Martial Arts

Training Powerlifting, Strength Sports
41

Kilgore your right.
There is not much need for max.power in point sparring.It’s basicaly a chess game of tag.Can i tag you before you tag me.Agility,quickness and accuracy are good qualities to have for point sparring.As Sifu said it can get rough.

I have seen guys get knocked out and faces punched/kicked bleeding all over the place but not to often.The question asked was getting about getting better for point sparring. You guys throwing around having power and strength for a fight and MMA are absoultely right though. Having strength behind a good punch or kick with good technque is a devistating combination and can end a fight fast, but not nessecarily needed in point sparring. For a well rounded martial artist that was just be part of the whole.

42

[quote]Steve B. wrote:
Exactly Rolo results are whats matter brother.Your post looks like you know what your talking about except i would argue that power in a strike does not come from close grip 3 board b.p.it come from the hips and pivoting them with some force transfering the energy/power to your strike.And all the other stuff you mentioned.Butwho throws a punch on thier back?It wouldn’t help the power in your punch like you would think because your back is supported on a base(the bench)and not standing up in a fighting stance.So you loose all that power with no base support.Sure you will develop your tris and chest but is that truly where the power of a punch comes from?Rolo come on you’ve been at this for years now. [/quote]

Hey, good to see this thread again. I don’t get to the site as often as I wish.

Steve B., I agree that the hips are involved, and that you never often punch with your back supported (except when mounted and trying to fight out). However, to ignore the triceps, shoulders and chest is to ignore a possible advantage. As for you saying that building strength up won’t improve power just isn’t valid. I’ve done it, sever others have done it, the science supports it. Also, I had 5 points to improving power, all of them contribute. That comes from experience bro, personal and observed.

Peace,
Rolo.

43

[quote]Soco wrote:
conorh

Yeah but if you miss your target, you will need to rapidly decelerate you punch or kick so as to not be off balance.

I’m not sure about this one, I would like to hear someone with alot of experience chim in on this.

Overall though westside seems to be the best for maximal strength and speed strength which are both of key importance in martial arts. [/quote]

Soco, you make a good point. Your nervous system is smart, it will not allow you to throw with more power then you can pull back. That said, one of the most often missed elements of speed is improving your decelerating power. If you are weak pulling, your nervous system actually starts the deceleration earlier in the strike.

Look at the fastest boxers and they all have great biceps and lats. I got a lot faster when I focused on explosive pulling. I feel the best results were observed with really fast horizontal pull-ups. (feet elevated as to keep my body horizontal at the bottom range of movement). As for bands, I say use them, address deceleration with pulling, but to each there own.

This is the very reason one does better by working the bag and doing shadow boxing in the air.

Fight well,
Rolo

44

[quote]Steve B. wrote:
Kilgore your right.
There is not much need for max.power in point sparring.It’s basicaly a chess game of tag.Can i tag you before you tag me.Agility,quickness and accuracy are good qualities to have for point sparring.As Sifu said it can get rough.[/quote]

Steve B., I gotta agree, I was a bit off the topic… sorry. At the same time, I guess T-Nation seems like a place where the power stuff would rein supreme, lol.

Rolo

45

I’m an old school Boxer and Martial Artist. What worked for me preparing for tournament competition was to train with the heavy bag and speed bag using 16 oz gloves. I also spared wearing them. I did road work running 400 yard sprints for about an hour or so every morning. I used weights and various machines for strength training in the afternoons.

I went heavy with low reps and sets along the line of 3 X 6-8 for small muscle groups and 5 X 6-8 for larger muscle groups at about 85 - 90% 1RM doing a 4 day split routine. I warmed up for about 10 to 15 minutes with skipping rope.

I know this sounds like a lot of work and it was. I was and I guess still am pretty fanatical about my conditioning but it’s served me well my whole life. I don’t compete anymore. I just like to stay in shape.

I learned to deal an ass whipping by taking a few. I can take a shot in order to deliver one. Not necessarily the best strategy in point tournaments but it got a lot of respect. I especially enjoyed when guys would try to feel me out in the 1st round. I’d hit them with a very hard shot right off the bat to get respect and it was a very successful move. I usually had them scared to take another one after that. With my roots in boxing I can punch pretty hard.

I also agree with several other posts in regards to people being great in the dojo and points tournaments and not being able to beat their way out of a wet paper bag in the streets. I knew a lot of people like that and still do.

I was a cop for almost 15 yrs and had lots of opportunity to apply my skills in the real world. It served me well in my law enforcement career and saved my ass a few times. Hence the user name of Ass Buster.

46

[quote]Steve B. wrote:
For a well rounded martial artist that was just be part of the whole. [/quote]

Heh, forgot about that.
It also makes sense for a martial artist to develop his maximal power, since some of the time, a martial artist will continue on to a full contact sport after his point sparring career is over.

47

I thought I’d chime in here with some (hopefully) good advice.

We need balance in everything as a martial artist…strength, speed, endurance, technique. To ignore ANY of these (for health, self defense, or point sparring) would be detrimental to the whole.

Personally:

For endurance I like to do HIIT sprints: 30 second MAXXXXXXX run…2 minute walk cool downs…and repeat for 7 times…Collapse. hehe. Usually AFTER form training.

For forms (or katas as other styles call them): Varies from veeerrrryyy slow…to very fast. Slow=precision and transition smoothness and strength, fast=fluiduty and balance.

For basic fighting (brawling) techniques, I’m trying some new method I recently invented/developed based on principles of CW’s programs. develops power, speed, endurance, technique, breath control, mental fortitude…I also work combos as well as single strikes.

For Raw strength I like to do compound lifting/movements. Again, I like CW’s programs like (SFM) but I do want some size to me so I use other ones as well.

Currently I’m trying to develop a way to incorporate all of these into one program (mesocycle). It’s going well, but still many kinks to work out. This is a GREAT exercise for me…to integrate science with traditional/spiritual…if it works, I can’t lose! (in terms of training…there will ALWAYS be someone better, faster, stronger, badder…etc).

But for actual fighting (I don’t spar…people get too big of an ego when they go against me…like they tell themselves “He’s good…I have ot try harder to BEAT him”…soon it turns into a REAL fight)…I like to do what I call “Matching”.

Sparring is tag…point sparring, as we know.

“Matching” is where myself and a good friend (the kind that we can draw blood and say “NICE” or “Good hit you bastard…COME ON!” and laugh at the same time) go at it until one of us scores a “DAMN good hit” (sometimes we don’t even stop THEN). It’s HARD striking but not FIGHTING hard. We pull punches but it still hurts like a sumbitch. I’ve had a few shiners on these days…on a few of those nights I had a date also…I can’t tell the real reason or the girl will think I’m crazy…lol.

Maybe I am.

I know I went a little off topic. My bad, but I wanted to contribute.

…we now return you to your regular programming.

TB

48

[quote]Trailblazer wrote:
Personally:

For endurance I like to do HIIT sprints: 30 second MAXXXXXXX run…2 minute walk cool downs…and repeat for 7 times…Collapse. hehe. Usually AFTER form training.

For forms (or katas as other styles call them): Varies from veeerrrryyy slow…to very fast. Slow=precision and transition smoothness and strength, fast=fluiduty and balance.
[/quote]

Seems like HIIT are becoming more popular for martial artists. I have a tournament next Sunday (I only found out about it yesterday), so during the upcoming week, I want to get in 2 sessions of HIIT.

Do you compete in forms? If you do, I’m curious about introduction. I’m still looking for a good way to walk into the ring, and a good way to talk to the judges. Just wondering what others do for this.

[quote]
For basic fighting (brawling) techniques, I’m trying some new method I recently invented/developed based on principles of CW’s programs. develops power, speed, endurance, technique, breath control, mental fortitude…I also work combos as well as single strikes. [/quote]

Sound very interesting! Can you please elaborate?

49

You want pure strength. Why? You should be getting plenty of aerobic and plyometric work from your classes. Outside of class is the time for very heavy weights and low reps. Do lots of sets to mimic sparring as much as possible. Move the weight quickly but controlled.
Finish by throwing a medicine ball.

The reason for this is that during lifts, your body naturally slows down right at the end of a lift (to avoid injury). The medicine ball can be thrown and your instincts won’t slow the throw. After all, you want to punch, not push.

50

[quote]kligor wrote:
Trailblazer wrote:
Personally:

For endurance I like to do HIIT sprints: 30 second MAXXXXXXX run…2 minute walk cool downs…and repeat for 7 times…Collapse. hehe. Usually AFTER form training.

For forms (or katas as other styles call them): Varies from veeerrrryyy slow…to very fast. Slow=precision and transition smoothness and strength, fast=fluiduty and balance.

Seems like HIIT are becoming more popular for martial artists. I have a tournament next Sunday (I only found out about it yesterday), so during the upcoming week, I want to get in 2 sessions of HIIT.

Do you compete in forms? If you do, I’m curious about introduction. I’m still looking for a good way to walk into the ring, and a good way to talk to the judges. Just wondering what others do for this.

For basic fighting (brawling) techniques, I’m trying some new method I recently invented/developed based on principles of CW’s programs. develops power, speed, endurance, technique, breath control, mental fortitude…I also work combos as well as single strikes.

Sound very interesting! Can you please elaborate? [/quote]

I don’t compete at all. NO forms, sparring or contact. I just enjoy the training and the growth in mental, physical and spiritual.

My greatest master explained to me why his school never went to tournaments. Individuals can go if they choose, and the school and teachers could and would help, but the school NEVER sent people to touneys. Once I heard his reason, I no longer desired to do it…okay, sometimes the desire to show off comes up, but then I remember his words…

About the program I’ve desinged…I’ll be happy to share it, but it will probabaly will be tomorrow…busy day and all. However I will say this:

  1. I’ve done MA for, I guess, a respectable amount of time…so once you get to a certain point you must work on your own. At taht point, the class is for technique work…not physical practice, because one is a teacher at that point. A teacher can’t practice and teach at the same time. The students suffer from the inattention.

  2. There is no school in this city I’m in…only Tae Kwon Do (I’m not knocking TKD, but I’m not partial to it), and a “mixed style”…i go to the mixed style occasionally to see if there is anything I can learn (usually small things that make the whole greater)…then go on my own again. I’ve taught and trained for a while so I feel this is okay…

Having said that…tomorrow morning look for what I’ve developed. I’ll post it on this thread.

I hope this does not sound arrogant, because it is not intended to be.

TB

51

You know, I’ve been thinking…maybe martial arts training should be more like bodybuilding. I was doing ABBH II with cardio/martial practice days in between and a day off after 8 days. I’ve enjoyed some AWESOME gains in size and strength in a short time…So, I’ve been thinking, why not for Martial Arts/fighting as well?

We deal with the SAID principle (Specific Adaptation to Imposed Demand, I think) when weight training/bodybuilding, right? So I figured Id try something different.

If the body adapts to training methods for bodybuilding or weight training or powerlifting how is MA any different? Our body should adapt to this too, right? So lets change parameters from what we normally do and make “cycles” just as in BB or PL.

Here is my thought:

Trailblazers Prototype Martial Arts Workout!

Day 1. Morning: HIIT Sprints or Distance Running or fast forms (katas)Changed them up every other day
Evening: Punches for Power. Singles. But each punch for 6 sets of 5. power in EVERY punch! Rest 1 minute between sets. Do every type of punch (jab, reverse, uppercut, etc)

Day 2. Total Body Weight Training (see CW?s TBT article), or GPP (depending on your goals). Then, Light and slow/easy form work.

Day 3 Morning: Same as day 1 but if you did sprints on day 1, change to dustance or fast forms.
Evening:Kicking for Power. Singles. But each kick for 6 sets of 5. POWER in EVERY KICK! Rest 1 minute between sets. Do every type of kick, Jab, side, shin, roundhouse, etc

Day 4 Same as day 2.

Day 5 Morning: Same as Day 1 and 3 except do something you did not do on day 1 or 3.
Evening: Punches for speed. Singles, but punch 5 sets of 5. Focus on speed ONLY!! Rest 1 minute between sets. And then Kicks for speed…5 sets of 5. Do 5 sets of a specific punch, rest 1 minute, then 5 sets of a certain kick. Repeat until all punches and kicks are worked.

Day 6: same as day 2, 4

Day 7 Morning: Nothing?day off of cardio. Sleep in, if you can. =)
Evening: Combine Day 1 and 5 and 3 and 5. Combos. First punch combos only the kick combos only (last move in the combo is power and quick recovery)…same protocol as day 5. Then combine kicks and punches. Same thing. Rest 1 minute between sets and exercises. Do…10 sets of 3-5 combos for each. Do BOTH sides as the forward position.
Also will do Form work and drills.

Day 8 REST REST AND MORE REST!!! When not certain?REST MORE!!!

Day 9 Same thing again

Repeat for 4-6 weeks then change…day 1 becomes day 3, day 5 becomes day 7, etc. Repeat for 4-6 more weeks.THERE…2-3 MONTHS of training…hmmm…

People may say that there is not enough martial work in this. Well, think of how many punches you know (I can personally name about 15 off of the top of my head). Now, we are doing 30 total reps of them 30x15=450x2 (due to practicing the OTHER hand)=900 punches on day 1. Do the same for day 3 for kicks (I can name at least 13 types of kicks) 13x30=390x2=780.

The distance running will begin at 1 mile at an 8:30 pace. Every week I will increase the distance and pace. Not sure of the increments yet.

Now, my big concern of course is overtraining so let me say first that I have a lot of free time currently (yes, I DO work and make good money for this area). I will sleep for at least 8 hours at night and have a 2 hour nap during the day.

I will eat like a horse. And rest like it?s going out of style.

To be honest, I’m still considering dropping the running in the AMs. The total volume of this program is VERY high and the chance of overtraining is possibly high as well. I am also considering making this an 8 day week meaning 2 WHOLE days off after each week.

ANY thoughts on this idea/program?
TB

52

[quote]Trailblazer wrote:
You know, I’ve been thinking…maybe martial arts training should be more like bodybuilding. I was doing ABBH II with cardio/martial practice days in between and a day off after 8 days. I’ve enjoyed some AWESOME gains in size and strength in a short time…So, I’ve been thinking, why not for Martial Arts/fighting as well?

We deal with the SAID principle (Specific Adaptation to Imposed Demand, I think) when weight training/bodybuilding, right? So I figured I?d try something different.

If the body adapts to training methods for bodybuilding or weight training or powerlifting?how is MA any different? Our body should adapt to this too, right? So?lets change parameters from what we normally do?and make ?cycles? just as in BB or PL.

Here is my thought:

Trailblazers Prototype Martial Arts Workout!

Day 1. Morning: HIIT Sprints or Distance Running or fast forms (katas)?Changed them up every other day
Evening: Punches for Power. Singles. But each punch for 6 sets of 5. power in EVERY punch! Rest 1 minute between sets. Do every type of punch (jab, reverse, uppercut, etc)

Day 2. Total Body Weight Training (see CW?s TBT article), or GPP (depending on your goals). Then, Light and slow/easy form work.

Day 3 Morning: Same as day 1 but if you did sprints on day 1, change to dustance or fast forms.
Evening:Kicking for Power. Singles. But each kick for 6 sets of 5. POWER in EVERY KICK! Rest 1 minute between sets. Do every type of kick, Jab, side, shin, roundhouse, etc

Day 4 Same as day 2.

Day 5 Morning: Same as Day 1 and 3 except do something you did not do on day 1 or 3.
Evening: Punches for speed. Singles, but punch 5 sets of 5. Focus on speed ONLY!! Rest 1 minute between sets. And then Kicks for speed…5 sets of 5. Do 5 sets of a specific punch, rest 1 minute, then 5 sets of a certain kick. Repeat until all punches and kicks are worked.

Day 6: same as day 2, 4

Day 7 Morning: Nothing?day off of cardio. Sleep in, if you can. =)
Evening: Combine Day 1 and 5 and 3 and 5. Combos. First punch combos only the kick combos only (last movein the combo is power and quick recovery)…same protocol as day 5 (Circuit fashion). Then combine kicks and punches. Same thing. Rest 1 minute between sets and exercises. Do…10 sets of 3-5 combos for each. Do BOTH sides as the ?forward? position.
Also will do Form work and drills.

Day 8 REST REST AND MORE REST!!! When not certain?REST MORE!!!

Day 9 Same thing again

Repeat for 4-6 weeks then change…day 1 becomes day 3, day 5 becomes day 7, etc. Repeat for 4-6 more weeks.THERE…2-3 MONTHS of training…hmmm…

People may say that there is not enough martial work in this. Well, think of how many punches you know (I can personally name about 15 off of the top of my head). Now, we are doing 30 total reps of them 30x15=450x2 (due to practicing the OTHER hand)=900 punches on day 1. Do the same for day 3 for kicks (I can name at least 13 types of kicks) 13x30=390x2=780.

The distance running will begin at 1 mile at an 8:30 pace. Every week I will increase the distance and pace. Not sure of the increments yet.

Now, my big concern of course is overtraining?so let me say first that I have a lot of free time currently (yes, I DO work and make good money for this area). I will sleep for at least 8 hours at night and have a 2 hour nap during the day.

I will eat like a horse. And rest like it?s going out of style.

To be honest, I?m still considering dropping the running in the AM?s. The total volume of this program is VERY high and the chance of overtraining is possibly high as well. I am also considering making this an 8 day week?meaning 2 WHOLE days off after each ?week?.

ANY thoughts on this idea/program?
TB
[/quote]

Aside from overtraining, that program looks pretty solid. I might try it out ;p

53

TB,

Great program. That will lead to some impressive results if you can handle it.

I would ask though, were is the sparring? Realatively slow sparring to feel out combos, and the full speed sparring. I would add the slow sparring for maybe 15 minutes a day, and the all out sparring at least once or twice a week. However, adding might be too much, and I would question what would have to go as a way to compensate.

I really want to hear about the results, any chance of some update posts?

Fight well,
Rolo

54

[quote]Rololicious wrote:
TB,

Great program. That will lead to some impressive results if you can handle it.

I would ask though, were is the sparring? Realatively slow sparring to feel out combos, and the full speed sparring. I would add the slow sparring for maybe 15 minutes a day, and the all out sparring at least once or twice a week. However, adding might be too much, and I would question what would have to go as a way to compensate.

I really want to hear about the results, any chance of some update posts?

Fight well,
Rolo[/quote]

THanks Rolo,

I actually took a respectable amount of time to work this program out. I think it may show.

About sparring…personally, I LOVE what I call “Matching” (see my post 2 posts previous to this one for the definition).

Sparring is cool too…however there are no people I can spar with now. Either they realize that i’m pretty decent and decide to kick up the intensity to “beat me”…or they are afraid of me…no shit. Even when I concentrate on using one arm/fist only, I still defeat most people in sparring.

NOT JOKING

I think the feeling out combos will happen when you do the combo day. As an experienced martial artist, we know what is good and what is crap, USUALLY!

When I spar or match without opponnent I slow shadowbox with “Mister Badass”. “Mister Badass” is a MONSTER-Genetic Freak who has taken the info on T-Nation and used it all. He’s also a LOT better, faster, and stronger than me. Always has me on the defensive, no matter what I do on offense.

This makes me notice my open/exposed areas more as well as analyze my own style. You can’t help but notice them while you consider what “Mr. Badass” will do to keep you defensive.

Eventually we can fast spar “Mr Badass” but it takes time to build up our own mentality of “seeing and thinking” for him.

I think sparring may have to come in on one of the “morning sessions” and replace some cardio work. REAL sparring (fast) can be a hella workout, so perhaps the cardio would get worked out well too. So I’d guess 30 minutes to a full hour of sparring to replace the morning runs/sprints.

Off to sleep (it’s midnight here in China) now. I just had to reply before I drift off…if I forgot something I’ll make up for it in MY morning…lol.

Sure I’ll update you on the program as i do it. However I’ll not tackle it until next week. This week is not condusive to beginning it. Where to post it, do you think…here or another thread (another thread seems egotistical…and on this one may be off topic)?

Stay strong in body, mind and spirit.

TB

55

kligor

They are not really my ideas, just what I picked up from something posted in the punching power thread(can’t locate now), where the author said that maximal and speed strength were key to striking power.

56

TrailBlazer,

That looks like a sweet program. I would post the progress/results in this thread, since we sort of made it “on topic.”

57

I have to hand it to you traiblazer you are certainly putting some effort.

My training nowadays doesn’t look anything like that.

When I was younger and going to the dojo I would do a set number of every type of kick or punch and/or all my forms. I find it takes a lot of motivation to keep up such a hectic schedule of training.

Other than my wieght training I don’t work out on a regular basis. Throughout the course of a day I will perform an undetermined number of techniques with a large percentage being the reverse punch, which in the last year and a half I can feel in a way that I only imagined when I was younger.

In the course of a day you can only perform a technique perfectly so many times. If you are not performing perfect technique you are doing aerobics.

That is why I don’t do a lot of set workouts anymore. I came to find that repitiously doing one thing became a bore and I wasn’t really perfecting my technique as much as I would end up going through the motions of a strenuous workout.

Now I might punch a few times, move into a stance flow into a kick, imagine a take down, etc… I won’t know what is next because my forms have become formless

I too am careful about who I spar with now. I can’t afford to get injured anymore and there are a lot of knuckleheads in the martial arts.

58

[quote]Sifu wrote:

In the course of a day you can only perform a technique perfectly so many times. If you are not performing perfect technique you are doing aerobics. [quote]

I agree with you. This is why I’ve broken the total reps into sets and allow for rest periods inbetween sets. Just as in lifting.

[quote]
That is why I don’t do a lot of set workouts anymore. I came to find that repitiously doing one thing became a bore and I wasn’t really perfecting my technique as much as I would end up going through the motions of a strenuous workout. [quote]

Again, I’m with you there. The “Boredom factor” is definateley a concern…some of these workouts (especially day 1) are long. Again, I’m hoping to minimize the “anti-perfection of technique” by the “set” idea.

[quote]
Now I might punch a few times, move into a stance flow into a kick, imagine a take down, etc… I won’t know what is next because my forms have become formless

[quote]

Being formless is the key to it all, as you know. However, I still like to do my forms to accomplish a few things like work on stance transitions (If there is one thing that bores the hell out of me it’s stance training).

TB

59

I’ll still practice my forms too. I figure if I can go through all of them and feel fairly good at the end of it then I haven’t let myself slip.

I think forms and other training can be a good replacement for aerobics. So I don’t usually do much specific aerobics. I’ll run some sprints from time to time. Running is a very under-appreciated form of self-defense.

60

[quote]Sifu wrote:
Running is a very under-appreciated form of self-defense. [/quote]

LOL! I agree.

I still remember an episode of a Japanese TV Show where they called running away the "Ultimate Technique!"

=D

TB