Oh, and I did something dumb. I was doing a cross, right round kick, cross combo. On the 2nd cross of one of the hits, I lost form. My hand hurts like hell to medial compression. I can punch and do everything without pain, but then if you push my 2nd metacarpal medially towards the inside of my hand, it hurts like hell. It should go away soon.
a 45 minute grappling class? that seems awful short. wrestling? bjj?
my classes are 1.5-2.25 hours, depending on the day and who is teaching.
Glad we can talk about this.
Okay, It’ll be easier to adress Ko first. I’m only 31. And, well to be honest, it is true that I’m still new into the martial arts…I’ve only been practicing for 9 years and teaching only two of them (I’m the newest Black Belt/Instructor in the school, but I take the job/honor VERY seriously…and let me say that A Black Belt is only a physical manifestation that one is ready to BEGIN the learning process)…and I am aware that, in all seriousness (and without a hint of sarcasm), this amount of time can still be considered an infant in the great journey that we address as martial arts.
Now, with that being said, if you consider Chi (or Ki, if you’d prefer it’s all the same idea/principle)…to be a mystical then I am a believer in they “mystical”. But I don’t think it is magical because it can be (and has been) explained by science and physiology…so it’s really a science once it’s explained logically according to Western beliefs and therefore, not “mystical” at all. Do you not believe in Chi/Ki?
Now (for all who are reading this), let me first apologize…I did kind of jump the gun a little and I meant absolutely NO offense to anyone…(many of my best friends are practitioners of many various styles, and I respect all them/and their styles)…it depends upon the person. Everyone is diffenent and what one style does for one person does not make it automatically appropriate to the next person.
Uh-oh I hope I don’t stick my foot in my mouth again, so I ask for tolerance as I attempt to make my points…and If my perscptions/observations are incorrect, please say your point so that I can better learn. I believe that as soon as we stop learning (or close ourselves off to the possibilities of learning), then our progression throughout our lives stagnates…life is about progress, not stagnation.
With that being said,depending upon the particular style one practices, mat time is necessary…say for grapling arts (Aikido, Jiu-Jitsu), but not as much time for the more standing-oriented arts. The practicing of perfecting each move for thousands of time somehow causes the body to react in the most appropriate manner in a high-stress-real-life situation. I’m not saying that I’d use all the stylistic (Crane,Tiger, Snake, Mantis, Dragon) aspects of it in a real situation (it’s a fight, not a movie), but punches and kicks are delivered with great power and the stances manifest themselves in the most appropriate ways…I noticed this in retrospect of the time I was jumped…Moves that I had practices thousands of times in forms and drills came out when they were needed. I’m trying not to be too vague, but it’s the best I can do to not write a dissertation about my experience (don’t get me wrong, I’ll be glad to explain if we need to).
Bags and mitts/kicking pads are wonderful tools for practicing. And drills are excellent for practicing techniques. But one cannot forget that in schools that do forms that there are contact forms and drills and that the benefits from these are wonderful as well and not just the physical applications.
Now, to address a topic that both of you seem to agree with Ko and Sakuraba. I too once believed what both of you said. But something in my gut said to just trust what I was being taught…that something was correct. Then when I got into the altercation and came out relativeley unscathed, I knew that Master and my instructors were correct.
But the concept was best put into words in the book entitled, “The Art of Fighting”, so please allow me to share a passage with you. (sorry, I don’t have the book anymore…shared with me by one of my instructors, so if you’d like the author, I’d be glad to find out)…it goes:
(this is more for your question, Sakuraba…I hope it can help me to make my point)
Martial Arts vs. Fighting Sports
The martial arts were not developed for the defense of soldiers
fighting onbattlefields. Neither are they sports. The combat that martial
artists practice is free of restraints, unless it is practiced as a fighting sport.
Boxing and wrestling have always been fought within the constraints of
rules, however rough and elastic these may have been. Martial arts
have one objective only: to neutralize an attack by any means, and as rapidly as possible.
Some traditional Masters object to the martial arts being converted
into sports. The attack that has to be pulled back instead of followed
through will be launched with less conviction each time, and so will be
weakened.
That is why, in most arts, there is so little sparring in the training
sessions. Planned and set series of movements may be practiced with a
partner, but the real art is so unpredictable and dangerous, it cannot
be practiced, even in body armor.
The Art of Fighting
About going to the ground, I have no want or need to go to the ground…with the friends getting licks in and kicking you when down…and personally I want to get out of a situation quickly (True, I WOULD…in my ego…like to hold one of the bastards until the cops got there, but usually in real life, that’s not too feasable, to be honest)
Please allow me to say in closing (I’m speaking too much) that the usage of gloves and padding may detract from standing fighting because gloves are notorious for altering the esact shape/compactness of a fist…or foot for that matter (in the case of a padded boot)…not to mention that real gripping/grabbing appears to be much less likley with these. Thanks for your time and patience. Peace.
PS…something tells me that I offended someone after all….
PPS I DO, however, look forward to continuing the discussion.
Hey, JWright,
Just be careful man, I’ve seen many schools whose instructors do more time practicing themselves instead of helping the students. Just something to be aware of…in my experience (only 2 years of instruction, so it is rather limited), it is VERY difficult (I’d dare to say impossible) to teach someone while physically practicing yourself. (It does take a great amount of effort to analyze and correct people…and how can one teach others when they are too pre-occupied themselves?).
Glad you’re having fun, dude. Peace
A lot of older MAists start to move toward the softer styles as they get well, older. The harder styles are punishing on the body in both short and long term. This has implications for correct conditioning & injury management. No problem for us right?
One problem I have found is the exclusive use of hand wraps makes the hands soft, unprepared for the power of the prime mover muscles and easily injured on the street. This is as bad as doing too much too soon. Some kind of conditioning needs to be done at intervals, preferably not during heavy bag work :).
Wraps and belts of any kind suck, at least when misused.
I have a hard time believing that in todays modern world with the gracie’s and the U.F.C’s there are still people like kungfudude.
You should check out Gracie in action series. Seriously, just do it.
When I was trading rounds with him, he was correcting my technique and giving me little tidbits of info. When I was holding the bags for him, he was teaching me things too. It wasn’t just beat on each other but rather he worked with me. I enjoyed it.
Yeah, the kickboxing and grappling classes tonight are both 45 minutes long. In grappling, you learn 2-3 moves a night, practice on each other, then Roll for about 15 minutes. The good part is if you want to stay, you can, because the dojo is open for another 1:30.
Man, my hand hurts like hell today. Last night, I could still punch and squeeze without problems. Today, it hurts to hold things really tightly. It’s like punishment for having bad form on a punch.
Kungfudude:
I respect your beliefs and don’t think you have insulted anyone with your posts.
That said, we just have different philosophies.
“…but the real art is so unpredictable and dangerous, it cannot be practiced, even in body armor.”
I’m not even sure how to respond to that.
For entertainment purposes only (this is NOT to prove a point)
http://www.bullshido.com - look under Top 5 Downloads on the left for some funny style vs. style clips.
Man, this thread is going on forever. Kinda funny though… everyone has their own take on what ‘martial arts’ should or shouldn’t be and damned if they’ll consider other people’s POV. Personally, I don’t think you should spar until you have a good grasp of the basics of the style. That way you can avoid things like huring your hand during a free class. If the instructor is just throwing you to the wolves so to speak, without first making sure you know enough not to unintentionally hurt yourself or your partner, that sounds like a sales pitch to me. Sparring is fun, basics are not… which school are you more likely to sign up with: the one that lets you spar from day one, or the one that makes you practice techniques and stances for two years straight before free fighing? Which scenario is more likely to result in a talented, injury free fighter?
Also, I understand what kungfudude is saying about not sparring at all. HYPOTHETICALLY, let’s say I train a style that only aims techniques at the most vunerable areas of your body: the eyes, throat, joints, and groin. These are the only moves I’ve trained, and the only moves I’ll use in a fight. Furthermore, let’s assume once I connect with one of these areas, I’ve also trained linking techniques to attack the others, or permenantly damage the one I’ve come in contact with. Let’s also say that I’ve been doing this nonstop for 10 years. Do YOU think sparring against this system is a good idea? Are YOU going to volunteer? It doesn’t matter how skilled you are, I’ll hit you in one of these places eventually, and it isn’t going to be pretty.
In the end, it’s not the style, it’s the amount of training you’re willing to put in that’ll make or break you. As long as you’re happy doing your thing and not getting hurt beyond repair, it’s all good.
Universl:
I’m a little uncertain about the point you’re trying to make. You find it hard to believe that there are people “still like” me out there? I’m not exactly sure how to take that comment. Actually I think I do, but I would appreciate it if you would be more specific so I can appropriateley respond.
By the way, I have seen videos/commentaries/documentaries about the Gracies…as well as Shamrock and Cung Li. I’ve seen K-1 and UFC since back in the day when UFC had Gracie vs. Severn in the Superbout…and (in the same UFC) Tank Abbott got knocked on his ass by a roundhouse kick to the outside of the knee and then got pounced on. But nonetheless (in my opinon)it is still sport as defined by the quote I mentioned previously. Although the Gracies do take it to another level with their philosophies, but nonetheless it’s still preparation for a 1 on 1 competition.
Sakuraba:
you are definateley one cool cat, man…the MMA vs. Kung Fu was comical, wasn’t it? And that poor TKD never knew what he was getting into (but he was a tough one wasn’t he?) and the last one was definateley a real fight, know what I mean?..as for the rest, I’ll try to check them later.
Thanks for the words of affirmation, man, and, for the record, I repect your opinions as well…I just like to hear and discuss them…only in that way can we bridge the chasm that still separates fellow martial artists…
Travacolypse: That was RIGHT on when you said: “In the end, it’s not the style, it’s the amount of training you’re willing to put in that’ll make or break you. As long as you’re happy doing your thing and not getting hurt beyond repair, it’s all good.”
this is just one of my favorite subjects and I like to learn all I can, which is why I press the issue…I look forward to continuing this. Peace all.
I’ve been where you are, diligently praticing my techniques/forms, for the day when I am confronted by an assailant. End result? A lot of techniques that I have long since discarded and forgotten. they may work against some hack who has no training in the fighting arts, but against a serious fighter, no chance. Joe Lewis said it best, when he said "
" We used to hear these karate guys say things like " well I’ll jab you in the eyes" or “I’ll kick you in the groin”. but the reality is that when a 230lb linebacker rushes you in a street fight, you cannot stand there and calmly pinpoint a finger strike to the eye or deliver an accurate groin kick. Not even a high level balck belt can do that."
I’m sure your art is very good for a Kung Fu style, and if you enjoy it, stick with it. But I also highly advise you to try some other styles. Step into a MMA studio some time and get a roll in. I know from personal experience, that it will be an eye opener.
I too used to study at a rather traditional Karate dojo in Japan, earning my dan rank there -
but the after joining an eclectic group that does bjj/judo/wrestling/kickboxing I can say that while learning traditional forms & techniques have their place,
if you want to learn something practical you MUST know what it feels like to hit and get hit hard. you MUST experience someone trying to take you down at full speed & power.
You gotta know how to deal
otherwise if that occurred in the street the results might not be too pretty.
that said, traditional styles do have various and many benefits.
To be honest with you, I don’t know if I really want to train in a “traditional style”. It will take years to get to a level of respectability. It took kung fu dude 7 years to become a black belt, and I don’t even know if I’ll be in St. Louis for that long. Plus, I don’t think I’ll have the patience to do the testing to advance in rank. It sounds like the American Way, but I want results now. I want to be able to apply it right now, if I were to get into a fight.
I don’t know if I’m going to be fighting in events, but rather just do it because I enjoy it.
If you stick with the BJJ/Muay Thai combo in some form or another I predict that you can beat KungFudude or his teacher in a fight in six months. In a year, you could probably do it effortlessly.
/Jacob
Update: I signed up at this gym!!
It’s $77/month for unlimited classes. Within 3 years, I should have a black belt in Karate, and be extremely well versed in at 2 of the following: Muay Thai, Grappling, Kickboxing. Karate, Grappling and Kicboxing are all offered on the same night, back to back to back. Muay Thai is M and W, 7:30-9. Sparring is Saturday mornings, which I won’t do for at least a couple of months.
Their basic philosophy with the program I am on is that Karate includes Karate (duh), kickboxing and grappling. These 3 areas make an all around fighter, whether it be for sport or if you just love the art. I’m totally excited.
Tonight, I only went to grappling because I hurt my damn hand last night at Muay Thai. I’m going to buy some wraps and gloves tomorrow night so I don’t get hurt again. Oh, and I have freakin bruises on my forearms from the instructor kicking them, THROUGH THE PADS!! Yeah, he’s a pro fighter, and damn, I wouldn’t want to mess with him ever.
Thanks everyone for the advice!! Watch out UFC here I come!!
Yeah right. I’d get killed.
Okay…first of all:
I feared that someone would turn this into “so-and-so can kick your ass…oh yeah? Yeah” Or “My style is better than your style”…Childish shit, man.
Rep9210…man, I’m really trying to be level headed about your comment because it was uncalled for and just shows you ignorance. Let me ask you why you have such an unfounded opinion when you don’t even know about me or my Master. Maybe (or not) we were in elite military units…maybe (or not) either or both of us are the size and cut of Shamrock. An intelligent person thinks before they speak…allowing for the possibility of the unknown. Also, if you think a traditional school fights out of “stances” or something, let me assure you that you could not be more wrong…any traditional master will say fighting and practicing in low stances is stupid…if you want low stances, go to Modern Wu Shu school or something…you don’t want to learn to fight.
It appears to me, Rep9210, that you are foolishly stereotyping what you may have seen when you see someone who has limited training in a complex style, who goes against someone who has a more “quickly attained” style. Not everyone has the aptitude for fighting, and those that do (in my traditional point of view) don’t like to show it because it’s not too nice.
Ko: I can appreciate your quote of Joe Lewis…and any true master (traditionial or modern) will agree with it. Yet in addition to that, a true master may just not allow that situation to occur. One of my Master’s best friends, a Kum-do master, once demonstrated this by the analogy of the pre-fight fight and the actual fight. We just have to be humble enough to know that we were victorious in the pre-fight fight…judging by how our opponent stands (offensive or defensive) and how they act in the moment. We know if we won within the initial contact before the actual blows are thrown (ironically, this speech was given on the evening of a night that I had that very experience only a few hours after).
In addition I have noticed that the logical thought process slows down the reaction time and is actually detrimental in a fight…you may want to kick someone in the groin but it may not be the most appropriate thing to do…by forcing what we want to do limits what we should be doing. So that speech by Lewis seems to address the fighters who try to force a move…just see how many times a quarterback tries to force a pass into tight coverege…rareley does it work out.
Now, please allow me to say that just because a school is deemed traditional does not mean that there are not ground/throwing/grappling techniques…part of our training includes Chin Na. It was shown to the traditional students as part of the cirriculum as well. As far as I can tell, in all non-opinionated honesty it is a very well-rounded school.
Now, I’m beginning to agree with some of you when you say stuff like kuri’s excellent point:
"you MUST know what it feels like to hit and get hit hard. you MUST experience someone trying to take you down at full speed & power.
You gotta know how to deal
otherwise if that occurred in the street the results might not be too pretty. "
(just remember, I’m still not for free sparring…I believe these quotes can be accomplished in drills)…
You know, I just realized that a school can only go so far…it’s actually the student/practitioner who decides how far to truly go. Just because I may want to be hit hard/full force in drills does not mean that the next person wants the same thing out of their training…or that they are as determined as I am. Where I train, it’s up to us how far we wish to go with training…Hey, if you don’t want to put in the pain you don’t have to but you won’t get the full benefits…but that is the individual’s choice. To me it makes sense that not everyone is worthy of the true techniques…and only those who trly desire to know will succeed and prove worthy.
You know…before I discovered the school, I trained in Greco-Roman wrestling (3 seasons in High School…another lifetime ago), then trained street fighting with freinds for about 2 years (that had Boxing, Muy-Thai and Shotokan Karate basings)but then I discovered the Kwon, where I found balance, power, and form (all 3 are in life and fighting). When I got jumped, in retrospect, to the best of recollection, not one of my actions reflected any of these prior learnings. Maybe it’s better to learn to street fight first then go traditional to refine and find power and balance…and philosophy and spirituality…Hmmm…any thoughts?
Jwright:
I can respect your decision…I wanted it at first too…all I’m asking is to
-
Respect all arts for what they are…even the testing process of traditional schools has benefits for your whole life, in general.
-
Keep an open mind…
-
Continue to grow as a person using your arts as a vehicle for growth.
- Stay cool.
- Have fun, man.
Peace and health to all.
Jason
hey, Jwright,
Did your instructor suggest the hand wraps? If not, please scroll above a few posts and note what O’Shea stated about wraps…and consider it, man. In confrontations, you should be conditioned (toughened) against damage. And occasional (small) injuries are great tools for learning correct form…such as the correct fist position…
Just something to consider, man…
peace
You learn valuable things in freesparring. I learned that when I was sparring with 30 year old, 6’7" guys who were all legs (me at 15 and 5’9", at the time), I was going to get hit in the chest, hard. I also learned that if I took the kick, leverage would then be on my side, and I could get some in.
Of course, that wasn’t a practical ‘real world’ example, but drills simply don’t account for all the variables of real world fighting. Sparring doesn’t, either, but it’s at least a little closer. When you do drills, it’s a likely thing that your partner is going to ‘expect’ such and such a block (because that’s the drill) and simply comply with it. That is not real world training.
Hey man, Don’t worry about becoming a black belt, the belt system is all bullshit anyways, by the time I was a purple belt in Kung Fu I was defeating black belts in sparring matches. It’s just about knowing what to do in the shortest amount of time possible and not hesitating. Don’t think about fighting, just fight, that is what my instructor told me. It should be instinctual. Memorize only a few moves and get ultra good at them so you do them instinctually when the time is right. You don’t want to be thinking to yourself “should I do a front snapping kick to the throght or a side kick to his floating rib.” Just DO. Don’t worry about ground fighting too much either, in a 2+ opponent match, if they got you on the ground you are already dead. Kung fu = block then strike then move to cause the most possible damage in the shortest amount of time. If you jab at a guy’s face he is focused on your arm, meanwhile your foot is coming at his face full force. Things like this work almost everytime against the common ‘hoodlums’ that you will encounter at a bar or on the street. Other styles I have no idea about except karate, my school was hardcore against the teaching of Karate, my instructor said “In Karate, the strongest guy always wins, in Kung Fu, the smartest does.”
Dawg, you seem to be saying that Karateka train only for brute strength? Not from my yrs of experience in Japan.
Anyway, I’ve seen guys with streetfighting backgrounds who did well in MA schools & many who didn’t. the ethical teachings sometimes had no effect.
All depends on the person.
and as others have pointed out its good to know what it feels like to hit without gloves or wraps, and to kick with shoes on. the less surprises in the real deal the better.
probably better to deal with small injuries that may result in training now than be unprepared.