[quote]ude garame wrote:
I’m a BJJ fighter with a strong background coming for 6 years of thai boxing and judo.
I’ve been in some fights and each time so far I have either knocked the guy down or thrown him on his head.
I’d say go for judo or boxing and get a decent teacher. [/quote]
Judo is nasty man. Always one the most underrated arts in my opinion. A good judo player is one person I’d think twice before fucking around with.
Yeah, the only real issue with Judo these days are all of the stupid rules that the IJF has imposed which eliminate a lot of practical throws/takedowns and stuff like rolling Ippons. If the school is all about competition and as a result leaves this stuff out of training, then I’d say something like wrestling (Greco and Freestyle place more emphasis on the throws than Folkstyle), Sambo, or Shuai Jiao would all be good alternatives for learning standing throws. If the Judo school remains true to the art’s Martial roots though and focuses on effectiveness rather than staying within the IJF rules though, it’s a great art.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
[quote]zecarlo wrote:
You have to make a distinction between street fights and self-defense (crimes) and also, when it comes to crimes, a distinction between assaults and other crimes. [/quote]
Do I? A possible self-defense situation can turn into a streetfight, which can then turn into an assault if I don’t know force continuums. They meld pretty easily.
That being said, I don’t know what this has to do with my post, other than that if you get my buddy on the ground, I’m going to kick you in teeth and the fight will be over.[/quote]
The implication being that:
A.You and your buddy are always together.
B. That the other guy doesn’t have two buddies with him.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
[quote]zecarlo wrote:
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
[quote]zecarlo wrote:
[quote]Ranzo wrote:
Well even if you took the stance that 90% of fights went to the ground I would steer away from jyu jitsu in favor of submission wrestling, pancration or something like that. The thing that helps my ground fighting the most is wrestling. [/quote]
But would you tell a 40 year old woman who weighed 110 pounds to start wrestling for self-defense? The thing that needs to be remembered in regard to BJJ is that it was created for smaller, weaker people to survive against bigger, stronger people. [/quote]
Oh man. Here he goes. Fuck it. I’m done.[/quote]
Why? Am I saying you should do BJJ? Am I saying anyone should? I’m just saying that what someone chooses to train should be based on what will work for them. YOU would teach an 8 year old how to box and then tell them him if he is approached by a strange adult that he should fight him? [/quote]
I didn’t say any of that. But are you saying BJJ is going to save an 8-year-old from a strange adult? Seriously?[/quote]
No, but your stock answer to everything is boxing. You are guilty of what you accuse others of. Just as you can say there are situations in which you don’t want to go the ground (and BJJ doesn’t teach to always do so anyway) there are situations in which you wouldn’t want to stand and strike with someone.
[quote]magick wrote:
That’s why I find BJJ and its claim disingenuous to the extreme. Technique is king? No shit, the same is true in every other martial arts. It’l allow you to beat bigger people? No shit, the same is true for every other martial arts.[/quote]
That isn’t exactly true. Royce Gracie could have trained in any striking art for 20 years instead of doing BJJ and he would not have won the first few UFCs. Murilo Bustamante fought Tom Erikson to a draw after 40 minutes. Put PBF in a time machine and put him in Bustamante’s place and he doesn’t last 2 minutes.
[quote]zecarlo wrote:
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
[quote]zecarlo wrote:
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
[quote]zecarlo wrote:
[quote]Ranzo wrote:
Well even if you took the stance that 90% of fights went to the ground I would steer away from jyu jitsu in favor of submission wrestling, pancration or something like that. The thing that helps my ground fighting the most is wrestling. [/quote]
But would you tell a 40 year old woman who weighed 110 pounds to start wrestling for self-defense? The thing that needs to be remembered in regard to BJJ is that it was created for smaller, weaker people to survive against bigger, stronger people. [/quote]
Oh man. Here he goes. Fuck it. I’m done.[/quote]
Why? Am I saying you should do BJJ? Am I saying anyone should? I’m just saying that what someone chooses to train should be based on what will work for them. YOU would teach an 8 year old how to box and then tell them him if he is approached by a strange adult that he should fight him? [/quote]
I didn’t say any of that. But are you saying BJJ is going to save an 8-year-old from a strange adult? Seriously?[/quote]
No, but your stock answer to everything is boxing. You are guilty of what you accuse others of. Just as you can say there are situations in which you don’t want to go the ground (and BJJ doesn’t teach to always do so anyway) there are situations in which you wouldn’t want to stand and strike with someone. [/quote]
I’ve acknowledged every limitation that boxing has over and over and over again. It fits my needs well, but everyone else’s mileage may vary. I have never made any bones about that.
Outside the ring, I never want to “stand and strike” with someone - I want to hit them once and get the fuck out before the cops come. BJJ, by its nature, breaks every possible rule for streetfighting - it wants you to engage further with the person instead of ending it fast and running away, it wants you on the ground, and it wants you in a crazy vulnerable spot when the third party arrives.
It is wholly inadequate in every single way for what you prescribe it for, and in my opinion, it is reckless that you tell people to choose that art for street defense. God knows how many you’ve said it to in real life.
[quote]zecarlo wrote:
That isn’t exactly true. Royce Gracie could have trained in any striking art for 20 years instead of doing BJJ and he would not have won the first few UFCs. Murilo Bustamante fought Tom Erikson to a draw after 40 minutes. Put PBF in a time machine and put him in Bustamante’s place and he doesn’t last 2 minutes. [/quote]
That was meant to be a comment saying that all martial arts generally adhere to that philosophy. A better boxer will win in a boxing match; a better judoka will win in a judoka match, etc.
Yes, BJJ is probably the best ground-based grappling art out here right now, and that anyone who is unfamiliar with it will get stream-rolled by a genuine expert. Which Royce Gracie undeniably is.
I never said BJJ sucks. I said BJJ is disingenuous for claiming that it is “special” (insert whatever you want there really, that’s the feeling I get from what they say) for having the quality that being more skilled is more important than being stronger/etc in that particular art. I’m pretty sure this is true for virtually all sports, up to a point. I don’t think anyone can beat some imaginary man with a 2000lb raw power-lifting total who also happens to compete in the 220 weight-class and is very athletic. Basically Batman without the superhuman intelligence and the martial arts training, I guess.
Regarding Royce Gracie in general- It’s simply wrong to say that “since Royce Gracie did super well with BJJ, anyone who does BJJ will do super well” (I know you didn’t say this). The man is the son of the man who is generally credited with CREATING BJJ. The man breathed and lived BJJ.
As I wrote, the why in your training matters. Royce Gracie trained BJJ in a manner that is absolutely incomparable to hobbyists. Hobbyists are hobbyists for a reason, and there’s nothing wrong with that. There is something quite wrong, and potentially dangerous, when hobbyists start to claim that their training can help them in hypothetical survival situations.
Which is why I find people saying that BJJ is the thing you should be training for self-defense purposes problematic. There seems to be some sort of mythic attribute given specifically to BJJ, when the case is more that most martial arts will help you assuming that you train them with the serious intent to use them for self-defense.
It’s like Ra’s Al-Ghul said in Batman Begins. “The training is nothing! The will is everything!”
=D
[quote]zecarlo wrote:
[quote]magick wrote:
That’s why I find BJJ and its claim disingenuous to the extreme. Technique is king? No shit, the same is true in every other martial arts. It’l allow you to beat bigger people? No shit, the same is true for every other martial arts.[/quote]
That isn’t exactly true. Royce Gracie could have trained in any striking art for 20 years instead of doing BJJ and he would not have won the first few UFCs. Murilo Bustamante fought Tom Erikson to a draw after 40 minutes. Put PBF in a time machine and put him in Bustamante’s place and he doesn’t last 2 minutes. [/quote]
That’s not really a fair comparison and I’m sure you know it. You cannot compare a fully grown man in his physical prime who spent his entire life in a family that lived and breathed Jiu-Jitsu to a 40 year old house wife. An average 40 year old woman would have gotten stomped in the first UFC no matter what art she studied (minus weapons stuff, which was prohibited); I don’t care if it was GJJ/BJJ, Boxing, Judo, Krav, Sento, etc… You still have to take the physicality/attributes of the two fighters into consideration. The Gracies also picked all of the contestants for the first few UFC’s; there were fighters in the US that would have stomped Royce but didn’t compete.
I would say though that if we are talking about only two guys fighting on a clear (no furnature, or other environmental obstacles) saft/padded surface, with no possibility of weapons or multiples, and with rules that prohibit biting or eye gouging, that BJJ/GJJ does have a very successful track record. That’s not to say it still isn’t an effective skill set to have or couldn’t be appropriate for a real fight/self defense situation, but let’s be frank and admit that even those few rules and environmental conditions (which admittedly were far fewer and therefore far more realistic than what we see in MMA today) don’t make a big difference.
Good Ole Royce. I have spent more than a few days with him in my training. I think if you could get him in the right mood you would be surprised what he might tell you about the UFC and Jyu Jitsu. Trust me when I tell you he knows the difference between fighting in that cage and fighting in the street.
He puts a lot of emphasis on self defense techniques. Everything from Choke defenses, grab defenses, bear hugs etc. Most of them are pretty effective as well and I have adapted some of them over my Krav stuff but for the most part I feel better doing Krav in a violent situation. Also not one technique involves going to the ground with an opponent. In many techniques you open that as an option but you also have the option of leaving that situation and running away. Royce can submit you and never ever leave his feet.
[quote]Ranzo wrote:
Good Ole Royce. I have spent more than a few days with him in my training. I think if you could get him in the right mood you would be surprised what he might tell you about the UFC and Jyu Jitsu. Trust me when I tell you he knows the difference between fighting in that cage and fighting in the street.
He puts a lot of emphasis on self defense techniques. Everything from Choke defenses, grab defenses, bear hugs etc. Most of them are pretty effective as well and I have adapted some of them over my Krav stuff but for the most part I feel better doing Krav in a violent situation. Also not one technique involves going to the ground with an opponent. In many techniques you open that as an option but you also have the option of leaving that situation and running away. Royce can submit you and never ever leave his feet.
[/quote]
Yea, that’s the thing about the Gracies: those dudes are born fighters. Using them as an example of how effective BJJ can be is like using Sugar Ray Robinson as an example of what a killer a boxer can be - not a fair comparison, because MOST people who box or do BJJ will never reach the point where they’re 1/100 as good as those guys.
[quote]Ranzo wrote:
Good Ole Royce. I have spent more than a few days with him in my training. I think if you could get him in the right mood you would be surprised what he might tell you about the UFC and Jyu Jitsu. Trust me when I tell you he knows the difference between fighting in that cage and fighting in the street.
He puts a lot of emphasis on self defense techniques. Everything from Choke defenses, grab defenses, bear hugs etc. Most of them are pretty effective as well and I have adapted some of them over my Krav stuff but for the most part I feel better doing Krav in a violent situation. Also not one technique involves going to the ground with an opponent. In many techniques you open that as an option but you also have the option of leaving that situation and running away. Royce can submit you and never ever leave his feet.
[/quote]
Oh no doubt, the Gracies fought lots of legitimate street fights and battle tested themselves and their arts. Their version of MMA (the first few UFC’s) was far far closer to reality than what MMA has currently become. Alas though, it was also never going to be accepted as a main stream sport and would have died out or been banned had it not changed and added all of the current rules (well, maybe there are a few stupid ones like the 12 to 6 elbow rule that could be scrapped and the sport would still thrive).
Truthfully…don’t we all need to find what works for us as individuals? There is no such thing as an “ultimate” martial art. The vast majority have their good points and bad points, and you have to find one that works for you.
For example…I envy boxers. Much like the OP, I know I have slow reflexes, I’m a horrible counter-puncher, and frankly, I’m somewhat flat-footed. I admire the punching power and footwork that boxers develop, as well as the excellent sense of timing and shot placement they develop. It’s just never worked for me, because of my perceived shortcomings.
So, over the years, I learned to use my size to my advantage. I like to crowd people…force them into knee and elbow range, where speed and reflexes don’t count for as much…but striking power does. I believe people used to refer to this as “trapping range”, but I hear it more referred to as “pummeling range” now, and I think that more accurately describes it. I’ve actually tried a couple different arts that worked in that range…Muay Thai, JKD, some Krav Maga, even some Keysi Fighting Method…a lot of arts spend some time in that range and I’ve tried to learn different options for getting there and different tools to apply once I’m in. (For the record, I don’t favor one over the other…KFM is VERY unorthodox, though.)
Once I found that I was pretty good at that range, I also learned some of the more “explosive” throws and takedowns one finds in wrestling. Since I like to power clean and deadlift still, I found that they suited me. Then I just started to learn submission wrestling, and went from there. I have found that I really enjoy the submission wrestling stuff, but that is more useful for my line of work. For a street fight, I’ll stick to the knees and elbows…maybe a few of the more violent wrestling throws, which are obviously going to be made worse for my opponent by landing on concrete.
So…I would say finding the “right” art is all about a little experimentation and self-discovery. What works for me obviously won’t work for the 110 pound woman being assaulted. But…teach that woman a blade oriented art, and she’ll probably do very well. Actually, with any woman that was serious about self-defense, that’s probably exactly where I’d start…some form of art that emphasized the blade. I have found that even women who are very skittish about guns seem to have no problem working with blades.
Anyway…I’m rambling. But, I would tell the OP to try different stuff til he finds one that “fits”. You’ll know it when you do it.
[quote]mapwhap wrote:
Truthfully…don’t we all need to find what works for us as individuals? There is no such thing as an “ultimate” martial art. The vast majority have their good points and bad points, and you have to find one that works for you.
For example…I envy boxers. Much like the OP, I know I have slow reflexes, I’m a horrible counter-puncher, and frankly, I’m somewhat flat-footed. I admire the punching power and footwork that boxers develop, as well as the excellent sense of timing and shot placement they develop. It’s just never worked for me, because of my perceived shortcomings.
So, over the years, I learned to use my size to my advantage. I like to crowd people…force them into knee and elbow range, where speed and reflexes don’t count for as much…but striking power does. I believe people used to refer to this as “trapping range”, but I hear it more referred to as “pummeling range” now, and I think that more accurately describes it. I’ve actually tried a couple different arts that worked in that range…Muay Thai, JKD, some Krav Maga, even some Keysi Fighting Method…a lot of arts spend some time in that range and I’ve tried to learn different options for getting there and different tools to apply once I’m in. (For the record, I don’t favor one over the other…KFM is VERY unorthodox, though.)
Once I found that I was pretty good at that range, I also learned some of the more “explosive” throws and takedowns one finds in wrestling. Since I like to power clean and deadlift still, I found that they suited me. Then I just started to learn submission wrestling, and went from there. I have found that I really enjoy the submission wrestling stuff, but that is more useful for my line of work. For a street fight, I’ll stick to the knees and elbows…maybe a few of the more violent wrestling throws, which are obviously going to be made worse for my opponent by landing on concrete.
So…I would say finding the “right” art is all about a little experimentation and self-discovery. What works for me obviously won’t work for the 110 pound woman being assaulted. But…teach that woman a blade oriented art, and she’ll probably do very well. Actually, with any woman that was serious about self-defense, that’s probably exactly where I’d start…some form of art that emphasized the blade. I have found that even women who are very skittish about guns seem to have no problem working with blades.
Anyway…I’m rambling. But, I would tell the OP to try different stuff til he finds one that “fits”. You’ll know it when you do it.[/quote]
Very well said, Mapwrap,and you hit on a point that I always think about when I read the “ultimate art” discussions. The 'BEST" is what technique or strategy works at the time. A judo slam to the concrete, a straight right, armbar/wrist snap,armed response, or simply running away. I don’t need to be a “expert” to use any of those, but, I need to be familiar and learn what works and what doesn’t.(this is where I think RMA has an advantage) Anyone who is serious about survival, should find their niche, then branch out into other arts, picking and choosing what techniques work for them (IMO).
As a side note: I have also noted the affinity for women and blades(perhaps watching their mother’s prepare a meal in their childhood?) and agree with your opinion on training with a blade oriented art. I was fortunate to be able to train with a very good Kali instructor for a couple of years. Great training, especially in knife “defense and offense”. I always felt blade and stick training was excellent in sharpening the hand /eye coordination. Wish I had access to that training now.
[quote]mapwhap wrote:
Truthfully…don’t we all need to find what works for us as individuals? There is no such thing as an “ultimate” martial art. The vast majority have their good points and bad points, and you have to find one that works for you.
For example…I envy boxers. Much like the OP, I know I have slow reflexes, I’m a horrible counter-puncher, and frankly, I’m somewhat flat-footed. I admire the punching power and footwork that boxers develop, as well as the excellent sense of timing and shot placement they develop. It’s just never worked for me, because of my perceived shortcomings.
So, over the years, I learned to use my size to my advantage. I like to crowd people…force them into knee and elbow range, where speed and reflexes don’t count for as much…but striking power does. I believe people used to refer to this as “trapping range”, but I hear it more referred to as “pummeling range” now, and I think that more accurately describes it. I’ve actually tried a couple different arts that worked in that range…Muay Thai, JKD, some Krav Maga, even some Keysi Fighting Method…a lot of arts spend some time in that range and I’ve tried to learn different options for getting there and different tools to apply once I’m in. (For the record, I don’t favor one over the other…KFM is VERY unorthodox, though.)
Once I found that I was pretty good at that range, I also learned some of the more “explosive” throws and takedowns one finds in wrestling. Since I like to power clean and deadlift still, I found that they suited me. Then I just started to learn submission wrestling, and went from there. I have found that I really enjoy the submission wrestling stuff, but that is more useful for my line of work. For a street fight, I’ll stick to the knees and elbows…maybe a few of the more violent wrestling throws, which are obviously going to be made worse for my opponent by landing on concrete.
So…I would say finding the “right” art is all about a little experimentation and self-discovery. What works for me obviously won’t work for the 110 pound woman being assaulted. But…teach that woman a blade oriented art, and she’ll probably do very well. Actually, with any woman that was serious about self-defense, that’s probably exactly where I’d start…some form of art that emphasized the blade. I have found that even women who are very skittish about guns seem to have no problem working with blades.
Anyway…I’m rambling. But, I would tell the OP to try different stuff til he finds one that “fits”. You’ll know it when you do it.[/quote]
Very good post and important points.
Also, even within any given art individuals will have to likely appropriate the skills they learn to themselves through trial and error/experience. For instance had Mike Tyson tried to fight like Vitali Klitschko he never would have been world champ, and vice versa. So I actually don’t necessarily agree with you guys that “boxing” requires one to be Roy Jones or Floyd Mayweather in the speed and reflexes department. Yes, trying to fit into a mold that does not suit your individual strengths and weaknesses will likely not produce the desired results, but I don’t think you can really pidgeon hole systems based on one/a few examples.
Let’s take wrestling as another example, even at the elite level you’ve got someone like Karelin who was just physically superior to everyone he ever wrestled, a true athletic freak, and thus his style was all about just physically overwhelming/over powering guys. Sure he was also very technically sound (you really don’t go practically untouched in International competition for decades without technique), but it’s undeniable that his style was made possible by his superior athleticism and that a lesser athlete would not have been nearly as successful trying to emulate his wrestling style. On the other hand you’ve got someone like Ben Askrin or Gene Mills who would actually sometimes let themselves get taken down so they could create a scramble and wind up reversing their opponent and ultimately winning. Had Karelin tried to emulate such a style then he too would not have been the wrestler that he was.
You can find other such examples in pretty much any other Combat sport/Martial Art (judo, BJJ, Kickboxing/Muay Thai, Sambo, MMA, etc…).
I guess the point of my rant is that the OP shouldn’t shy away from doing an art that he may be interested in trying simply because a few example practitioners of that art don’t fit into the same “archetype” as him. If you have a good coach who understands how to appropriate the skills to different individuals and doesn’t just try to jam every peg into the same square hole, and assuming that the system actually provides for some opportunity to “pressure test” the skills to make sure that they work, then he should be able to gain some valuable skills.