros right? (I personally believe this is completely wrong for a bodybuilder. There are many physiological points that MB does not either take into consideration or know about. But I digress).[/quote]
Id be very VERY grateful if you could elaborate on this MODOK. In your opinion, having gone through years of this lifestyle what do you feel is personally right about the “it doesn’t matter how many meals, just macros”?
Its probably a very newbie question but Id still be very interested in hearing your take on it.[/quote]
Thats the centerpiece of intermittent fasting. They claim that 3000 cal and 200 g protein is the same whether you eat it for dinner or spread it out over multiple feedings. They have some short-term studies which they use to back up this idea (never a good idea for justification of something you are going to do for the rest of your life). For fat loss, for a few months, I think it CAN help. You allow your SNS to dominate for a few more hours during the day, mobilizing more FA for energy.
You will not maintain the biggest, fullest muscle bellies at a lean bf though. There is simply too much total time that glucagon is running the show for that to happen. Insulin cannot overcome this with such a limited window of time to work. People get lean, but their muscles develop a stringy look. Thats fine for people who want to look like MB or Brad Pitt…not so much for bodybuilders who need full muscle bellies.
Another big issue is AM cortisol levels. Fasting through the morning allows cortisol to remain elevated far too long…with numerous deliterious effects to the physique. [/quote]
Wow great post…more please! Can you elaborate more 
Especially regarding glucagon and the AM cortisol relations to physique in the long run with IF.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]ethanwest wrote:
I don’t think that means I am any less disciplined or hard working, and I’m not looking for an easy way out. However, if there is a method that can get me to my goals without interfering too much with my life, then I would be all for it. I run my own business and am doing 60-70 hour weeks, I don’t want to brood about my next meal all day long. But that’s me.[/quote]
Yeah, it is you. I run my own business as well…and also still have another job at another clinic…and am hitting the gym twice a day right now…and working 6 days a week.
I don’t think like that because my goals exceed “toned on an average build”. That takes living this as a lifestyle, not looking for short cuts.
I have no problem with HIM charging whatever he pleases. I am criticizing the people who would avoid learning how their body works and how to eat and would pay that much for someone to spoon feed them. Why? Because those types don’t last. They never have. They are weekend warriors or New Years Resolutioners.
For bodybuilding, I think any person thinking like that is selling themselves short in the long run.
If your personal goals include still fitting into size medium and large shirts, you do not fall into that category and can do what you please. People like that don’t exactly stand out in the end.[/quote]
I completely agree that the type of people that don’t want to take the time to learn how the body works will most likely be the unimpressive folks in the long run. However, what’s wrong with getting put on a fast track? For example, I have been learning and playing around with my own training and diet over the past couple of years and enjoying the process along the way.
However, I think it would be nice to work with someone who has more experience than I do that can potentially cut out a considerable amount of time that I would spend using trial and error.
I love how Martin’s testimonials are the only people in the world who use IF lol. This is the third time I have said this but please go over to Dat’s forum and try to absorb some knowledge from those guys. They have plenty of members with great physiques who follow a toggling/IF approach. But back to Martin’s clients, YOU DON’T KNOW WHAT THEIR GOALS WERE, A MAJORITY OF PEOPLE WANT THAT LEAN SKINNY LOOK.
What makes it interesting is that it defies what almost every “nutritionist” will tell you…“eat multiple meals to keep metabolism high”…“avoid late night eating”…“Don’t have large meals”…I mean first it was no fat diets, then it was no carbs, etc. And having a degree in biology does not make one an expert on nutrition, sure it may help but a lot of what you learn in school is just outdated bs.
Some of my physical therapy professors shock me at how naive they are about some aspects of training, hell even some of their rehab methods could be improved if they did not live by the book. Not everything has to be what is fed to the general public or by following outdated and lackluster nutritional studies. Trial and error is a better way to learn in my opinion.
IF may not be for everyone but I believe that because it is so shockingly different from what so called nutrition experts (those with degrees in the field) tell you is the reason that it has gained such popularity. Is it the best way to win the Olympia? I have no idea but I know that a lot of aspects of IF have real value, and each person will respond differently.
Not to mention, your average person going to Martin is probably a drug free person who knows little about training and doesn’t love it like most of us do, because paying that price is ridiculous as we have all agreed. But A couple of top nutrition Bodybuilding coaches have started to have their clients begin each day with a slight fast…even while bulking.
[quote]MODOK wrote:
[quote]Oregand wrote:
[quote]MODOK wrote:
So, the real essence of IF is this: it doesn’t matter if you eat 6 meals or 3 meals or 1 meal, its about total macros right? (I personally believe this is completely wrong for a bodybuilder. There are many physiological points that MB does not either take into consideration or know about. But I digress).[/quote]
Id be very VERY grateful if you could elaborate on this MODOK. In your opinion, having gone through years of this lifestyle what do you feel is personally right about the “it doesn’t matter how many meals, just macros”?
Its probably a very newbie question but Id still be very interested in hearing your take on it.[/quote]
Thats the centerpiece of intermittent fasting. They claim that 3000 cal and 200 g protein is the same whether you eat it for dinner or spread it out over multiple feedings. They have some short-term studies which they use to back up this idea (never a good idea for justification of something you are going to do for the rest of your life). For fat loss, for a few months, I think it CAN help. You allow your SNS to dominate for a few more hours during the day, mobilizing more FA for energy.
You will not maintain the biggest, fullest muscle bellies at a lean bf though. There is simply too much total time that glucagon is running the show for that to happen. Insulin cannot overcome this with such a limited window of time to work. People get lean, but their muscles develop a stringy look. Thats fine for people who want to look like MB or Brad Pitt…not so much for bodybuilders who need full muscle bellies.
Another big issue is AM cortisol levels. Fasting through the morning allows cortisol to remain elevated far too long…with numerous deliterious effects to the physique. [/quote]
Okay, now I’m interested.
Are you saying that something begins to change in the chemistry when remaining on IF for a longer time, or that it stays the same and the effects are just cumulative?
And you think the negative hormonal effects out-way the positive ones?
I’m also curious about these “stingy muscles”. I’m seeing what you are talking about, but are you saying it’s just that they are depleted and could be refueled like how many bbers go from flatter muscles dieting to filling them back up for a contest, or are you thinking its a permanent structure thing?
[quote]fd24 wrote:
…because paying that price is ridiculous as we have all agreed. [/quote]
I still disagree. I think of it as education. In my line or work I often need to learn a new skill for my job. I could spend a couple of weeks figuring it out on my own, and learn from my own mistakes, or I could go to a training seminar (which usually run in the ballpark of $2500) and make better use of my time.
Paying for a coach is very similar I think. Martin’s clients probably decided that it’s a better use of their time to pay for his service and get an education that would take them a very long time to learn on their own.
[quote]MODOK wrote:
[quote]165StateChamp wrote:
I’m going to break down your original post line by line. You should feel flattered because I never do this for anyone 
“Unreal. It seems like Prof, CC, myself, Stu, and several others are the dumb ones. We’ve been giving our shit away for free on here for years… could have been RICH by now on the backs of the gullible.”
Correct me if I’m wrong, but to me it seems you’re saying Martin Berkhan has given out minimal free info on his method and hasn’t helped very many people compared to you, PX, C_C and Stu from a nutritional standpoint. My viewpoint is the complete opposite. Multiple people have said that you can get the basics of his plan from his website. Can you, PX, Stu or C_C provide a single example of a transformation that matches one of Berkhan’s? Matter of fact, Stu charges for his services. PX (no offense to you, but this is the truth and I’m sure you’d admit it) has very limited knowledge on the specifics of diet and C_C is fairly clueless as well.
“Of course we can still sleep at night so maybe its a wash.”
Correct me if I’m wrong, but to me it seems you’re saying Martin Berkhan’s actions are so unconscionably wrong that he should find it hard to sleep at night. Really? When he’s helped so many people for free?
“This guy knows nothing extraordinary that would justify this money. He’s simply an ectomorph who cleaned up his diet and got shredded. There are no tricks. “Diet holidays” aren’t magical…pick any days you want. The cheesecake is just a marketing tool.”
I actually agree with a lot of this quote. There is nothing magical about what Berkhan does. There are many, many ways to get lean. He really isn’t justified in asking for this much money. But, the man is not an ectomorph and what he has managed to do with his body naturally is much more impressive than you give him credit for.
What exactly is so terrible about skipping breakfast or fasting for a few hours before bed? I agree that when it comes time to eat 3000/4000/5000 calories a day it is far easier to split that into multiple smaller meals. Berkhan doesn’t really seem to go into that aspect of things.
I understand that people can have differing opinions on how things should be done. My issue is with the way you chose to characterize the guy and trivialize his accomplishments. [/quote]
Thank you for breaking my comments down for me. I am obviously incapable of understanding what I wrote and need a know-it-all 20 year old to explain it to me. I think you need a remedial course in reading comprehension. I said I agreed with skipping breakfast or dinner, etc. for fat loss. And professor x and CC are certainly not “clueless” about nutrition. You are enamoured with the marketing of this whole idea for some reason, and are probably the kid who stares at a christmas tree for hours because it has shiny, sparkly things on it.
And for you taking issue with how I characterized MB and “trivializing his accomplishments”…well, I just don’t give a shit.
[/quote]
Breaking down your comments like that wasn’t meant as an insult in any way. I just meant to make it easier for you to read. If you can point out a specific quote where you agreed with skipping breakfast or dinner, that would be great. All I saw was a comment about how it was something ‘Oprah chicks’ do and we all know what the view is of ‘Oprah chicks’ on this site. I’ll break it down for you though: it’s not positive.
C_C has specifically said he’s not knowledgeable about dieting down to single digit body fat. PX hasn’t come down to single digits either. His practical knowledge is not up to par as is evident in his physique.
Christmas tree thing…I specifically said there was nothing ground-breaking or magical about what Berkhan does. You are making up stories in that regard. And please, try to be an adult. You’re the one casting aspersions because of my age but you can’t get through a single post without trying to insult me. Seems real mature to me.
[quote]ethanwest wrote:
Martin’s clients probably decided that it’s a better use of their time to pay for his service and get an education that would take them a very long time to learn on their own.[/quote]
Something like, eight months, perhaps?
[quote]MODOK wrote:
[quote]Oregand wrote:
[quote]MODOK wrote:
So, the real essence of IF is this: it doesn’t matter if you eat 6 meals or 3 meals or 1 meal, its about total macros right? (I personally believe this is completely wrong for a bodybuilder. There are many physiological points that MB does not either take into consideration or know about. But I digress).[/quote]
Id be very VERY grateful if you could elaborate on this MODOK. In your opinion, having gone through years of this lifestyle what do you feel is personally right about the “it doesn’t matter how many meals, just macros”?
Its probably a very newbie question but Id still be very interested in hearing your take on it.[/quote]
Thats the centerpiece of intermittent fasting. They claim that 3000 cal and 200 g protein is the same whether you eat it for dinner or spread it out over multiple feedings. They have some short-term studies which they use to back up this idea (never a good idea for justification of something you are going to do for the rest of your life). For fat loss, for a few months, I think it CAN help. You allow your SNS to dominate for a few more hours during the day, mobilizing more FA for energy.
You will not maintain the biggest, fullest muscle bellies at a lean bf though. There is simply too much total time that glucagon is running the show for that to happen. Insulin cannot overcome this with such a limited window of time to work. People get lean, but their muscles develop a stringy look. Thats fine for people who want to look like MB or Brad Pitt…not so much for bodybuilders who need full muscle bellies.
Another big issue is AM cortisol levels. Fasting through the morning allows cortisol to remain elevated far too long…with numerous deliterious effects to the physique. [/quote]
Good stuff!
[quote]165StateChamp wrote:
C_C has specifically said he’s not knowledgeable about dieting down to single digit body fat. PX hasn’t come down to single digits either. His practical knowledge is not up to par as is evident in his physique. [/quote]
Why would my current development mean “clueless about nutrition” to anyone but internet warriors?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]MODOK wrote:
And professor x and CC are certainly not “clueless” about nutrition.
[/quote]
I didn’t even bother responding to that comment…but it is amazing how people think guys who have trained hard for several years, made more progress than average and have degrees in biology or medical fields…yet are CLUELESS about nutrition.
They really think like that though…which makes most discussion useless. It’s fun being spoken down to by people less educated. [/quote]
Dude, I know you went to school for all of this. But when have you been single digit body fat? Don’t you ask a lot of questions and need a lot of guidance when it comes to dieting down? You did fine getting big, but can you really say you have an equal or greater amount of knowledge when it comes to dieting?
I’m going to address the C_C issue like this. The man has never proved a single one of his claims. He runs from the discussion whenever this is brought up. I’ll be the first to eat my words and ask his advice if he proves himself. Until then, I don’t even address the guy. He’s the one who made 2x BW protein intake or higher popular on this forum! That’s not even necessary for most people.
[quote]Vicomte wrote:
[quote]ethanwest wrote:
Martin’s clients probably decided that it’s a better use of their time to pay for his service and get an education that would take them a very long time to learn on their own.[/quote]
Something like, eight months, perhaps?[/quote]
Dude…they need that time for more cheesecake.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]Vicomte wrote:
[quote]ethanwest wrote:
Martin’s clients probably decided that it’s a better use of their time to pay for his service and get an education that would take them a very long time to learn on their own.[/quote]
Something like, eight months, perhaps?[/quote]
Dude…they need that time for more cheesecake.[/quote]
But he won’t sell the recipe…
Not until…
He can get…
ONE MILLION DOLLARS!!!
On another note, I actually really like MB’s shit. I’m just kind of a smartass.
Keep the lulz coming!
[quote]165StateChamp wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]MODOK wrote:
And professor x and CC are certainly not “clueless” about nutrition.
[/quote]
I didn’t even bother responding to that comment…but it is amazing how people think guys who have trained hard for several years, made more progress than average and have degrees in biology or medical fields…yet are CLUELESS about nutrition.
They really think like that though…which makes most discussion useless. It’s fun being spoken down to by people less educated. [/quote]
Dude, I know you went to school for all of this. But when have you been single digit body fat? Don’t you ask a lot of questions and need a lot of guidance when it comes to dieting down? You did fine getting big, but can you really say you have an equal or greater amount of knowledge when it comes to dieting? [/quote]
I am not currently single digits. I am down 5" on the waist in the last few months with no apparent loss in muscle mass. If this means “clueless about nutrition” to you, you have issues. No, I have not dieted down to single digits in quite a while. What that has to do with being clueless about nutrition is still a mystery.
My knowledge of CONTEST DIETING is limited, but you would have to be extremely obnoxious and biased to call someone who actually has a formal education in nutrition, more than one degree in a biologically related field who works clinically along with several years bodybuilding “clueless”.
It’s cute.